How I feel about people changing schools, instructors, lineages, etc.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by gpseymour, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This guy's view of changing affiliation is pretty close to my own, as is his view of training/teaching people outside his team. Especially the two points he makes starting about 6:01.


     
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  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    the audio in that sound like he has a washing machine on spin cycle going, i couldn't put up with it, what does he actually say, that your agreeing with?
     
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  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He makes several good points. Among them:
    • There's no shame (and really no problem) with someone deciding to go to another association/lineage/instructor.
    • If you have a problem with that, you should also refuse people who change from another lineage to you.
    • If your students want to learn from someone else, too, that's cool. If you aren't providing something they need (spiritually, physically, etc.), then they should go find it. If they find something that works better, they are welcome to bring it back.
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    yea, that makes a deal of sense, but i suspect its not a very common attitude in tma, particularly introducing techniques that are not in the kata
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It depends upon the school/instructor, for the most part. I know folks in NGA who won't do anything they weren't taught by their instructor. I'm pretty far in the opposite direction - I'll use/teach anything useful that doesn't conflict with the basic principles. Most folks are somewhere between those two points, and I suspect that's true in many other arts.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think it only makes your system stronger. But we have three different coaches within our one club.
     
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  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    When people come to us from within our style, our sensei talks to their old sensei. He expects the same in return, but only inside our own style. Other styles, eh.

    Many good reason's to move training. A few bad ones, like sensei shopping.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I like having multiple instructors. I don't have that in my program (yet - maybe someday if I'm lucky), but I remember having 3 different instructors during a period of my training, and I liked the different viewpoints.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. And most of us don't like the bad ones - we should like them as little in both directions (which is one of the points the guy in the video is railing about).
     
  10. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    Perhaps, but the world has changed a lot in the past couple decades and I suspect anyone that retains those thoughts will become irrelevant fairly soon.

    It's not just martial arts, it's everything. We used to go into a place, meet with someone and they had all the cards. If you wanted to buy a tv you'd ask the sales rep the questions and get their opinions. They had the knowledge, you didn't. Now you pull out your phone and punch in the model number and you get 100's of reviews, comparisons and even prices all while standing in the aisle if you want.

    In the martial arts you'd get out the yellow pages, find a ad that looked appealing and call. Now before you even make contact you've seen their webpage, google reviews, Facebook reviews, asked about them in community Facebook groups and more.

    Not to mention you can pretty much guarantee that every technique you will learn in any martial arts school can be found free, online, done by someone of a high level. In instructional format and competition footage.

    Anyone still playing the game of secrets in todays world is going to go extinct soon.
     
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  11. shihansmurf

    shihansmurf Black Belt

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    QFT!

    My experience has been that most of the lug nuts that try to spout the "Kung Fu Secrets" crap usually don't know that much or don't perform very well to begin with and seek to cultivate an aura of mystique about themselves to hide their lack of ability. I'm sure that there are exceptions but in my 33 years of doing martial arts I have'nt encountered any.

    I'm venting a bit as I just had an email exchange with one of these "secret knowledge masters" guys that is looking to share floor space with me. On to the OP.

    I don't see anything wrong with changing lineages. It all depends on why you are training and what you are wanting to get out of the martial arts. If you're looking to start in a new style, had a personal falling out with an instructor, moved, or just wanted to see a different approach: go for it. If you're rank shopping, however....

    As far as my student's training with someone else, I couldn't care less. When they're on our mat they do thing our way. Outside of class people are going to do what they want to do. I'm always a bit amused when I encounter martial art instructors that think they have the right to dictate their student behavior and life choices. It speaks to the humility that martial art training is supposed to build, I think.


    Just a thought,
    Mark
     
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  12. Phobius

    Phobius Black Belt

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    We have it practically as a requirement to train something else on higher grades. Hopefully outside our school but in worst case with another art at the school.

    And to remember, don't be a beginner in multiple arts. Have a purpose and goal with everything.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This is something in my mind, too. I haven't yet voiced it as an actual requirement, but I'd be hard pressed to talk myself into promoting someone to BB if they had no experience in other arts.
     
  14. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    It's ridiculous for an instructor to not want their students to seek out other instructors if the student feels the need to. I have a diverse background and a lot of my training overlapped with each other. I've only had two instructors that either directly or indirectly disapproved of training in other styles/instructors. However; most of them were vert supportive of my decision and encouraged me to do so.
     
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  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree 100% with the views expressed in the video. As an instructor, my first priority is always that my students should learn and progress as much as possible and enjoy the process as much as possible. If the best way for a given student to learn and enjoy themselves is to train with someone else, then that's what I want them to do. If I'm lucky, they'll come back and share some of what they've learned elsewhere.

    IMHO, the old-school complaints about "disloyalty" generally come down to emotional insecurity or an instructor's desire for money, status, or power.
     
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  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    For us it depends on how high up the student is. Instructors would have a difficult time training at another school. I would probably be an exception being that I only taught the sparring classes. I'm not sure how my Sifu would react now, but 4 yrs ago he didn't like it when a upper level student tried to learn at another school.
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    its endemic at at lot of tma schools, they have a cultish sence of ownership of the,students and a religious zeal that theirs is the one true way
     
  18. shihansmurf

    shihansmurf Black Belt

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    Well said. I would also think that if more teachers treated their students respectfully they would inspire the very loyalty that they are trying to force.

    I also think that being open ans honest with your students about what you teach and the limits thereof is important. Sometimes a student will switch because the teacher just isn't teaching what the students looking for. For example, if someone came to me looking for a highly traditional environment or a grappling based approach then I'm not a good fit and I don't see why I would find it objectionable for them to shop elsewhere even if they had been training with me for a bit. People's desires change and all.

    Mark
     
  19. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Can you elaborate on that?
     
  20. celtic_crippler

    celtic_crippler Senior Master

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    The view of being "loyal" to one school or system is out dated. Modern martial artists routinely cross train in other systems and if you want to attract them to your school you're better off offering different options. I teach Kenpo at the Orlando Combatives Club in Florida and we also have instructors that teach Eskrima, Wing Chun, and a Defensive Tactical Solutions instructor. Students can choose to train one system, two systems, or all of them. I think this type of format is the future of martial arts as it provides more offerings to the public from one facility.123
     

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