How many and differances in Shaolin Kempo

[Danjo]

So, why don't the best teachers, with the hardest training, charge the most? By this logic, which I think is sound, they could. So why does that not work?

Because the students that are serious enough to put up with the hard training are not always wealthy enough to pay top dollar. Also, many of those that CAN afford such fees, are fairly pampered people and don't want to train hard.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

It's really two different things. GM Castro trained with Prof. Chow. He made a practice of writing down and systematizing his teachings. He called his art Shaolin Kenpo because that was the name of Prof. Chow's art at one point and he was allowed to continue it.

Shaolin Kempo has a different history. SGM Pesare trained for a couple of months with Victor Gascon to purple belt. He then moved back east and supplemented his training with TKD, Judo, escrima etc. and invented his own art that he passed on to Prof. Cerio. Cerio added some things to what he had from various sources including Mas Oyama's book, and passed this on to GM Villari. Villari added and changed things and called his art Shaolin Kempo Karate. Villari taught Mattera.

So aside from the name similarity, they don't have a lot in common.

So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Because the students that are serious enough to put up with the hard training are not always wealthy enough to pay top dollar. Also, many of those that CAN afford such fees, are fairly pampered people and don't want to train hard.

Dido. If my training was anymore i dont think i would be able to afford it. Im in college and everyone knows how that goes. I saw the prices of the other school that i mentioned and nearly laughed it was rediculous. To give you an idea of how much it was the monthy payments on a F350 powerstroke with no down payment would have been cheaper.

Thank you Hand Sword. I love my school it has given me a lot in the last couple of months. Im actually approaching my purple belt test as long my knee doesnt need surgery. So im pretty excited and nervouse at the same time.

B

 

[dianhsuhe]

"So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho."

No...

 

[Mariachi Joe]

"So is GM Castro's style more like Kara-Ho."

No...

Is it more similar to American Kenpo then?

 

[Danjo]

Is it more similar to American Kenpo then?

They're all just a bit different. Or a lot different depending. Look, Professor Chow taught a lot of people over the years. His Kempo evolved and changed over time to an extent and the various students he had took what they'd learned and went their own way with it.

GM Bill Chun Sr. learned from Prof. Chow back in the 1950's and Master Chun Jr. in the 1960's etc. GGM Castro learned from Prof. Chow in the 50's also. GM Kuoha, learned from Prof. Chow in the 1960's into the 1980's. They all also had other martial arts that they learned and they each did their own thing with the art. Each art therefore looks different than the other.

GM Kuoha has carried on the name of Kara Ho and has the blessing of Prof. Chow's widow and advisor as the one to carry on this name and system despite his additions of TKD type kicks etc. to Prof. Chow's original Kempo template (which, according to GM Kuoha, was given the blessing of Prof. Chow). If you look at the videos of Kara Ho, it has a lot of those high-flying kicks etc. that the other students of Prof. Chow do not.

GGM Castro, was a student of Prof. Chow's before Kuoha (1955-58) and he was also partners with Ed Parker for years too. He even recieved his black belt from Ed Parker originally. In 1970, he recieved his Grandmaster's certificate from Prof. Chow. When he started teaching Prof. Chow gave him permission to call his art Shaolin Kenpo which was a name Chow used to call his art back in the day.

Master Chun jr. inherited his system from his late father who was a long time student of Prof. Chow's and teaches a style of Kempo called Chinese Kempo (another name that Prof. Chow called his art back in the day) and it resembles what Prof. Chow taught to the Chuns.

When it comes to GGM Ed Parker and Sijo Adriano Emperado (both students of Prof Chow's from the early days), they changed what they taught so much from what they had learned from Chow that neither claimed to merely pass on Chow's teaching.

What you're going to find that is similar in the above mentioned arts is that each is "Technique Driven" rather than "Form Driven" and that each is rapid and leathal. They all emphasize flow and rapid strikes to disable opponents. etc.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

Thanks for the break down

 

[dianhsuhe]

Wow- Pretty good breakdown as far as I can tell...

I can only say that the "TKD kicks" that were incorporated into Kara-Ho were CHANGED by Professor Chow. I came from TKD originally and these kicks have little in common as far as execution.

