How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Chris Parker]

Okay…

I thought we already established that Iaido wasn't MA....

Really? Where did we establish anything of the kind? You made your uninformed views, based on highly limited and narrow personal interpretation of your own, ignoring the actual definitions and applications of a range of terms. In fact, I posited a different (and, if I may, more accurate and inclusive) definition, and asked how Iaido was not a martial art under that view… you didn't answer, and instead threw this up there?

Dude. Iaido is a martial art. Deal with it.

Actually, sujutsu,, or tosuijutsu-swimming in armor-is a "martial art."

Beat me to it, Elder! Gonna add some info later though…

Actually Tae Bo doesn't feature fighting components, since it doesn't teach you how to kick or punch properly. The purpose behind the kicking and punching in Tae Bo is purely for exercise purposes.

The primary drive behind Tae Bo is fitness… but it employs martial (combative) techniques… and, like any exercise, correct form is important.

Goju training completely revolves around those concepts. Everything you do is to teach you how to kick and punch properly.

Everything…? Methinks you might not have as deep an understanding as you believe…

Boxers are fighters. So if the goal is to make you a better boxer, the goal is to make you a better fighter by default.

Er… no. A boxer can be a fighter… depending on how you're defining or applying the term… but not necessarily. Elder's been dealing with much of that, but I might weigh in a bit as well… the important thing is that it might help you if you begin to realise that not everyone or everything matches or fits into your view of them… boxing, or being a boxer, isn't only what you think it is… nor are all boxers looking to be the same thing… some want to be fitter, some want to be a competitor, and would consider themselves an athlete first, some do want to be a fighter, some just want an outlet for various reasons, and so on.

Actually it does fit, since physical struggle is included within the definition of fighting, and traditional forms of Bjj have strikes/blows within the system.

Yeah… not so much, actually. The definition you gave of "fight" did mention "struggle", but not the way you're saying here… for one thing, it didn't say anything about "physical struggle"… nor did it say that such an idea was "included" in the definition… it was actually more limited than that (which is what I was highlighting), saying that "fight" was defined as "Take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons". In other words, the only form of struggle is a violent one which involves physical strikes (not grappling, holds, throws etc) or weapons… which doesn't match BJJ…

Now, to be clear, I was highlighting this as a way of getting you to realise that the definition you provided was limited, incomplete, and inaccurate.

Those are some very rare martial arts. I'm mainly talking about the more common/popular martial arts.

"Very rare"? Really? Kendo is "very rare", is it? Iaido is "very rare"? Do you know how many students there are of Kyudo outside of Japan? I'm aware of many groups here, in New Zealand, Europe, the US…

But the real issue here is that you're applying false and incredibly narrow definitions to everything in this thread… you're only applying a flawed and inaccurate dictionary definition of "martial arts"… same with "fight"… you're ignoring martial arts that you don't see the connection with (such as Iaido above, stating that "we had already determined it wasn't a martial art")… and now you're saying that you only want to deal with mainstream modern arts that you think match what you think martial arts are.

This isn't an issue of semantics, it's an issue of a complete lack of depth in understanding (which isn't a problem in itself) combined with a complete inability or unwillingness to improve upon that state of affairs (which is a problem if you're wanting to discuss these ideas). Seriously, you asked people who train in arts where the idea of "fighting" isn't so important to explain that to you… and are fighting against every answer you get.

The components of a system that enhance your ability to fight. For example, the stances of Karate, or the drills of Bjj.

Or the kicks and punches found in Tae Bo… or are you taking those single physical actions as being different from the single physical actions you're identifying in other systems? If so, how? What makes a kick in Tae Bo not a "fighting component", but the same kick in Karate would be one?

Then you're not doing Boxing the martial art. You're doing exercises derived from the martial art of Boxing.

Well, many boxers might not even consider themselves as doing Boxing the "martial art"… they'd basically say they're doing boxing… maybe the sport of boxing… but more to the point, no, they'd be doing boxing. Doing "exercises derived from boxing" would be doing something like shadow boxing externally from training in boxing itself… so… no.

