How effective is sport BJJ (or GJJ) on the Street?

[K-man]

Wow! I think, for the first time in my life, I am speechless.

 

[Steve]

While there is definitely a good point even from Sport BJJ that translates to SD, there still a decent bit that needs to adapted or not focused on for SD.

Off the top of my head, A gogoplata is very much the groundfighting equivalent of a Tornado kick. It can definitely be used in the perfect situation especially in competitions, but isnt the most practical submission by any stretch of the imagination. I personally havent seen it used even in the competitions Ive been to.

I can only think of one time it was even used in UFC.

Omoplatas also arent terribly common, but you'll see them now and again.

The "keep only what works, discard what doesnt" isnt as much of a BJJ principle as it is MMA.

Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not saying effective, if you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?



Well first off Id question the anecdotes of anyone that close to the founding of a style tied to that persons founding name. If there were a bunch of other corraborating thats different, but name one person whos founded an MA that they want to be commercially and widely spread that doesnt fluff up their experiences.

Second, even if Bas Rutten is telling the truth and that did happen, its Bas Rutten. Your average MMA/TMA guy cant just sit there and get their head kicked in while trying to submit a guy..

There are a lot of techniques, like the omoplata, which aren't really well suited to MMA because the combatants are shirtless and sweaty. But with the added friction and control of a gi or a jacket, it's quite viable. It's also often used as a sweep or submission, so you might not finish with it, but it can certainly improve your situation.

 

[Tez3]

Wow! I think, for the first time in my life, I am speechless.

Well it certainly was 'special'

 

[drop bear]

Don't try to use the eyewash while standing on a ladder until you reach black belt. That's an advanced technique.

Apparently that eyewash superglue is a real issue.

 

[drop bear]

The vast majority of BJJ schools that I've seen in my area, while they are all good quality, all are focused on the sport/competing aspect. Matt Bryers, one of the members here, has posted some clips of his Kobukai JJ, that he teaches, which is geared more for stand up/street application, although there is ground elements to it, it is different from the usual BJJ. IMO, mixing the 2, would be a big plus.

Everyone is different, but for me, in a street situation, I'd say avoiding the ground is the best option. Yeah, I know BJJ's strong point is the ground, but to intentionally go there...sorry, but that's just crazy IMO. If you end up there by default...sure, ok, do what you have to do to get back up. But that's not the time to prolong the ground game, for the reasons that have been talked about endlessly. LOL.

I do feel that having an understanding of the ground, is key, to SD. Are there BJJ gyms out there that also teach more of a street format? Don't know. If not, I'm sure it'd be fairly simple to possibly modify things as needed, for a street situation.

What if the other guy is just plain out striking you?

I cant see myself eating punches all day on the idea that i might get tied up on the ground if some other person jumps in.

 

[Hanzou]

There are a lot of techniques, like the omoplata, which aren't really well suited to MMA because the combatants are shirtless and sweaty. But with the added friction and control of a gi or a jacket, it's quite viable. It's also often used as a sweep or submission, so you might not finish with it, but it can certainly improve your situation.

Yeah, I was surprised when Drose mentioned Omoplata as something that wasn't practical, it's one of my personal faves because it has so many great uses.

I suppose he thought that Omoplata and Gogoplata were similar because of their names? :shrug:

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, BTW, (is it Horian Gracie), he is talking about their BJJ for self defence. I presume you are aware of the two types of GJJ. That's actually why I put GJJ in the title. They started teaching a form for self defence because the sport based form was not very practical for the street. Sort of going back to the origins of BJJ.

No, he started promoting self defense Bjj because Sport Bjj schools were beating Gracie Bjj schools in competition, and started to eat into his business. Not saying that his SD claims aren't valid, because they certainly are, and I can see the dangers of losing the SD aspect of Bjj completely in favor of the sporting aspect, but Rorian's reasons behind pushing SD Bjj don't completely revolve around the issue you describe above.

 

[Shai Hulud]

BJJ is excellent as a grappling art. As a sport we all know of its strengths by now I'm sure, but if I recall correctly Royce Gracie had a couple tapes featuring street BJJ - takedowns, defenses against bear hugs and grabs and strikes and the like.

There are facets of BJJ that make it a terrific art for the street, but do mind its limitations and the general rules of thumb for street-fighting. Grappling may not always pertain to "going to the ground", or staying down there for too long.

