How does Sine Wave look when done correctly, and how does it add power?

[marvin8]

To me the kinetic linking explains both cases, doesn't it? So there is no conflict, they are complementary methods?

Not per the kinetic linking video, my post #5 and study on boxing's straight punch:

At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage.

Trunk Rotation in Straight Punches (kinetic linking).

It seems Choi is stepping forward to the quick, and utilises gravity to reflect the kinetic wave and add power to the strike, this is why he syncs the strikes with the up -> down.

The other examples, does not use gravity, it reflects the kinetic wave from the ground, and uses an upwards push to add power, thus the strik is synced with down -> up.

In the OP, Choi throws the jab from neutral position (down), moves up, drops back to neutral position (down) then strikes to generate power. It's gravity: down -> up -> down vs kinetic linking: up -> down -> up.

Choi's gravity sine wave in the jab-reverse punch has less:

• Trunk rotation
• Whole body torque
• Power come from back -> forth
• Angle
• Momentum towards the target
• Weight transfer
• Elastic energy
• Punch accuracy
• Non-telegraphing
• Follow through

https://imgur.com/HJvAtYB

In Tyson vs Golota, Tyson...

1. from neutral position (up) simultaneously fakes a jab to the right of Golota's head, slips (defense) to his right (down) and steps forward and to the left with his lead foot. Now, Tyson's weight is on the back foot with his head on the left side of Golota's head.
2. pushes off his back foot crosses the centerline as he shifts his weight to the front foot (up). Tyson's head is now on the right side of Golota's head. Tyson follows through with the rear straight, at a trajectory where Golota cannot brace his head, knocking Golota down.

Tyson's jab-reverse punch is different and has the missing elements from Choi's sine wave.

https://imgur.com/bKyfwlR

Even in kyokushing we do both methods depending on the attack and movement combination. I think it comes natural, to work with gravity whe nyou strke down, and push off the ground when striking upwards. For pure horizontal strikes I think both methods partially would work, but not sure which one is more powerful. I thikn it depends on where your feet are at the impact?

Yes. Boxing can also use gravity with the jab, Dempsey falling step. Sine wave works better if target is down (e.g., breaking boards below you). Boxing and MMA also punch when moving back but use the more powerful kinetic linking, rather than gravity.

https://imgur.com/P27aR8w

 

[JowGaWolf]

"Sine Wave" is nothing more than a metaphorical description used to describe the motion and contrast easily with "Saw Tooth" and "Flat Wave" It is natural but like so many "Natural" motions they are often exaggerated in Patterns. Let's face it - if we want to start critiquing unnatural stuff in patterns we can start with bringing the opposite hand to the hip whe punching.

Yeah but not all exaggeration is hood or helpful. For example, Sinking /ones weight is not exaggerated in many kung fu forms. We don't exaggerate sinking the body by doing squats. Which I actually saw a kung fu teacher do this in a fight. Which resulted in I'm falling to the ground and got punched in his mouth.

In my opinion, if the exaggeration doesn't benefit the learning process or the spplication of a technique then it shouldn't be done. The concept of moving upward or downward may not be best served by an exaggeration.
I don't know the answer in the terms of Sine Waves. Has that always been a part of the system or is UT something new in the past 20 years.

Is it application based or performance based?

 

[Fungus]

Not per the kinetic linking video, my post #5 and study on boxing's straight punch:

Ok, if you look at that specific video you are right, but perhaps we mean different things with the words.

What I meant is that I can see a kinetic linking in both cases, except the path of the forces are different. The kinetic linking video above is IMO just a specific EXAMPLE of kinetic linking.

For example a whip, you can start it by snapping UP, or snapping down. It's like a sine, vs -sine. The waves are 180 degrees out of phase, but the linking is still there. I think the "gravity" is just what makes the up-wave reflect, while the "floor" is what makes the down-turn reflect. But I see a kinetic linking in both cases.

But otherwise I agree what you said.

For both these techniques, if you try them, I think you can feel the wave or a impulse flow in your body if you are relaxed. So the idea is to work with this natural wave? Wether the wave is up-down-up or down-up-down, is different but still kinetic linking in my mind?

 

[marvin8]

Ok, if you look at that specific video you are right, but perhaps we mean different things with the words.

What I meant is that I can see a kinetic linking in both cases, except the path of the forces are different. The kinetic linking video above is IMO just a specific EXAMPLE of kinetic linking.

For example a whip, you can start it by snapping UP, or snapping down. It's like a sine, vs -sine. The waves are 180 degrees out of phase, but the linking is still there. I think the "gravity" is just what makes the up-wave reflect, while the "floor" is what makes the down-turn reflect. But I see a kinetic linking in both cases.