Basically there's no point in discussing styles that are pretty much nonexistent outside of the confines of their home countries. Why would we waste time talking about Kyudo when most people are taking TKD or MMA?

"Non-existant outside of the confines of their home countries"? Ha!

No.

But, importantly, you only spoke about martial arts… you didn't make any restrictions of what martial arts we're supposed to talk about or not. So… no.

All of which is to make you better at kicking and punching.

Again… methinks perchance you may be over-reaching your understanding here…

In other words, nope.

Okay, so the goal for that particular training was to develop endurance and stamina. Again, an exercise derived from the martial art of Boxing, not the martial art itself.

No, they were boxing for the benefits to stamina and endurance it gives (by being able to fight multiple rounds)… it wasn't anything "derived" from boxing, it was boxing. It just didn't have the emphasis you'd like it to have.

Wasn't there an entire article in the Aikido forum about how Aikido isn't a Martial Art anymore because its lost its fighting attributes?

Yeah, but that article was flawed… and was one persons perspective on what he saw as an issue within his own art, based on his experience in his early training, as well as witnessing more modern iterations of his art. In other words, you missed the point of the thread, the article, and more… only wanting to see what you could recognise...

Where did I say they were useless?? I said that there's better ways to reach the end goal of kata, which is general technique improvement.

The implication was throughout your posts… but, more importantly, do you really think that's the end goal of kata? Not in any way… general technique improvement is taken care of in other ways… and it's really not anything to do with kata…

Nope. Boxing is actually getting in the ring and boxing.

No, that is one aspect of boxing… and is a big part of the sport of boxing… but to say that that's the only definition of boxing is inaccurate to say the least.

Nah.

Yes. You should.

I mean if you want to seriously argue that someone doing Tae Bo is actually learning to hit someone, then you're being silly.

No, no-one said anything about someone doing Tae Bo learning to hit someone… but we have said is that they are learning how to throw strikes and kicks (and knees, and elbows…) within the context of Tae Bo.

So you can box without actually boxing? Interesting.

Not what he said…

I stand corrected. Goes to show there are many martial arts and some are unknown to many of us. Thank you elder999.

Ha, yep!

To give you a bit more information, there were a number of different forms of suijutsu in Japan over it's history… and, late in the Edo Period, the then-current Tokugawa Shogun formally named 12 systems as the "official" methods of swimming. Each system had it's own specialisation, such as swimming in a river, or in the open ocean, in armour, or not, and so on… and included Kobori Ryu (in the video linked by Elder), Suifu Ryu, Shinden Ryu, Iwakura Ryu, and so on.

Your welcome.

Funnily enough, "fighting" isn't important to suijutsu at all...

Ha, depends on the Ryu-ha…

Some did indeed have an emphasis on fighting as part of their methods… others didn't. Some taught methods of calligraphy in water (treading hard enough to raise you up out of the water, to keep both brush and paper dry, in order to write messages)… others included Kyujutsu… and so on.

Here's a clip of Iwakura Ryu, showing a range of the aspects that can be found in the skills of Suijutsu:

You got any video examples of this grappling outside of demonstration purposes?

This is on you-tube, so you know it's real… oh, but ignore the title… this isn't from Judo…

I can punch a bag and jump rope all day, doesn't mean I'm boxing.

Sure… but doing that can be part of what you're doing when you're training in boxing… so…

That discussion was about martial art schools (particularly MAs associated with MMA) considering themselves places where one can learn self defense. Kyudo's stance on self defense doesn't mean a whole lot in that discussion.

Er… no. Nothing like that was said at that point.

Agreed. So what point are you trying to make here? My point is that you can do the exercises derived from boxing, but you're not doing the martial art of boxing unless you're actually boxing.

No, the argument could be made that you're not doing the sport of boxing unless you're actually boxing/competing (doing it as a sport), but that's quite different to what you're suggesting.

by your definition?

for me i would be open to the idea of pretty much anybody calling themselves a martial art.

but i am more specific about whether that martial art is any good.

What do you identify as "good", though? "Good" for what? And does your appraisal actually have any bearing on the reality?