Professor Chow saw Grandmaster Kuoha doing some high kicks while warming up before one of their training sessions and asked where he had learned them-- Professor then helped Grandmaster Kuoha to shorten the chambering, so the kicks are not telegraphed as much, and to snap and extend the kicks instead of swinging them. So while Professor Chow never seemed to utilize high kicks, he still had a hand in modifying and adding them to his Kara-Ho Kempo system. Same can be said with weapons--

Cheers!

 

[Danjo]

Wow- Pretty good breakdown as far as I can tell...

I can only say that the "TKD kicks" that were incorporated into Kara-Ho were CHANGED by Professor Chow. I came from TKD originally and these kicks have little in common as far as execution.

Professor Chow saw Grandmaster Kuoha doing some high kicks while warming up before one of their training sessions and asked where he had learned them-- Professor then helped Grandmaster Kuoha to shorten the chambering, so the kicks are not telegraphed as much, and to snap and extend the kicks instead of swinging them. So while Professor Chow never seemed to utilize high kicks, he still had a hand in modifying and adding them to his Kara-Ho Kempo system. Same can be said with weapons--

Cheers!

Thanks for the additional information brudda.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Mariachi Joe- There are more differences than similarities between American Kenpo and Kara-Ho Kempo. Parker changed about 90% of what he learned from Professor Chow and renamed the system.

Even if he did not change what he was taught back in the 50's forward, it changed without him up until Professor Chow's death in 1987.

Cheers

 

[Hand Sword]

I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?

 

[Mariachi Joe]

What did Parker add to his style, was it Kung Fu, Karate, or a grappeling art like Judo or Jujitsu?

 

[Hand Sword]

He was proficient in judo, but he added a Chinese influence to his style.

 

[dianhsuhe]

I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?

I am a b it confused by your post...Are you referring to what Parker changed or what changes occurred to Kara-Ho from the 50's to now?

If you are talking about Kara-Ho, try a search for "Kara-Ho" or "Kuoha". MUCH information is right here on MT from Grandmaster Kuoha himself.

 

[Hand Sword]

My posts through out the thread have been trying once again to re focus people. It has been once again attcking SKK via FVSSD, and USSD. The original poster asked what were the differences. It was hardly answered, in terms of the content of the styles themselves. Instead, it was assaults against the prominent members of those organizations. In place of specific differences, the business practices of the individuals have been the focus of what the differences are of SKK, as a style.

In terms of the members here, and their different styles of the Kempo family, sometimes within the same family, they have screamed about "changes" and just "how different" they are. Claiming their way has this and that, and that way doesn't, etc... When asked about the differences, it goes back to the assaults. I for one am tired of the pointless debating in the Kempo family. All of our founders could be and have been questioned in some form or fashion, at one time or another. The sad thing about this is, that real contributions to the sytems is overlooked, and could have real fruitful discussions, where all could learn something. The further truth, for all of us, which deep down we all know, is that they are far more similarities, yes, I said similarities, than there are differences. So, with that, I ask all, if any can speak of specific changes or differences to our sytems, IN TERMS OF THE STYLES THEMSELVES, then please, speak about what you've noticed, found out, experienced etc..

 

[KempoGuy06]

My posts through out the thread have been trying once again to re focus people. It has been once again attcking SKK via FVSSD, and USSD. The original poster asked what were the differences. It was hardly answered, in terms of the content of the styles themselves. Instead, it was assaults against the prominent members of those organizations. In place of specific differences, the business practices of the individuals have been the focus of what the differences are of SKK, as a style.

In terms of the members here, and their different styles of the Kempo family, sometimes within the same family, they have screamed about "changes" and just "how different" they are. Claiming their way has this and that, and that way doesn't, etc... When asked about the differences, it goes back to the assaults. I for one am tired of the pointless debating in the Kempo family. All of our founders could be and have been questioned in some form or fashion, at one time or another. The sad thing about this is, that real contributions to the sytems is overlooked, and could have real fruitful discussions, where all could learn something. The further truth, for all of us, which deep down we all know, is that they are far more similarities, yes, I said similarities, than there are differences. So, with that, I ask all, if any can speak of specific changes or differences to our sytems, IN TERMS OF THE STYLES THEMSELVES, then please, speak about what you've noticed, found out, experienced etc..

