How does Sine Wave look when done correctly, and how does it add power?

[Finlay]

Just going to throw this in.. I'll try to return to it later.

One if the reasons that people find sine wave ineffective is that they are too tense while doing it. Concentrating on a specific component of the movement rather than the movement as a whole.

I think I heard in an interview a while back that the term sine wave was applied after the movement was developed. And some parts of the movement were then developed to fit the term sine wave rather than keeping the movement and coming up with another term.

 

[HighKick]

Just going to throw this in.. I'll try to return to it later.

One if the reasons that people find sine wave ineffective is that they are too tense while doing it. Concentrating on a specific component of the movement rather than the movement as a whole.

I think I heard in an interview a while back that the term sine wave was applied after the movement was developed. And some parts of the movement were then developed to fit the term sine wave rather than keeping the movement and coming up with another term.

If we at throwing stuff out there, I will just say the shortest distance between points is a straight line.

 

[Fungus]

Never heard of the sine wave theory in MA context, but my association to those videos is that it may be a way to "preload" the total "kinematic linkage spring" that consists of your rear supporting leg, going all the way from the rear foot through the knees, hips, shoulders and arms. I think this can add a little power, but it also likely adds time.

I do this something similar on the heavy bag, but it only works if you are relaxed and tense only on the momment of impact. Striking on the way down, then you preload with gravity, if you strike on the way up you preload the leg/hip/shoulder spring and fire it just as your supporting bakc foot is tensed.

So if we consider the linkage between the fist and the back supporting foot as a "spring with muscles and joints", then this motion can perhaps preload this in between strikes? It's how I would view this. Perhaps making it slightly harmonic, or to get your body linkage in some kind of resonance is also a way to save energy. Ie. use with your natural body resonance to load the string, instead of using muscle force to work against it. I think such energy saving techniques is also more common in philosophy of chineese MA than in Japanese karate where.

Just a thought. In fighting I fear this will take too much time though, and be too teleghraphing?

 

[Fungus]

the shortest distance between points is a straight line.

But not always the fastest one

Cart racing comes to my mind, shortest distance would be great if you have infinite power/acceleration, but as your engine alwas has finite max power, the fastest path is the one that also accounts for not wasting energy by breaking, so the optimal route is circular then.

 

[HighKick]

But not always the fastest one

Cart racing comes to my mind, shortest distance would be great if you have infinite power/acceleration, but as your engine alwas has finite max power, the fastest path is the one that also accounts for not wasting energy by breaking, so the optimal route is circular then.

I get what you are saying, but a straight-line movement, sans everything else (no initial motion or arc, etc...) is going to have the least amount of lost energy.

 

[BaehrTKD]

As I understood Sine Wave (about a month ago), it was down-up-down and you land the strike on the final down portion of the movement.

Correct, and that's why it's unnecessary.

You achieve exactly the same thing (and faster) by going up-down. (The style before sine wave.)

The downward movement at the end transfers your body weight into the technique.

This always felt like although in theory you're adding gravity to the movement (which is a + in force) you're removing the solid connection and ground reaction force (so --- force). Boxers like Mike Tyson strike on the up portion of the movement, and I can understand that adds considerable power.

Tyson strikes on the UP portion of upward-moving movements (ie: uppercuts). Also, Tyson isn't stepping towards his opponent when he punches. He is usually there already and needs only transfer his weight and shift his body to punch.

(We do the same thing.)

However, on another site I was in a discussion with someone and they said that you are 50% extended (let's say in to your straight punch) at the top of the motion, and that is when you impact the opponent.

That would be FALSE. You strike the opponent at the finish of the movement, not halfway through.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You achieve exactly the same thing (and faster) by going up-down. (The style before sine wave.)

The initial "Down" is a slight relaxation. Tell someone to stand naturally. Tell them to jump up. Watch them go down first . Yes it is stylized and overemphasized in patterns. So is a lot of stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

After seeing many discussions about this I wonder if Sine wave is just sinking. I also wonder if it should not be done with horizontal punches but with punches that are slightly angled down so that the punch can utilize horital and sinking weight movement. If this is the case then zi think thr confusion is because the reset of the stance level is being describes. Maybe it's easier to understand sink pinch then reset stance. Sink punch then reset stance.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Never heard of the sine wave theory in MA context, but my association to those videos is that it may be a way to "preload" the total "kinematic linkage spring" that consists of your rear supporting leg, going all the way from the rear foot through the knees, hips, shoulders and arms. I

So if we consider the linkage between the fist and the back supporting foot as a "spring with muscles and joints", then this motion can perhaps preload this in between strikes?