But otherwise I agree what you said.

You may be right, which is why I used the word "less." However, the sine wave only uses the up -> down wave while combat sports uses both down -> up and pull (back) -> push (forth) wave.

There are sports studies and analysis getting the most power when throwing a baseball and football, similar (although exaggerated) elements to the jab-straight punch. All use a sequential kinetic chain with down -> up and pull (back) -> push (forth) wave, not the up -> down sine wave.

For both these techniques, if you try them, I think you can feel the wave or a impulse flow in your body if you are relaxed. So the idea is to work with this natural wave? Wether the wave is up-down-up or down-up-down, is different but still kinetic linking in my mind?

However, one of the OP questions is which adds more power to the jab-reverse punch? It's not what you feel but what the opponent feels. I believe the sine wave is a break in the sequential kinetic chain of the jab-reverse punch. A person's viewpoint...

 

[Earl Weiss]

In my opinion, if the exaggeration doesn't benefit the learning process or the spplication of a technique then it shouldn't be done. The concept of moving upward or downward may not be best served by an exaggeration.
I don't know the answer in the terms of Sine Waves. Has that always been a part of the system or is UT something new in the past 20 years.

Is it application based or performance based?

1. SW Term first appeared in print in 1982 Edition. However the knee flexion was there previously and often called "Spring Style"
2. If all you want to do is fight there is not much point in wasting time with most TMA's which have you doing things that have more to do with "Art" than "Martial" You either appreciate the "Art" of you don't.

 

[HighKick]

There is a video out there where he says "Don't Twist your Body" Suffice it to say he still taught that the large muscles of the hips and abdomen are still "Twisted" to facilitate power. I think in this particular video the person had excessive rotation of the shoulders and this is what he was targeting by saying "Don't twist your body" (Note, he did not say don't move your hips in that video.)

Great point. I should have said don't twist/move the shoulders.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However the knee flexion was there previously and often called "Spring Style"

Thanks. This info led me to a good article that fills in the blanks for me. My curiosity is satisfied. It's the same thing I was originally thinking and the article explained the confusion behind sine wave. I'm not in the TKD world but I hope the term sine-wave gets a better name lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

TMA's which have you doing things that have more to do with "Art" than "Martial" You either appreciate the "Art" of you don't.

Lol I tolerate it so long as the majority of what I'm doing is not art. The art part is more of a spectator enjoyment for me. Everyone likes a good show.

 

[marvin8]

There are sports studies and analysis getting the most power when throwing a baseball and football, similar (although exaggerated) elements to the jab-straight punch. All use a sequential kinetic chain with down -> up and pull (back) -> push (forth) wave, not the up -> down sine wave...

I believe the sine wave is a break in the sequential kinetic chain of the jab-reverse punch.

Excerpt from "Examples of "Sine Wave" and "Hip Rotation" in Other Sports:"

Look at this video of a baseball pitcher. The principles employed are practically the same that ITF Taekwon-Do requires of its practitioners – although more subdued...

The other thing to notice is how he uses kinetic chaining, also known as sequential motion – usually and simplistically explained as “hip rotation.” The pitcher torques his body, starting from the legs, then the hips, through the spine and shoulders, and last whipping through the arm. The momentum of each segment of the body contributes to the momentum of the next part of the body.

Dany Schaer said...

I am following your blog tryaing to understand all the ways we use sine wave motion in Taekwondo. As you say, "Sine Wave's Function to Direct Body Mass in the Direction of the Technique…”

It is clearly visible that, in the punch moment, the body mass is going backwards. I tryied to find out why this is good, but couldn´t.

Choi’s sine wave movement:

1. Down – Neutral stance with lead arm extended (jab)
2. Up – move up and straighten front leg
3. Down – move down by flexing knees then throw reverse punch

Down -> up -> down movement breaks the sequential kinetic chain.

Boxing (e.g., Mike Tyson), MMA and baseball wave movement:

1. Up – Neutral stance
2. Down/Pull – Lead arm extended with weight on back foot
3. Up/Push – move up/forward by driving rear foot into the ground, shifting weight to the front foot, straightening lead leg then throw rear hand

Up -> down -> up and pull -> push movement continues the sequential kinetic chain.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Tyson's jab-reverse punch is different and has the missing elements from Choi's sine wave.

Since the Video has him moving forward to reach the opponent this naturally eliminates any possibility of letting the rear heel back down.

 

[Fungus]

Excerpt from "Examples of "Sine Wave" and "Hip Rotation" in Other Sports:"


Dany Schaer said...