What I'm asking is that if you're qualifying arts as "good" for only containing what you are wanting to see, regardless of what is actually there… like critiquing a character-driven tearjerker for not having enough action or comedy… or a PG rated film for not having enough explicit sexuality… in other words, what you are looking for might not be the best way to ascertain whether or not an art is "good"…

By common sense.

You're training in baseball for example to hit or catch a ball across a field and score points for your team. You're not training in baseball to crack someone across the head with a baseball bat.

Say, here's something interesting…

Anthropologically speaking, all sports are originally derived from combat training, starting in tribal and village warfare, to give skills in co-ordination, teamwork, individual excellence, and more… so… all sports are, in a way, originally martial arts…

Boxing's goal on the other hand is to punch someone in the face and the body until that person is knocked unconscious. The training you perform in boxing is to become more efficient at knocking someone else out.

Not quite. That's boxing's application… the goal is quite different… or, to put it another way, the goals can be quite different…

Why exactly would someone learn boxing if their goal isn't to actually box?

Myriad reasons ranging from fitness, to fun, to a challenge, to an outlet, to, well, just having seen Rocky too many times as a kid.

People have their own reasons for things, you know… you don't have to understand them, just accept that people have their own reasons for things. Kay?

And when I say box, I'm not saying just in competition, i mean that they intend at some point to possibly use their boxing skills to defend themselves.

Using their skills to defend themselves… not sure I'd call that "boxing" if we're defining boxing as something particular… but more to the point, if someone is training in boxing, but not getting in the ring, are they still boxing if part of their idea is to use it maybe someday perhaps if something possibly maybe might happen kinda? Or are they not really boxing until put in that position?

That really goes for all martial arts in general. I simply don't buy the notion that someone would join a martial art school with no intention of ever fighting with those skills. There are cheaper and more efficient ways to get in shape or improve your personality than doing Karate or Bjj for example.

So what? Sure, there might be cheaper… but if it's the method that someone prefers, or chooses for whatever reason they have, why does it have to be something you need to "buy"? I might as well say I don't buy someone starting a discussion, then changing it halfway through as they don't like being corrected or disagreed with… I don't have to buy it for you to do it…

You're the one telling me that karate is some sort of grappling art, yet I have to see any grappling in it outside some demonstrations by a couple of individuals. If grappling in Karate is as prevalent as you say it is, where is it?

Quick question… what do you think grappling is?

Read posts #59 and #73.

Read them. They were questioning your inconsistent and inaccurate definitions… and had nothing to do with the discussion you were being asked about by K-man.

None of those reasons really go against the idea that someone really only joins a martial art because they're trying to improve their fighting ability. Now certainly other things matter as well, but clearly fighting would be the primary reason.

Wow, you really still think that? Despite 8 pages here, and many, many other threads and posts telling you and detailing exactly how wrong that is?

I have, and I've never found it. My experience with grappling karatekas is that their grappling skills are extremely low unless they've cross-trained. I know one instructor who mixes Judo with Isshin-Ryu, and he wrestled in HS, so his students are very good grapplers. However they are the exceptions.

Again, what are you calling "grappling"?

Which I always find K-Man's claims of pure Karate grappling so interesting.

Where has the idea of "pure Karate grappling" come from? Do you simply invent what you think people are saying, and complain that it's not true?

.......

I don't know what I expected, but that looks impractical as hell.

Well, you're half right… you didn't know what to expect. Or what you were seeing, I'd wager.

A believe the word martial art is a translation from the Chinese word wushu or Japanese bujustu which are both the same and written 武术
It does not mean martial ART but rather martial techniques which obviously are techniques relating or can be used in a martial kind of way. For example, the swimming in armour is needed for samurai to use when sneaking on an enemy or running away.

Er… no, it isn't. The term "martial art" is an old European term, not any translation of any Asian one. And, for the record, the Japanese use a different character for "jutsu", making "bujutsu" 武術… which literally would translate as "martial/military skills/techniques"… alternately, you could use "budo" 武道… "military/martial ways/paths"… or "bugei" 武芸 if you want to literally say "martial art".