There is a video from sport science referencing closed chain or kinetic linking in MA Techniques. IMO this is what SW is all about although like many things in patterns stylized and exaggerated and in some examples overly exaggerated.

The most likely reason you never heard of SW in a MA context is because it is a metaphorical term chosen by General Choi to describe the smooth rise and fall of the body (We called it "Spring Style" before he coined that term) and it could conveniently be compared / contrasted to illustrations in his text of "Smooth Wave" which is the level head maintained when stepping in some Karate Styles, and "Saw Tooth Wave" with is a sharp angular up and down action.

 

[BobY777]

I know this has been discussed before, but I've got some specific references and I'd love an explanation from any ITF chaps/chappesses here....

As I understood Sine Wave (about a month ago), it was down-up-down and you land the strike on the final down portion of the movement. This always felt like although in theory you're adding gravity to the movement (which is a + in force) you're removing the solid connection and ground reaction force (so --- force). Boxers like Mike Tyson strike on the up portion of the movement, and I can understand that adds considerable power.

However, on another site I was in a discussion with someone and they said that you are 50% extended (let's say in to your straight punch) at the top of the motion, and that is when you impact the opponent. The remainder is follow through. This I could understand and agree it makes sense, it's literally impacting at the top of the "up" portion.

I followed up with some resources from General Choi (taking him to be the defining force or authoritative source for Sine Wave) and it seemed that my original understanding was correct.

Videos:

Book:

• In Volume 2 (page 34) of his Encyclopaedia set. He shows that the hip is raised in the middle of the step and drops down from there in to the punch (and in the middle of the step where the body is at the highest, it can only go down from there)

Please take this as an "educate me - what is correct, and how does it add power", I'm open to understanding, if the answers are logical and reasonable. Thanks in advance

Sine wave was just an invention of General Choi. There is no scientific basis or generational knowledge to back that up. It's a shame that entire branch of martial arts has passed this delusional idea worth for generations. There's no reason to discuss it any further.

Itf taekwondo has it's merits of passing the self defence/martial art part of taekwondo on, but it should stop these unscientific practices and stick to the newest scientific knowledge available had WT has done really successfully.

 

[marvin8]

“It's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”​

― Bruce Lee
So, as an initial premise you can either accept that pattern motions are often exaggerated (Like Pulling the opposite hand to the hip, or length of stances) and have an esthetic quality - or not. So, my point is don't focus so much on the up and down motion of the body (Yes, there is a light initial down) but how it gets there which is primarily thru knee flexion. Also look at the bottom video and see how as part of the knee flexion the rear heal is raised and then lowered. Now with regard to the bottom vide comment "Don't twist your Bdy" my though is he was commenting on what he considered excessive shoulder / upper body rotation since he still taught using muscles of hips and abdomen to generate power. By flexing the knees you allow the utilization of the hips and abdomen more than if knees are not flexed. You can see Mike Tyson and other boxers flex their knees as they punch. These ideas are not unique to TK-D only the terminology is and it was a metaphor which General Choi used to contrast with Flat and Saw Tooth Wave,. Adddittionaly you hve the Kinetic Linking component . Compare what happens in this video with the bottom video above .

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=278334210555173

There is a video from sport science referencing closed chain or kinetic linking in MA Techniques. IMO this is what SW is all about although like many things in patterns stylized and exaggerated and in some examples overly exaggerated.

As the OP states, "Boxers like Mike Tyson strike on the up portion of the movement," which is the opposite of Choi's sine wave. (The boxing jab can use gravity, as in the Dempsey Falling Step.) The sine wave down -> up -> down movement will be less powerful for the horizontal straight punch.

In my post #5, the videos and I explain the upward movement and a pull-counter that Tyson does. The pull-counter movement can be described as up (neutral stance) -> down -> up. Your kinetic linking video shows the boxer pushing off both feet with lead leg straight, which helps convert vertical force to horizontal force.