Wouldn't want to get your teeth and sides kicked in if the target has accomplices nearby.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But the premise of the thread is the effectiveness of BJJ in a street self defense situation

Actually, "self-defense" doesn't appear in the original post. The question was how applicable BJJ is "for the street", which would include consensual testosterone-and-ego--driven street fighting. That is part of the context that BJJ was originally developed for. I strongly recommend against anyone participating in such an activity, but many members of the Gracie family have done so since the inception of the art.

Since I have asked a few times now for an example of what that would look like and no one has answered I am left with only my own idea of what a violent attack could consist of and how BJJ would fit into that framework.

There are a lot of different contexts for a violent attack. Some examples:

• Belligerent drunk corners you as you try to leave the bar
• Evicting said belligerent drunk when you are the bouncer
• Fending off a date rapist
• Controlling a mentally ill family member who is attacking another family member
• Taking down and cuffing a violent suspect when you are a LEO
• Being assaulted by a gang trying to beat you down for being in their neighborhood
• Catching an unarmed burglar in your house
• Catching an armed burglar in your house who turns and attacks you

BJJ (properly trained) can have something to offer in each of these scenarios. In some cases it might be the classic "take-them-down and subdue them on the ground" approach. In other cases it might be "survive if you get knocked down and get back up so you can run." In other cases it might be "use your stand-up clinch skills to control the situation." I'm not saying it will always be the best tool or the only one you will need, but it is a useful one.

You can check out this thread for a real-life application of BJJ that many people wouldn't think of.

Like Renzo Gracie or Bas Rutten, both who supposedly used their Bjj skills in multiple attacker situations.

In fairness, Renzo and Bas are physically and mentally tough enough that they would be dangerous even with no martial arts skills at all.

Even though we dont see Gogoplatas and omoplatas in the same number as we see Armbars and Triangles, theyre still actively taught. If they were nearly as practical (notice how im not saying effective, if you can get them theyll work) or common we'd see them a lot more. But theyre still taught, if BJJ was all about "discarding what doesnt work" why teach anything other than the most practical moves?

Well...you have to ask "practical for what?" The omoplata is highly practical for both sport competition and real life. I get it on people all the time. You don't see it in MMA very often because of the slipperiness factor with sweaty guys wearing shorts.

The gogoplata (like other "fringe" techniques) has some practicality as a surprise technique to throw into the mix in competition against technical opponents who are highly aware of all the standard high-percentage moves.

I will say that at any moment there are plenty of "low-percentage" moves being practiced and taught in BJJ (usually for competition). This is because the BJJ world can be seen as a huge laboratory with researchers running experiments all the time. Some folks are trying to research refinements to the old standard techniques. Others are trying to find new techniques that can be added to the list of high-percentage moves. If a player can figure out how to reliably succeed with a lower-percentage move like the gogoplata, then it will end up being more widely practiced and taught. If not, it will remain on the fringe.

As I said, I think the thing that gets missed from Bjj are the highly practical takedowns and throws within the system. You don't see it in the sport, but its a big part of standard Bjj practice.

The reason being, these takedowns are low-percentage against a skilled grappler. They're worth studying because they're easy to learn and effective against a striker who doesn't have a grappling background.

Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time.

Not so much. Going balls to the wall constantly in sparring is mostly what you see from white belts. It's not the optimum way to learn and get the best results from sparring.

 

[drop bear]

I think many people missed my point. I hear everyone talking about "street effectiveness" yet no one has defined what that is. My own personal risk assessment will be very different than someone else. My own personal chance of getting into an altercation with a drunk at a bar is close to zero. Because I don't drink and I don't go to bars. My own personal experience with home invasions is much higher I have had 3 incidents and the one I cited I use as an example because it happened less than 20 minutes from my home. My wife is from another country so traveling internationally with my family is more of a risk factor for a terrorist attack then most people. The more international travel equals higher risk.
So again people need to stop saying "oh that will never happen" which is denial, and start asking themselves ....ok what might happen? The OP question was about the effectiveness of BJJ but until you define the type of risk you are talking about you are talking out your butt...in all likelihood BJJ is more effective in preventing my heart attack than keeping my loved ones safe.

I have mentioned my situational defence idea.

looking at it from the idea that we need to develop an individual skill set to suit our circumstances then an art like bjj could be considered that it does everything it is supposed to do and does not do anything it isn't supposed to do.