Oh, and that's not necessarily the context of suijutsu either… although it can be… depending on the ryu-ha…

 

[Hanzou]

Where did he use the word "pure"?

Grappling within Karate that isn't derived from cross-training.

Uh I believe this throw is used in cma and Sanda as well except you don't stand that high when you are doing it and you are not grabbing the punch.

And you do understand that it comes from the kata, and isn't really demonstrating a "technique,": per se, as much as it is a principle?

Hence why I said it looks impractical.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay…

Really? Where did we establish anything of the kind? You made your uninformed views, based on highly limited and narrow personal interpretation of your own, ignoring the actual definitions and applications of a range of terms. In fact, I posited a different (and, if I may, more accurate and inclusive) definition, and asked how Iaido was not a martial art under that view… you didn't answer, and instead threw this up there?

Apologies Chris. Due to the length of your responses, I missed that definition. Care to repost it?

Dude. Iaido is a martial art. Deal with it.

How when it doesn't fit the definition of a martial art?

The primary drive behind Tae Bo is fitness… but it employs martial (combative) techniques… and, like any exercise, correct form is important.

Except the correct form isn't for martial purposes, it's for burning calories. You try to punch or kick someone with Tae Bo and you're going to hurt yourself.

Everything…? Methinks you might not have as deep an understanding as you believe…

What aspect of Karate training isn't designed to improve your ability to do Karate techniques?

Yeah… not so much, actually. The definition you gave of "fight" did mention "struggle", but not the way you're saying here… for one thing, it didn't say anything about "physical struggle"… nor did it say that such an idea was "included" in the definition… it was actually more limited than that (which is what I was highlighting), saying that "fight" was defined as "Take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons". In other words, the only form of struggle is a violent one which involves physical strikes (not grappling, holds, throws etc) or weapons… which doesn't match BJJ…

Fight:
: to use weapons or physical force to try to hurt someone, to defeat an enemy, etc. : to struggle in battle or physical combat

: to be involved in (a battle, struggle, etc.)

Fight - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

In Bjj we struggle in physical combat. We can use physical force to hurt someone. If we're in a self defense situation we can use our skills to defeat. An enemy.

How is Bjj not fitting that definition? Also physical blows are a pretty big part of Bjj. At least in the Gracie lineage of Bjj which I come from.

No, the argument could be made that you're not doing the sport of boxing unless you're actually boxing/competing (doing it as a sport), but that's quite different to what you're suggesting.

No, I said the martial art of boxing, which requires actual application of boxing technique. In boxing actual boxing is pretty important.

This is on you-tube, so you know it's real… oh, but ignore the title… this isn't from Judo…

How do you know? The description of the video pretty much says that the guy is using Judo in a karate tournament. Considering how he's the only one doing it, while the other karateka is getting tossed around kind of backs that up.

 

[RTKDCMB]

.......

I don't know what I expected, but that looks impractical as hell.

And how could you possibly tell that from a couple of hard to make out tiny still pictures?

 

[Hanzou]

And how could you possibly tell that from a couple of hard to make out tiny still pictures?

The positioning, the grips, and the fact that the leverage required is dependent on the guy leaving his arm extended after a punch.

In short, that throw would require superhuman timing.

Try it with your friends sometime, and see how often they can move to the side, grab an arm, and throw someone in that fashion.

 

[elder999]

The positioning, the grips, and the fact that the leverage required is dependent on the guy leaving his arm extended after a punch.

In short, that throw would require superhuman timing.

Try it with your friends sometime, and see how often they can move to the side, grab an arm, and throw someone in that fashion.

-sigh-

This post amply demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what's depicted, as well as what principle based teaching is......

For the record-because I trust that you can't tell from two photographs, and can't read the leverage required isn't "dependent on the guy leaving his arm extended after a punch" at all-and the unbalancing and uprooting comes from the legs and positioning of the tori in this instance....the leverage comes from the hips. There were only nine throws depicted in Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan. This one is Yari Dama, "spearing through." What's happened is he's taken control of the attacking arm by seizing it, stepped through deeply and smashed and grabbed the testicles (really, the whole package, but we all know where the pain is,) sliding forward and turning the poor opponent to the left like a steering wheel,with his right hand at six o'clock-the fellas-and his left hand at the opponents arm, and down he goes-if he didn't just collapse from having his baby-seed factory smashed.....I've actually done this-or similar-on more than one occasion, though never in the ring, of course....