Choi’s sine wave movement:

1. Down – Neutral stance with lead arm extended (jab)
2. Up – move up and straighten front leg
3. Down – move down by flexing knees then throw reverse punch

Hmmm... I would say he throws the punch when the knees straigten. Yes he STARTS punching when flexing, but the punch extension is synchronised with leg extension? Isn't he doing up-down-up after all?

I looked at that video at 27s again and he flexes his knees in order to load the drive from the rear foot, but his fist syncs well with the extensions. Looks like a wave starting from his read leg propagating up via the hips (but discrete) as his arms strikes.

I don't the point here is body mass, it is to increase the effective mass behind the punch but not by throwing your body into the punch, but to at the moment of impact having your support rear leg, and arm in line and tensed. So strongly rooted into the ground. Here your effective mass does not rely on body weight been thrown forward but a solid backup to the ground.

It's how I interpret that revesere punch.

Down -> up -> down movement breaks the sequential kinetic chain.

Boxing (e.g., Mike Tyson), MMA and baseball wave movement:

1. Up – Neutral stance
2. Down/Pull – Lead arm extended with weight on back foot
3. Up/Push – move up/forward by driving rear foot into the ground, shifting weight to the front foot, straightening lead leg then throw rear hand

Up -> down -> up and pull -> push movement continues the sequential kinetic chain.

This version of course throws and PUSHES with muscle power more body weight forward,so the effective mass relies on muscle force, and not just locking the joints into ground.

Maybe your muscle strenght matters. After all, none of those look anywhere Mike Tyson in body composition

 

[marvin8]

Since the Video has him moving forward to reach the opponent this naturally eliminates any possibility of letting the rear heel back down.

Not understanding. At the end of the Choi sine wave GIF, they step forward, move up/straighten lead leg and "let the rear heel back down" then punch. Tyson putting his rear heel back down then punch would break the "kinetic chaining, sequential motion." Sean O'Malley (MMA) moves backwards...

In Sterling vs O'Malley, O'Malley's wave moving backwards:

1. Up – Neutral stance
2. Down/Pull – Lead arm extended (controlling space) with weight on back foot
3. Up/Push – move up by driving rear foot into the ground, shifting weight to the front foot, straightening lead leg then throw rear hand

Up -> down -> up and pull -> push movement continues the sequential kinetic chain.

https://imgur.com/P27aR8w

 

[Fungus]

I think a big difference is that some techniques are better for high peak force, but short impact range - so not for follow trough, this limits the total energy transfer. For throwing a baseball the peak force is not relevant, you need a big impulse (integral of force over time).. here letting go of the rear foot solid support and transfer it to lead foot gives you a longer time to accelerate as you continue, so even if peak force is lower, the total momentum transfer can be higher, it's almost like a "push" punch.

I think the impact range when having your rear foot rooted, and good structures is short, probably not more than an inch or so? This limits the energy transfer. But in a case where you just want to break sometime brittle with high force, this should do well, but it would be for precision strikes at a given distance, and not so much for baseball throws.

 

[marvin8]

Hmmm... I would say he throws the punch when the knees straigten. Yes he STARTS punching when flexing, but the punch extension is synchronised with leg extension? Isn't he doing up-down-up after all?

I looked at that video at 27s again and he flexes his knees in order to load the drive from the rear foot, but his fist syncs well with the extensions. Looks like a wave starting from his read leg propagating up via the hips (but discrete) as his arms strikes.

1. From parallel stance, half step right jab into walking stance with weight 50/50 (down).
2. Raise left rear heel while straightening lead leg with jab extended (up).
3. Lower left rear heel, bend lead leg while throwing left reverse punch (down).

Sine wave is down -> up -> down.

I don't the point here is body mass, it is to increase the effective mass behind the punch but not by throwing your body into the punch, but to at the moment of impact having your support rear leg, and arm in line and tensed. So strongly rooted into the ground. Here your effective mass does not rely on body weight been thrown forward but a solid backup to the ground.

It's how I interpret that revesere punch.

It's not how Mike Tyson, O'Malley or a baseball pitcher throws the rear hand with kinetic chaining, sequential motion.

This version of course throws and PUSHES with muscle power more body weight forward,so the effective mass relies on muscle force, and not just locking the joints into ground.

Maybe your muscle strenght matters. After all, none of those look anywhere Mike Tyson in body composition

It relies less on muscle and more on technique and skill. Tyson uses waves to lure, enter, control, position, harmonize with and knock down Golota.

 

[marvin8]

Hmmm... I would say he throws the punch when the knees straigten. Yes he STARTS punching when flexing, but the punch extension is synchronised with leg extension? Isn't he doing up-down-up after all?

