How do you cheat (or attempt to cheat) with La Just

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by mango.man, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. mango.man

    mango.man 2nd Black Belt

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    I don't recall every seeing any refs at USAT or California events with the LaJust crap inspecting the bottom of the foot before a fight. I know that they now check for liquid when it was discovered that it would help establish a circuit connection. But extra sensors taped to the heal? Good job Taiwan.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.0c6a20326055f0bda6d1efcb4c089e51.b11

    The things that make you say, hmmm.
     
  2. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Just goes to show that along with smarter ways to score, come smarter ways to cheat.
     
  3. texkwondo

    texkwondo Orange Belt

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    I wonder how long it will be before someone is caught with sensors taped to their gloves?
     
  4. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    Man you ever get the feeling that the tenets are never followed anymore? I mean if you cannot beat them just go a head and cheat to win.YEA BUDDY!!!!
     
  5. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    You can't win. Electornic scoring will have players cheating...manual scoring will have judges cheating. ~sigh~ It is disheartening to say the least. Tenants? Apparently those are just some decorations for the dojang wall.
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    No, they're the people you rent your house to. :)

    Have a look at fencing (the sport not the stuff that goes round the garden) they use electronic gadgets to score and have had cheating, see how they deal with it, if they have. Of course if there's more young men falling down do tell me, I'm quite fascinated by this behaviour, gives an old woman a lot of hope :lol:
     
  7. StudentCarl

    StudentCarl 3rd Black Belt

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    The cheating will diminish as the cost goes up. If you look at all the debate here about the integrity of our olympic selection process, it's not as surprising that someone would look to stack the deck if she thought she could get away with it. It's important to make an example of her to send a clear message to others.

    (Kinda makes me wonder if ringside preparation will need to be run by TSA, complete with patdowns and scanners!)

    Seems to me the first appropriate response is to ban that athlete and coach from further WTF competition forever. The NGB should face probation too, as it's a lick on them to have fielded an athlete like that.

    Integrity has to be enforced to be protected. The better question than how to cheat is whether it's worth the risk. As long as it's even close to worthwhile, people will find a way.
     
  8. ATC

    ATC Senior Master

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    Simple fix. Competitors cannot provide their own equipment for major events. Equipment will be provided by the host of the event and placed on the competitors by an official of the event at the time of the match in view of each competitor and coach. This is all equipment.

    I have heard of stories where they even had sensors in the shin and forearm guards. So the above can be the only way.

    I knew a guy that had a prototype pair of socks that still work with the system. The prototype socks had Velcro on them so you could adjust where the sensors were placed. He did not use them but he had them with him and could have. The sensors could have been placed anywhere on the foot to give an unfair advantage.
     
  9. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    Due Process should be given! But if it is determined that this type of cheating has occurred.

    Life time ban?

    I think that the athlete should be banned for 1 Olympic cycle 4 years and the NGB should lose a slot at the Olympics.
     
  10. StudentCarl

    StudentCarl 3rd Black Belt

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    I agree with due process, but this particular kind of cheating shows prior preparation and took place in an international setting. I could agree with your idea. It's hard to believe that an NGB with any integrity would give someone like that another chance. I could also see some criminal charges for the fraud, depending on how laws are written in the nation where the competition took place.
     
  11. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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    is it really cheating if they make ALL the socks to begin with but ensure they make themselves Better ones? [​IMG] or maybe it was "knock-off" socks that weren't quite up to specs, like my wife's Coach purse!!!!!![​IMG]


    where there's a will, theres a way.... to cheat.
     
  12. boxking

    boxking White Belt

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    Hello all,

    I registered this account to present the incident from Taiwanese point of view.

    I would really appreciate if people who made a judgement above can reply me your opinions after reading the reports and watching the following videos, especially the full and unedited video.

    https://sites.google.com/site/dirtytaekwondo2010/

    http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-519884

    http://tw.nextmedia.com/applenews/article/art_id/32976479/IssueID/20101120


    Thank you for all the time you spend.

    I would like to explain more details from the Taiwanese point of view if anyone has the interest to know what happened.
     
  13. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    Well boxking lwt mw ask this question how did the extra sensors get on her socks in the first place? Just because they was taken off before the match does not mean they was not trying to get by with something. It is true it was never used during the match but it was there and that alone stand on its own merit.
     
  14. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    Welcome Boxking! I work with folks in Hsinchu, Taiwan. It is nice to see you here with us. :asian:

    I do not practice TaeKwon Do, but I would enjoy hearing a Taiwanese perspective very much.
     
  15. mango.man

    mango.man 2nd Black Belt

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    I am with Terry. Just stepping into the ring with the extra sensors makes her a CHEATER!!! I could care less if they were removed before the fight began. She tried to pull one off and she got caught.

    Kinda like Emilia Morrow doping to control her weight before the 2010 US Open. Hey she didn't medal in the event so I guess there should have been no punishment? BUZZZZZZ!!!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!!!

    You cheat and get caught (at any stage of the process) you get punished!

    I believe that Yang Shu-chun should be banned from competition for 4 years and all Taiwan TKD players should be barred from the 2012 London Games.
     
  16. boxking

    boxking White Belt

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    Hello Jerry and mango, Thank you for your reply.

    Some details about the sensors' issues are mentioned in the second and the third link (pictures of the official manual for old model sock are in the video.)