In Tyson vs Richardson, Tyson's movement is up -> down -> up.

https://imgur.com/jgXeZCX

 

[Earl Weiss]

In Tyson vs Richardson, Tyson's movement is up -> down -> up.
]

I see Tyson striking "While moving up" if he is throwing techniques like an uppercut which he does a lot. If his strikes are more horizontal they land as or after his body has reached it's peak. He also tends to position himself in a low almost crouched stance as a defensive position before he strikes so that positioning would have him already having done the initial down / relaxation.

 

[marvin8]

I see Tyson striking "While moving up" if he is throwing techniques like an uppercut which he does a lot. If his strikes are more horizontal they land as or after his body has reached it's peak.

He also tends to position himself in a low almost crouched stance as a defensive position before he strikes so that positioning would have him already having done the initial down / relaxation.

In Tyson vs Richardson, Tyson "moves up" while throwing the rear straight and leaping left hook. Both include up -> down -> up (opposite from Choi's), as shown in my post #5 and your kinetic linking video.

From neutral position (up), Tyson shuffles towards Richardson, then pulls (defense) his weight to the back foot (down). Tyson pushes off his back foot lifting his rear foot off the ground (up) and moving forward with his front leg straight, then strikes.

From neutral position (up), Tyson steps and slips to his right (down). Then, Tyson pushes off both feet lifting his left foot off the ground (up) throwing a leaping left hook.

Bruce Lee's 6 inch punch using down -> up movement—while pushing off both feet and straightening the lead leg.

 

[Fungus]

In Tyson vs Richardson, Tyson "moves up" while throwing the rear straight and leaping left hook. Both include up -> down -> up (opposite from Choi's), as shown in my post #5 and your kinetic linking video.

To me the kinetic linking explains both cases, doesn't it? So there is no conflict, they are complementary methods?

It seems Choi is stepping forward to the quick, and utilises gravity to reflect the kinetic wave and add power to the strike, this is why he syncs the strikes with the up -> down.

The other examples, does not use gravity, it reflects the kinetic wave from the ground, and uses an upwards push to add power, thus the strik is synced with down -> up.

Of course you can not use metod 1 for an upwards strike or uppercut, neither can you used method 2 for an oroshi or downwards strike. Choi in his video also shows what looks like an oroshi uraken, and if you do that while stepping forwards using gravity makes sense - thus method 1?

But if you want to do an uppercut or a shita tuski to the stomach or solar plexus, using method 2 makes more sense. But you would not do an upwards strike with your lead hadn if your lead leg is in the air, is it would make it weak?

Even in kyokushing we do both methods depending on the attack and movement combination. I think it comes natural, to work with gravity whe nyou strke down, and push off the ground when striking upwards. For pure horizontal strikes I think both methods partially would work, but not sure which one is more powerful. I thikn it depends on where your feet are at the impact?

 

[Earl Weiss]

To me the kinetic linking explains both cases, doesn't it? So there is no conflict, they are complementary methods?

It seems Choi is stepping forward to the quick, and utilises gravity to reflect the kinetic wave and add power to the strike, this is why he syncs the strikes with the up -> down.

The other examples, does not use gravity, it reflects the kinetic wave from the ground, and uses an upwards push to add power, thus the strik is synced with down -> up.

Of course you can not use metod 1 for an upwards strike or uppercut, neither can you used method 2 for an oroshi or downwards strike. Choi in his video also shows what looks like an oroshi uraken, and if you do that while stepping forwards using gravity makes sense - thus method 1?

But if you want to do an uppercut or a shita tuski to the stomach or solar plexus, using method 2 makes more sense. But you would not do an upwards strike with your lead hadn if your lead leg is in the air, is it would make it weak?

Even in kyokushing we do both methods depending on the attack and movement combination. I think it comes natural, to work with gravity whe nyou strke down, and push off the ground when striking upwards. For pure horizontal strikes I think both methods partially would work, but not sure which one is more powerful. I thikn it depends on where your feet are at the impact?

I think this is is a good explanation . I will leave it to others to watch several Videos of Tyson and other boxers to see how he moves depending on the punch and whether they think that consistent with the knee flexing that is characteristic of SW.

 

[HighKick]

I know this has been discussed before, but I've got some specific references and I'd love an explanation from any ITF chaps/chappesses here....

As I understood Sine Wave (about a month ago), it was down-up-down and you land the strike on the final down portion of the movement. This always felt like although in theory you're adding gravity to the movement (which is a + in force) you're removing the solid connection and ground reaction force (so --- force). Boxers like Mike Tyson strike on the up portion of the movement, and I can understand that adds considerable power.

