How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

[Hanzou]

I hear a lot of people on these forums talk about how MA isn't about actual fighting, and I find that pretty puzzling. Sure, the arts can make you a better person in a variety of ways, but doesn't the entire concept of martial arts revolve around fighting? Some of the most revered figures in martial arts are revered because of their ability to fight or kill.

Would I have taken the time to read A Book of Five Rings if Musashi wasn't so proficient at killing people? Would I listen to Rickson Gracie's philosophy if he wasn't such a master in beating people up? Would I learn from an instructor that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag? I'm forced to answer "no" to all three of those questions.

What do you think? How important is fighting (or the ability to fight) in the martial arts?

 

[Cirdan]

Again with the martial arts = fighting = a duel (and that therfore full contact sparring must be the ultimate)?

The first twenty times this was explained to you it did not take, why bother with the twenty-first? Or how is this, I train an antiquated useless art that is nothing but tradition and will get me killed in an actual self defense situation, I admit it. Enjoy, I will dispose of the horse`s carcass now if you can just stop with the kicking thank you very much.

 

[drop bear]

It is tricky though. If i wanted to win a fight in the most efficient method would shoot them. Yet i spend hours learning to punch people.

so there has to be more to ma than being the most effective kill monster.

 

[Zero]

Well what are you encompassing in the term "fight" and what do you see that as meaning? Is it simply squaring off against another opponent either in the ring or on the street (which would fit more with the regular meaning of "fight") or is this to also extend to a self-defence situation, ie someone tries to jump you and you have to act with maximum efficiency and speed in an altercation that may, hopefully (or not), be over in seconds or split seconds (rather than a more prolonged exchange)?

If an art had neither of those components, ie SD application or duelling, personally I would not be drawn to it and would question its worth or place as a "martial" art (but not its worth per se). That said some styles I do see as very much martial arts but they have very limited application in today's world in either tournament or street fighting or SD. I would perhaps put the likes of Iaido in this category as no one, outside of their club or home, gets to walk around much with a sword (although it would be more than unfortunate to be doing a little breaking and entry when the owner is in possession of their sword...) so the "chance" to be able to put that into real practice would seem slim. Don't get me wrong I have full respect and appreciation for iaido and from my karate practice (compared to iaido) basic sword work, but I would not put that high on the list if SD or "fighting" in the modern environment was my main focus...

 

[Hanzou]

It is tricky though. If i wanted to win a fight in the most efficient method would shoot them. Yet i spend hours learning to punch people.

so there has to be more to ma than being the most effective kill monster.

Not really. There are benefits to knowing how to fight and possibly kill without a weapon. For example, you can't always carry a gun, you could run out of ammunition, or you can't reach your firearm in time to stop an attack.

 

[Blindside]

To me martial arts is certainly about learning to fight, either in a duel or for a self-defense situation. Now I will say that I don't do martial arts because I have to learn how to fight, I do it because I enjoy the process of learning and challenging myself, but without the fight aspects I could just as easily pick another hobby.

 

[Steve]

People,train for a variety of reasons, and some martial arts are known to be of limited practical use for self defense. My opinion is that, if one is honest about what he is tracking, and students are honest with the,selves about what they are learning, no harm done.


For example, a sport bjj guy learns a lot of valuable skills, but as the emphasis is on ground fighting, that person should acknowledge the gaps for self defense.

I honestly believe the issue with some is that they believe they are learning skills which they are not. And worse, they teach these things to others.

 

[Shai Hulud]

It depends on your goals, or what you want to get out of your practice. Some people will practice Taijiquan or Aikido because they find the esoterics or the cultural facet fascinating. Some people will practice Judo, TKD or BJJ because they see it as a way to get fit and see it as a sport they can excel in, and others will practice Krav Maga or Systema for street self-defense.

And even then, there are a lot of variables involved. I'm pretty sure we all want to get different things out of our MA's. I practiced Keysi to be proficient in street-fighting, and now I'm gravitating toward Thai kickboxing, BJJ and boxing as a foundation for my desire to pursue the sport of Mixed Martial Arts.

It's really subjective. It depends on what the practitioner wants to get out of it.

 

[elder999]

Again, my own dojo kun:

Not to kill.
Not to harm the harmless, or hurt the innocent.
Not to disgrace my arts, my teacher, or myself.

Martial arts, in a modern context- the budo- are about not "fighting."

The martial sports, martial sciences, and self-defense? Maybe about "fighting."

Depends upon what you mean by "fighting," really....

 

[Dirty Dog]

Fighting is not at all important to Martial Arts. It is certainly important to some individuals, but not to the study of the arts themselves.

It also depends on how you define fighting. From your other posts here, it's clear that you consider sporting events fighting. While it is common enough to see the word "fight" used for competitive events, I do not think they are the same. If we are competing, what I am willing to do to win is limited. If we are fighting, it is not. If the only way I can win a fight is to kill you, then that is what I will (try to) do.