    The two "extra illegal sensors" are not extra. The two sensors came with the WTF certified sock (the old model), and Yang attached the sensors on the sock by following the official Instructons.

    The smallest size of new model socks (23.5) is bigger than Yang's foot size (22.5), and that is the reason why Yang brought two pair of socks, the new model and the old model, which has Yang' foot size. Yang was wearing the new model sock initially during the pre-inspection, but the inspector had asked Yang to change the sock. So Yang changed her sock from the new model to old model, and the old model sock passed the inspection that was signed by the official inspectors.
     
  17. boxking

    boxking White Belt

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    Hello, Carol,

    It is really nice to meet you. :)
     
  18. mango.man

    mango.man 2nd Black Belt

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    Sorry boxking. Ignorance is not a defense. It is up to the players and their coaching staff to know the rules and abide by them. If someone in the inspection line told her to violate the rules and wear improper equipment it is up to the player and the coaching staff to point out that there is a problem.

    Yang Shu-chun is a cheater and deserves the full punishment that any cheater that gets caught should be given.
     
  19. taekwondodo

    taekwondodo Green Belt

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    Here is an update as of yesterday:
    "The match started with everything seemingly as normal as it should in the first 45 seconds of the first round until the engineer from Manufacturer of the Protective Scoring System (PSS), LaJust, saw something unusual about the way the Chinese Taipei player was scoring and the look of her socks. At this point he asked the center referee to stop the match to check the special socks that are worn by all the players when using the electronic system.
    As requested by the engineer, the referee stopped the match to check the player’s socks when he noticed that the Chinese Taipei player had illegally added 2 extra sensors to the heal of her socks

    After a lengthy review and assessment of the evidence and talking with the LaJust engineer, the center referee in the match and receiving their signed affidavit of the incident the illegal act committed by the Chinese Taipei they gave a chance to the President of the Chinese Taipei Taekwondo Associations and Head of the Team to present their side of this reprehensible episode of manipulation of the Rules & Regulations.
    After listening to the Chinese Taipei officials and taking into consideration that this act may have been the work of a few and the rights of other athletes from Chinese Taipei team, the WTF appointed Technical Delegate and the Competition Supervisory Board decided to only ban the player and the 2 coach involved and not the whole Chinese Taipei team from the remaining of the championship and make the following recommendation to the Asian Taekwondo Union:
    .
    * The Chinese Taipei player, coaches to be banned until their case is heard by the World Taekwondo Federation Ethics Committee.
    * The Chinese Taipei Taekwondo Association and its officials to be investigated further by the WTF Ethics Committee and the proper punishment be handed down for the incident to stop any future attempts to manipulate the WTF Competition Rules & Regulations."

    Budomart (Taiwan), which supplies electronic socks made by South Korea-based Lajust to Taiwan’s taekwondo team, said that according to the World Taekwondo Federation’s (WTF’s) website, both old and new models can be used at official taekwondo events until May 17, 2012.


    After Taiwan’s Yang Shu-chun was disqualified from the Asian Games on Wednesday for using extra sensors in her electronic socks, some media reported that the old version of the socks had been banned from competitions since July.


    The older version of the footgear has sensors that adhere to the surface of the sock while in the new version, the sensors are sewn into the sock.


    Budomart stressed in its statement that the WTF has sent messages to its members saying that certified Lajust brand electronic socks, even if they are old models, can continue to be used.


    It said the electronic socks made by Lajust have been certified by the Asian Taekwondo Union for use in all World Taekwondo Federation competitions, including the ongoing Asian Games.


    On claims by WTF officials that Yang added electronic sensors to her heels, Budomart said the old model socks have an extra sensor pad on the heel, which can be seen in the instruction booklet provided with the footgear.


    On Thursday, WTF Secretary-General Yang Jin-suk said at a press conference in Guangzhou that Lajust had never made a product with a sensor on the back of the shoe and accused Yang of trimming other pads to fit the heel location.


    The manufacturer’s representative also said that out of 12 pairs of electronic socks supplied to Taiwan’s athletes, Yang and Huang Hsien-yung, who won a gold medal at the Asian Games, used the old models, while the other 10 used the new ones."


    .
     
  20. boxking

    boxking White Belt

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    Sorry mango that I do not quite understand your statements here. Correct me If I miss understood.

    The request was asked by the official inspector, not someone because the new model socks were not sensitive enough. The old model sock was signed off and deemed 'ok' by the official inspectors. Wouldn't it be pointless for the inspection in an international event if the signature of the official inspector did not count?

    Not to mention that both the new model and old model socks are WTF certified until 2012/5/17, so none of them are improper equipments to wear.

    The reason Yang got disqualified changed several times.

    First, they claimed Yang fixed back the "extra sensors" after inspection, which is against the live video.

    Later on, the judge apologize for the statement above and claimed the reason Yang got disqualified is because the "extra sensors" are illegal, which were not made by the Lajust.

    The local agent of Lajust made the announcement that the sensors came with the socks.

    Soonly, the reason for disqualification became that the sensors were attached at the wrong place. But the sensors were attached following the official manual.


    I am not here trying to convice anyone's opinion, and no one can force others to change their thoughts. I am just thinking maybe I can provide the point of view from Taiwanese about this incident that we believe Yang did not cheat.

    Thank you mango, and everyone else again for spending time watching the video and news.123
     

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