 

[RTKDCMB]

-sigh-

This post amply demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what's depicted, as well as what principle based teaching is......

For the record-because I trust that you can't tell from two photographs, and can't read the leverage required isn't "dependent on the guy leaving his arm extended after a punch" at all-and the unbalancing and uprooting comes from the legs and positioning of the tori in this instance....the leverage comes from the hips. There were only nine throws depicted in Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan. This one is Yari Dama, "spearing through." What's happened is he's taken control of the attacking arm by seizing it, stepped through deeply and smashed and grabbed the testicles (really, the whole package, but we all know where the pain is, sliding forward and turning the poor opponent to the left like a steering wheel,with his right hand at six o'clock-the fellas-and his left hand at the opponents arm, and down he goes-if he didn't just collapse from having his baby-seed factory smashed.....I've actually done this-or similar-on more than one occasion, though never in the ring, of course....

I couldn't even tell where he put his second arm.

 

[Hanzou]

-sigh-

This post amply demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what's depicted, as well as what principle based teaching is......

For the record-because I trust that you can't tell from two photographs, and can't read the leverage required isn't "dependent on the guy leaving his arm extended after a punch" at all-and the unbalancing and uprooting comes from the legs and positioning of the tori in this instance....the leverage comes from the hips. There were only nine throws depicted in Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan. This one is Yari Dama, "spearing through." What's happened is he's taken control of the attacking arm by seizing it, stepped through deeply and smashed and grabbed the testicles (really, the whole package, but we all know where the pain is, sliding forward and turning the poor opponent to the left like a steering wheel,with his right hand at six o'clock-the fellas-and his left hand at the opponents arm, and down he goes-if he didn't just collapse from having his baby-seed factory smashed.....I've actually done this-or similar-on more than one occasion, though never in the ring, of course....

Again, that's impractical. He's seizing the arm with his left hand, and stepping through (I'm assuming he's stepping through with his rear leg) to grab the testicles with his right hand, and then throwing him by pulling/lifting the seized wrist and lifting from the groin. You see this with the direction the arrows are going, and yeah the guy's arm is extended the entire time. You're really going to sit here and argue that you can throw someone just by grabbing their groin and lifting them up with one hand? Please demonstrate this principle.

There's a reason you never did this in the ring; No one is going to be standing there like a dummy after you caught the wrist in mid air(good luck with that in the first place), stepped through, and proceeded to reach down and grab their nut sack... Good luck maintaining control of that wrist. Good luck not getting hit in the face with their free hand.

 

[elder999]

e.

There's a reason you never did this in the ring; No one is going to be standing there like a dummy after you caught the wrist in mid air(good luck with that in the first place), stepped through, and proceeded to reach down and grab their nut sack...

No-I've never done it in the ring because grabbing the nutsack is against the rules.

On the other hand, I've caught and controlled quite a few punches over the years. One or two (maybe three or four) were thrown well. Of course, it's not like I had to wrap my hand around their wrists-in one instance, they were wearing a down jacket.

Again, you demonstrate a pretty clear lack of understanding: of martial arts, of "fighting," and of how principles are transmitted. Are you sure hat you actually practice a martial art? I know fighting is important for ki-boar-do, maybe that's your martial art, since you can't seem to settle on an avatar that represents wherever it is that you train...

 

[Hanzou]

No-I've never done it in the ring because grabbing the nutsack is against the rules.

So what? You can't do a variation of the groin grab by gripping/hooking the thigh or leg instead? So in other words the entire throw is dependent on the pain generated from a one-handed nut grab?

Again, impractical.

On the other hand, I've caught and controlled quite a few punches over the years. One or two (maybe three or four) were thrown well. Of course, it's not like I had to wrap my hand around their wrists-in one instance, they were wearing a down jacket.