 

[drop bear]

Well...you have to ask "practical for what?" The omoplata is highly practical for both sport competition and real life. I get it on people all the time. You don't see it in MMA very often because of the slipperiness factor with sweaty guys wearing shorts.

In mma you have to know it so you can defend it. And because they both have trained that technique it gets cancelled out because neither person can apply it.

But if one person did not train the omapalata that is when it will work.

 

[drop bear]

Im also curious, how did you learn omo/gogplata? From guard the leg comes of the head the same way as taught by the two schools Ive worked with guys from.

 

[drop bear]

Bjj needs more face punching. Even on the ground, striking is too good a fight finisher not to be taking full advantage of. Or defending against.

 

[FriedRice]

"Sparring in BJJ is 80-100% power, all the time."

Not so much. Going balls to the wall constantly in sparring is mostly what you see from white belts. It's not the optimum way to learn and get the best results from sparring.

I probably should have been more clear. When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. No one wants to tap and lose. It's just training, but keeping score certainly does exist, just not admitted.

When 2 White Belts spar at such intensity, there's a lot of out of control movements due to their limited experience and knowledge of techniques with limbs flailing, thrashing, etc. But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them.

Now a step above this in intensity, would be when 2 friendly rivals of the school spars. It will certainly be at 100%. And during the initial engagement, there's some serious attacking at 100% power. Same goes with our Competition Team training.

Now of course when a White Belt spars a Purple Belt, it would be a relaxing flow drill for the PB. And even the WB, he knows he has no chance and will tone it down to work on his techniques, but it's usually just survival for the WB.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When 2 BJJ of the same level spar, it certainly is at 80-100% power & intensity. ... But when 2 Black Belts spar, there's more control, but it's still at full power, except it's all compacted. The power is being exerted in the grips. The muscles are constantly straining, but the limbs are kept tight & compact; even though you don't see much movements. Even while waiting for the moment to explode, the muscle exertion is still constantly applied at this 100% power of whatever they have left in them.

Not in my experience. Certainly you do want to roll like that occasionally, but I don't recommend it all the time for any level of practitioner.

Of course, different gyms have different mentalities, so approaches can vary.

How long have you been training BJJ and where do you train?

 

[FriedRice]

Not in my experience. Certainly you do want to roll like that occasionally, but I don't recommend it all the time for any level of practitioner.

Of course, different gyms have different mentalities, so approaches can vary.

How long have you been training BJJ and where do you train?

I started BJJ in 2000. Hopped around a lot with different gyms such as Lloyd Irvin's, Pedro Sauer's, Renzo's, etc. But I'm mostly a striker. Right now, I mostly hop around different gyms to spar with their fight teams when they need bodies to train for a tournament...mostly because I don't want to pay $140+ a month for structured classes.

 

[Hanzou]

Bjj needs more face punching. Even on the ground, striking is too good a fight finisher not to be taking full advantage of. Or defending against.

I agree. Face punching also forces your opponent to open themselves up to chokes and submissions.

 

[MJS]

What if the other guy is just plain out striking you?

I cant see myself eating punches all day on the idea that i might get tied up on the ground if some other person jumps in.

We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question: Do what you have to do, to survive. If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it. If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it. If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.

As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc. Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it. IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy. Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy. But that's just me. Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.

 

[Hanzou]

We could 'what if' this discussion all day, but to answer your question: Do what you have to do, to survive. If you have to clinch, take the guy down and bust his arm, do it. If you clinch, take him down, and choke him out, do it. If you can choke the guy out while standing, do it.

As I've said countless times, and I'll probably say many, many more times...I'm NOT anti BJJ, Judo, Sambo, etc. Multi man attacks aside, if going to the ground is the only/best option, then do it. IMO though, intentionally going there, as in, going there for the sake of it, is crazy. Prolonging your stay on the ground, is crazy. But that's just me. Assess the situation and base your response accordingly.

Frankly, nothing beats a clinch, rear takedown, mount, and ground and pound/armbar/choke finish.

You can pull all of that off in a matter of seconds, if the situation warrants it.

 

[MJS]

Frankly, nothing beats a clinch, rear takedown, mount, and ground and pound/armbar/choke finish.

You can pull all of that off in a matter of seconds, if the situation warrants it.

Absolutely.