I looked at that video at 27s again and he flexes his knees in order to load the drive from the rear foot, but his fist syncs well with the extensions. Looks like a wave starting from his read leg propagating up via the hips (but discrete) as his arms strikes.

1. From parallel stance, half step right jab into walking stance with weight 50/50 (down).
2. Raise left rear heel while straightening lead leg with jab extended (up).
3. Lower left rear heel, bend lead leg while throwing left reverse punch (down).

Sine wave is down -> up -> down.

https://imgur.com/f816gKd

In Joe Schilling vs Guy in bar, Joe...

1. in parallel stance with weight on left leg, as opponent steps forward, lowers right heel to ground (up).
2. raises right heel, steps back to the right, pivots on front foot and throws right cross moving into walking stance (down).

Joe's wave is up -> down.
Eliminates extra up movement. Steps back creating space.

https://imgur.com/IBJzRCb

 

[isshinryuronin]

It is natural but like so many "Natural" motions they are often exaggerated in Patterns. Let's face it - if we want to start critiquing unnatural stuff in patterns we can start with bringing the opposite hand to the hip whe punching.

This is what happens when too much focus is on form: If something looks good, then more of it must be better! You can see it as "runaway evolution" where there is no check on getting too extreme.

In MA, the check is function. Unfortunately, in today's competitive pattern/kata and mass teaching, as well uninformed instructors, form has become more important than function. Getting too extreme in form results in the eventual loss of function, in our consciousness as well as in practical execution.

As an example, bringing the hand back to the hip which is considered to be good form. This, in and of itself, is not bad, as it teaches some aspects of biomechanics and power generation, although it seems impractical in real combat. The danger is when the function of this movement is lost to our MA consciousness resulting in this form having no function.

Of course, this (and many other pattern/kata) technique, seemingly meaningless or impractical to many, did originally have a practical combat function which atrophied (like the human appendix) over decades of emphasizing a movement till the reason for it is forgotten. In the simple hand to the hip example, the reason is grabbing and pulling the opponent in (hikite, much discussed recently in a couple of other threads).

In today's MA world, stylization has become reality. Still, if we keep in mind the function of a move and practice it in that context, it will serve as a check on its becoming so exaggerated as to render it useless.

 

[Fungus]

It's not how Mike Tyson, O'Malley or a baseball pitcher throws the rear hand with kinetic chaining, sequential motion.

Agreed. When i said "kinetic linking in both" I didnt mean to suggest they are the same, only that I see a logic to both of them. But maximum energy transfer is not the main point of the Choi method it seems.

Your own link kinetic chaining, sequential motion also explains that the reason for Choi's method is to maintain posture and balance.

The impulses and the "waves" travel different paths. In Choi's version of reverse punch the wave stays much on the same side of the body, wave motion going from rear leg, up to the arm on same side and forward. With a minimum of upperbody twist, and you retain balance. Ie. if you "miss" you wont throw yourself off balance. The price you pay is that a follow through is not possible. the target depth is very shallow. But your effective mass beeing high, as you are backing it up with the read leg, which will not go anyware during the punch. So this likely is good if you are light.

In Tysons vesion of the reverse punch the wave starts in the same way, the rear foot/leg, but is transferred to the front leg and reflected in the ground up towards the opposite arm, while allowing our body weight to follow along, loosing the rear support. So the wave is longer and contains "extra links", likely adding more power, but at the price of risking balance. Here the effective mass is the mass of your body thrown into the punch. Probably good if you are heavy.

In our class we are told that some defense work well when the opponent commits into the punch, as they can be brought off balance easier but using the attackers high momentum. You can pullback an arm fast, but to pullback your body thrown forwards is alot slower. The "shorter" faster punches is blocked differently, you can just deflect this a tiny to stop it from transferring much impulse. Otoh, are they often faster to throw.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Not understanding. At the end of the Choi sine wave GIF, they step forward, move up/straighten lead leg and "let the rear heel back down" then punch. Tyson putting his rear heel back down then punch would break the "kinetic chaining, sequential motion." Sean O'Malley (MMA) moves backwards...

Correct - I do not understand what you are trying to communicate.

 

[marvin8]

Correct - I do not understand what you are trying to communicate.

That I don't understand the meaning of your reply. How does moving forward eliminate any possibility of letting the rear heel back down?

Since the Video has him moving forward to reach the opponent this naturally eliminates any possibility of letting the rear heel back down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The Sine wave concept is like a car using square wheels. It goes 1, 2, 3, 4 and 1, 2, 3, 4. This will force you to create a form with almost the same amount of time between each punch.

This force you to train 1 step 1 punch. If you want to train

- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 3 punches.
- 2 step 1 punches.
- 3 steps 1 punch.
- ...

Can you still use the Sine wave pattern?