However, on another site I was in a discussion with someone and they said that you are 50% extended (let's say in to your straight punch) at the top of the motion, and that is when you impact the opponent. The remainder is follow through. This I could understand and agree it makes sense, it's literally impacting at the top of the "up" portion.

I followed up with some resources from General Choi (taking him to be the defining force or authoritative source for Sine Wave) and it seemed that my original understanding was correct.

Videos:

Book:

• In Volume 2 (page 34) of his Encyclopaedia set. He shows that the hip is raised in the middle of the step and drops down from there in to the punch (and in the middle of the step where the body is at the highest, it can only go down from there)

Please take this as an "educate me - what is correct, and how does it add power", I'm open to understanding, if the answers are logical and reasonable. Thanks in advance

I have trained with a few sine-wave schools over the years. I would say they all taught it slightly different, but the one consistency was to Not twist, which is emphasized in the second video. I never could get used to that.
I do get the rising edge/falling physics involved but is seems to totally ignore momentum.

When I watch Gen. Choi in the first video, the footwork is Much smoother and flowing. I always wondered if this was a communication barrier, or did he change things over time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In Tyson vs Richardson, Tyson "moves up" while throwing the rear straight and leaping left hook. Both include up -> down -> up (opposite from Choi's), as shown in my post #5 and your kinetic linking video.

From neutral position (up), Tyson shuffles towards Richardson, then pulls (defense) his weight to the back foot (down). Tyson pushes off his back foot lifting his rear foot off the ground (up) and moving forward with his front leg straight, then strikes.

From neutral position (up), Tyson steps and slips to his right (down). Then, Tyson pushes off both feet lifting his left foot off the ground (up) throwing a leaping left hook.

Bruce Lee's 6 inch punch using down -> up movement—while pushing off both feet and straightening the lead leg.

I think this is just the natural mechanics of the body. I don't there is any hidden meaning of power. If you try to hit someone without moving your front leg then you will naturally make that movement. Bending knees make you smaller. If you are in a narrow stance and push forward then you'll fall over because the front foot is locked into that position. In order to prevent this, the forward movement can be seen upwards. This is what you are seeing with Bruce Lee. The rising would not happen if he shuffles into the punch or if he stepped into the punch.

The other 2 components are tricks. The pad holder is in the worst stance to receive a punch. The other trick is directing the force of the punch away from the root. This lifts the root and pushes the target backwards.

Rising punches and sinking punches have their place but zi would call it a sine wave. Thinking of it as a wave just makes the puncher look strange. I'm guessing that something was lost in translation or too much was made of simple body mechanics.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I have trained with a few sine-wave schools over the years. I would say they all taught it slightly different, but the one consistency was to Not twist, which is emphasized in the second video. I never could get used to that.
I do get the rising edge/falling physics involved but is seems to totally ignore momentum.

When I watch Gen. Choi in the first video, the footwork is Much smoother and flowing. I always wondered if this was a communication barrier, or did he change things over time.

There is a video out there where he says "Don't Twist your Body" Suffice it to say he still taught that the large muscles of the hips and abdomen are still "Twisted" to facilitate power. I think in this particular video the person had excessive rotation of the shoulders and this is what he was targeting by saying "Don't twist your body" (Note, he did not say don't move your hips in that video.)

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think this is just the natural mechanics of the body. I don't there is any hidden meaning of power. ..................

.

Rising punches and sinking punches have their place but zi would call it a sine wave. Thinking of it as a wave just makes the puncher look strange. I'm guessing that something was lost in translation or too much was made of simple body mechanics.

"Sine Wave" is nothing more than a metaphorical description used to describe the motion and contrast easily with "Saw Tooth" and "Flat Wave" It is natural but like so many "Natural" motions they are often exaggerated in Patterns. Let's face it - if we want to start critiquing unnatural stuff in patterns we can start with bringing the opposite hand to the hip whe punching.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is a video out there where he says "Don't Twist your Body" Suffice it to say he still taught that the large muscles of the hips and abdomen are still "Twisted" to facilitate power. I think in this particular video the person had excessive rotation of the shoulders and this is what he was targeting by saying "Don't twist your body" (Note, he did not say don't move your hips in that video.)

Maybe he's talking about twist like boxers do?