So after you caught these punches, did you then pivot to a point where you actually decrease your grips power as that picture demonstrates? As a Judo man, i'm surprised you're defending that technique. Isn't that first picture a perfect set up for several Judo throws by Funakoshi's opponent?

Again, you demonstrate a pretty clear lack of understanding: of martial arts, of "fighting," and of how principles are transmitted. Are you sure hat you actually practice a martial art? I know fighting is important for ki-boar-do, maybe that's your martial art, since you can't seem to settle on an avatar that represents wherever it is that you train...

Yeah, let's leave the personal attacks at home and discuss the actual technique chief.

 

[elder999]

Yeah, let's leave the personal attacks at home and discuss the actual technique chief.

"Chief?"

Speaking of personal attacks, is that some sort of racial slur?

 

[Hanzou]

"Chief?"

Is that some sort of racial slur?

Sigh... Looks like its time for a break.

 

[elder999]

Sigh... Looks like its time for a break.

Actually, maybe you should apologize for calling me "chief."

 

[tshadowchaser]

Martial Arts as we practice today can be looked at as the preperation for combat When put into practice it becomes war or conflict, before that it is practice, it be as a sport or sparring or a form

 

[elder999]

I? Would I learn from an instructor that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? I'm forced to answer "no" to all three of those questions.

I knew an instructor who could barely fight his way out of a paper bag-he trained excellent fighters, though....

 

[RTKDCMB]

You see this with the direction the arrows are going, and yeah the guy's arm is extended the entire time.

His arm can remain extended if the other guy is holding it there.

There's a reason you never did this in the ring;

Because it is against the rules of most competition formats. Even grabbing on the thigh could be seen as a groin shot.

No one is going to be standing there like a dummy after you caught the wrist in mid air(good luck with that in the first place), stepped through, and proceeded to reach down and grab their nut sack... Good luck maintaining control of that wrist. Good luck not getting hit in the face with their free hand.

There is no step through shown in the pictures, he is performing the trow from the position he was in when he grabbed the wrist.

You seem to think grabbing someones wrist is extremely difficult. This is because you do not practice a style that involves a lot of blocking so obviously it will be more difficult for you to do it. It is not that hard to do.

 

[Chris Parker]

Apologies Chris. Due to the length of your responses, I missed that definition. Care to repost it?

Sure -

That will depend on your definition of a martial art (we'll get to the troublesome "dictionary" definition in a bit…), but for me, a martial art is a codified and formalised set of skills, methods, and applications based on or around combative or combatively themed actions and specific contexts. And, in that sense, how is it not a martial art?

How when it doesn't fit the definition of a martial art?

What definition? The incomplete, inaccurate, and largely incorrect one you found, or an actual definition?

Oh, and before you get all huffy about arguing with a dictionary, read on… it's been said before, but you'll get to read it again…

Except the correct form isn't for martial purposes, it's for burning calories. You try to punch or kick someone with Tae Bo and you're going to hurt yourself.

Eh, you try to kick or hit someone with a lot of methods, and you're going to hurt yourself… and sure, Tae Bo doesn't claim to be a martial art… but that wasn't the point. The question was always what you were labelling as combatively derived ("fighting") components… so far, you haven't been clear on that. You're seeming to have a largely subjective definition… one where, if it doesn't match what you expect it to be, it isn't a martial art… I got news for you… there are lots of martial arts that don't match what you'd expect. To be blunt, I'd consider Iaido far more of a "martial art" than MMA, BJJ, or anything of the kind… but that's my perspective.

What aspect of Karate training isn't designed to improve your ability to do Karate techniques?

Meditation, conditioning, proper etiquette, care and maintenance of your uniform, including wearing it properly… of course, I might note that you have changed your parameters yet again…

Fight:
: to use weapons or physical force to try to hurt someone, to defeat an enemy, etc. : to struggle in battle or physical combat

: to be involved in (a battle, struggle, etc.)

Fight - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

From before… you might have missed this part as well…

Right. Here's the problem with dictionary definitions… they are designed to offer a basic, un-nuanced, and largely generalised overview, often devoid of specific context, to give an introduction to someone wanting a grasp of a term. They are never exhaustive, and, when it comes to things like this, generalised to the point of inaccuracy. To be frank, I don't agree with the definition given… it's a popular-media answer, not a genuine understanding.