Hand Sword great post. I agree with you on getting back on topic, I too am curious about the differences. May I make a suggestion to get the ball rolling? Lets start off with specific examples of something from someones style. A SD tech, combination, kempo anything.

B

 

[Danjo]

I've asked this many times, and never get a definitive answer. Since everyone always talks about "Changes" That were made in their systems, and how they no longer look like they way Mr. Chow taught, What were those changes? Are they real changes, or is this mere " my instructor and style are legit" loyalty? Can anyone give real, substantive changes that were made, SPECIFICALLY?

Hand Sword, you're trying to kill all the fun. Oh well.

If we're talking about SKK and what is different from what Prof. Chow taught, I would say it is a lot different. SKK has had so many things added to it and so many things left out of it from the Kempo taught by Chow it hardly resembles the same art.

For instance: The pinans in SKK were never taught by Chow. They were, for the most part, taken from Mas Oyama's book, slightly modified, and inserted by Nick Cerio back in the 1960's. They are very Japanese in flavor. The "Katas" found in SKK were made up by either Walter Godin, Sonny Gascon or George Pesare depending on what version of their history you look at. The combinations/DMs were made up by the same people from scratch. They don't even look like Kajukenbo which is supposedly where they got the idea for them. The attacks are sternum punches done in a Japanese Karate style, rather than from a boxing stance and reverse cross punch.

All in all, a lot of differences from what it looks like to me. If you look at Bill Chun, Ralph Castro or Sam Kuoha's clips and videos, you see some similarities between them all even though they are all different from each other. There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Hand Sword, you're trying to kill all the fun. Oh well.

If we're talking about SKK and what is different from what Prof. Chow taught, I would say it is a lot different. SKK has had so many things added to it and so many things left out of it from the Kempo taught by Chow it hardly resembles the same art.

For instance: The pinans in SKK were never taught by Chow. They were, for the most part, taken from Mas Oyama's book, slightly modified, and inserted by Nick Cerio back in the 1960's. They are very Japanese in flavor. The "Katas" found in SKK were made up by either Walter Godin, Sonny Gascon or George Pesare depending on what version of their history you look at. The combinations/DMs were made up by the same people from scratch. They don't even look like Kajukenbo which is supposedly where they got the idea for them. The attacks are sternum punches done in a Japanese Karate style, rather than from a boxing stance and reverse cross punch.

All in all, a lot of differences from what it looks like to me. If you look at Bill Chun, Ralph Castro or Sam Kuoha's clips and videos, you see some similarities between them all even though they are all different from each other. There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.

Interesting, you have any clips of these styles? I would like to see them it would be interesting to watch.

B

 

[Hand Sword]

There seems to be a core philosophy of rapid-fire techniques that is lacking in the more Japanese Karate-like SKK. In other words, they all have more in common with each other, than they do with SKK in terms of appearance and execution.

I appreciate your response, and I'm sorry for ruining all of the fun

. However, this is exactly what I was talking about. Assumptions about each other. Through out my time, I have witnessed many Ken/mpo people. I have seen the rapid fire striking, and felt it too. Believe me, SKK does NOT lack this quality. The Karate Feel that you're taking about is present in the beginning stages, to build focus, and strength in technique. There is much circular flow, and intricacy added throughout your training, especially in what are referred to as "Kempos". I have also seen and felt certain SKK masters, and they don't lack the qualities you speak of. Witnessing the other "family" members in action, demonstrating their stuff, I've noticed that we all resemble each other in execution, when we let loose. Speed and power are not unique to one of the ways, or not trained for in any of the other ways.

 

[KempoGuy06]

I appreciate your response, and I'm sorry for ruining all of the fun

. However, this is exactly what I was talking about. Assumptions about each other. Through out my time, I have witnessed many Ken/mpo people. I have seen the rapid fire striking, and felt it too. Believe me, SKK does NOT lack this quality. The Karate Feel that you're taking about is present in the beginning stages, to build focus, and strength in technique. There is much circular flow, and intricacy added throughout your training, especially in what are referred to as "Kempos". I have also seen and felt certain SKK masters, and they don't lack the qualities you speak of. Witnessing the other "family" members in action, demonstrating their stuff, I've noticed that we all resemble each other in execution, when we let loose. Speed and power are not unique to one of the ways, or not trained for in any of the other ways.

Is Karate more linear than circular? Sorry for the newb question!

B