 

[ballen0351]

Fighting and self defense are not the same thing. I never fight anyone. I do use my skills in defense of myself and others but I don't fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Fighting is not at all important to Martial Arts. It is certainly important to some individuals, but not to the study of the arts themselves.

It also depends on how you define fighting. From your other posts here, it's clear that you consider sporting events fighting. While it is common enough to see the word "fight" used for competitive events, I do not think they are the same. If we are competing, what I am willing to do to win is limited. If we are fighting, it is not. If the only way I can win a fight is to kill you, then that is what I will (try to) do.

No, I consider any conflict between individuals or groups as fighting. Sporting events certainly qualify, but so does someone attacking someone else in a bar or a pub, or someone attacking someone else in "da streetz".

You say what you would do in a fight isn't limited. You sure about that? Wouldn't your response be potentially tempered by your local laws?

 

[Hanzou]

Fighting and self defense are not the same thing. I never fight anyone. I do use my skills in defense of myself and others but I don't fight.

Defense is part of fighting.

Well what are you encompassing in the term "fight" and what do you see that as meaning? Is it simply squaring off against another opponent either in the ring or on the street (which would fit more with the regular meaning of "fight") or is this to also extend to a self-defence situation, ie someone tries to jump you and you have to act with maximum efficiency and speed in an altercation that may, hopefully (or not), be over in seconds or split seconds (rather than a more prolonged exchange)?

If an art had neither of those components, ie SD application or duelling, personally I would not be drawn to it and would question its worth or place as a "martial" art (but not its worth per se). That said some styles I do see as very much martial arts but they have very limited application in today's world in either tournament or street fighting or SD. I would perhaps put the likes of Iaido in this category as no one, outside of their club or home, gets to walk around much with a sword (although it would be more than unfortunate to be doing a little breaking and entry when the owner is in possession of their sword...) so the "chance" to be able to put that into real practice would seem slim. Don't get me wrong I have full respect and appreciation for iaido and from my karate practice (compared to iaido) basic sword work, but I would not put that high on the list if SD or "fighting" in the modern environment was my main focus...

Well I would argue that one learns Iaido to know how to better use (or fight with) the sword.

 

[Danny T]

We are all different. Different wants, needs, desires, passions.

People come to the martial arts for many reasons. Learning to fight is only one reason. I have students who train only because they enjoy the training, the exercises (physical and mental) and fighting has nothing to do with it. I have some who come simply because it is a positive environment, a place they can get away from the negativity of their lives. A place where they are dealing with high energy people with positive attitudes because they aren’t getting it in other areas of their life and it has nothing to do with fighting. I have those who come for self confidence, self esteem, for anger release and management, for self control, focus, attribute development like balance and hand eye coordination. These are just some examples that are all needed in being a good fighter but not about fighting.

Of course there are those who come to the martial arts because of the fighting in form of fight back self-defense and/or competition.

We do use fighting actions, moves, drills, exercises to help everyone who trains in the martial arts however, in my experience of almost 45 years in the martial arts few are actually there for the fighting. The ones who are there for the fighting and who diligently train and practice as a fighter become good at fighting. The others who stay and who diligently train and practice as a martial artist become good martial artists and along the way can also become good at fighting ‘if’ fighting is emphasized with in the training.

 

[Zero]

Well I would argue that one learns Iaido to know how to better use (or fight with) the sword.

Agreed but how often does one get to fight (I mean really fight) or kill someone with a sword? For the most part these days I'd say not ever, never. Now I am talking from ignorance here, so may have it completely wrong, as am not an iaido practitioner but I think iaido students are studying iaido for reasons other than to learn practical self defence or to be a better fighter.

 

[Steve]

I agree with those who assert that self defense is not fighting. But, I also think that some people think they're learning to fight but are not. Some think they're learning self defense, but are instead learning to perform perfect kata. Some think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set.

 

[Zero]

I agree with those who assert that self defense is not fighting. But, I also think that some people think they're learning to fight but are not. Some think they're learning self defense, but are instead learning to perform perfect kata. Some think they're learning to fight, but are instead learning to compete within a very specific rule set.

You hit the nail square on the head. What amazes me is that so many are in this situation but do not realise it. It seems odd that fighting and SD can be such alien and unrecognisable concepts to so many people, although maybe that is a good thing?

 

[Hanzou]

I think people are misunderstanding the question of the thread. I'm not asking how important fighting is to individual practitioners, I'm asking how important fighting is to the arts themselves. I.e. if you remove the fighting component from the arts, are they still "martial arts" or something else entirely?

 

[ballen0351]

Some Kata is learning self-defense. I could teach someone a single kata and if they train that kata they are learning self defense. I get what your saying but Kata can teach you self-defense very effectively

 

[ballen0351]

I think people are misunderstanding the question of the thread. I'm not asking how important fighting is to individual practitioners, I'm asking how important fighting is to the arts themselves. I.e. if you remove the fighting component from the arts, are they still "martial arts" or something else entirely?

What are fighting components?