In other words, don't look to that when dealing with people who actually know the topic.

…………….

Again, the problem with dictionary definitions… well, we just said that. Here's the test for you… can you think of applications of the term/word that's being "defined" which do not fit within the definition given? In this example, can you think of an application of the term "fight" that doesn't involve physical blows or the use of weapons? How about a verbal "fight"? "Fight" against a disease? "Fight" to recover from surgery? There's a sports team referred to as the "Fighting Irish"… does that mean they bring weapons onto the field each game? "Fight" for control, say, of a company? Or a car?

Kay?

In Bjj we struggle in physical combat. We can use physical force to hurt someone. If we're in a self defense situation we can use our skills to defeat. An enemy.

Sure… I'd say that's a fairly liberal usage of the term "enemy", but I come from a rather different background… where that term is very specific, and has some quite clear-cut implications that go well beyond what you're talking about…

How is Bjj not fitting that definition?

That wasn't the definition you gave earlier… that was the point. The definition you gave was incomplete and inaccurate… it wasn't that BJJ wasn't a martial art, or didn't involve fighting in a particular context, it was that your given definitions were lacking. Again, you missed the context of what was being said.

Also physical blows are a pretty big part of Bjj. At least in the Gracie lineage of Bjj which I come from.

Okay. They were an almost unheard of aspect in the Gracie lineage I trained in… and what I've seen have been very unimpressive… but, of course, there's no reason to bring up the fact that an art that specialises in one area might be lacking in another…

No, I said the martial art of boxing, which requires actual application of boxing technique. In boxing actual boxing is pretty important.

Considering it's largely martial artists who would ever talk about the "martial art of boxing", and rarely boxers themselves, you might find the terminology you're using largely irrelevant… but, more to the point, I know what you said, and gave you the "sport of boxing" as a correction. Not as a simple usage of an alternate term.

How do you know? The description of the video pretty much says that the guy is using Judo in a karate tournament. Considering how he's the only one doing it, while the other karateka is getting tossed around kind of backs that up.

Because I can see what's in the video, I can recognise when it's Judo or not, I can see the throws in karate, and so on. Oh, and the comments on the video agree with me, for the record… pointing out that the throws/grappling methods shown are part of karate…

 

[elder999]

His arm can remain extended if the other guy is holding it there.



Because it is against the rules of most competition formats. Even grabbing on the thigh could be seen as a groin shot.



There is no step through shown in the pictures, he is performing the trow from the position he was in when he grabbed the wrist.

You seem to think grabbing someones wrist is extremely difficult. This is because you do not practice a style that involves a lot of blocking so obviously it will be more difficult for you to do it. It is not that hard to do.

Actually, given Funakoshi's relationship with his Okinawan homeboys, and the Japanese, and what went into giving the Japanese 空手?,karate empty hand, as opposed to the Okinawan's 唐手, kara/tang te, China hand, what isn't shown in the photographs of the throws is of no small importance-he is stepping through with the strike to the groin, but he's also doing something else that isn't shown.

As for practicing by grabbing the thigh, we actually practice this and sukuinage by grabbing the gi bottoms-I've ripped the groin right out of a few older pairs, over the years....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually, given Funakoshi's relationship with his Okinawan homeboys, and the Japanese, and what went into giving the Japanese 空手?,karate empty hand, as opposed to the Okinawan's 唐手, kara/tang te, China hand, what isn't shown in the photographs of the throws is of no small importance-he is stepping through with the strike to the groin, but he's also doing something else that isn't shown.

As for practicing by grabbing the thigh, we actually practice this and sukuinage by grabbing the gi bottoms-I've ripped the groin right out of a few older pairs, over the years....

I didn't say he was not stepping through at all I just said he did not step through in the photos

 

[elder999]

I didn't say he was not stepping through at all I just said he did not step through in the photos

Hard to tell everything being done for any of those nine throws in that book-'cept maybe the last one.... Would you like to see them?