How do you cheat (or attempt to cheat) with La Just

[ATC]

These are the same socks that I was talking about in my post above. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1337914&postcount=8

The sensors can be moved and placed just about anywhere on the sock. The guy I know did not use them but he stated the same thing as this Yang person. They were legal to use according to the rules. This was at the 2010 U.S. Open.

She may have a case. She was winning the match with head kicks anyway. The Chinese fighter was clearly out matched.

I say let the process take it course.

 

[Master Law]

These are the same socks that I was talking about in my post above. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1337914&postcount=8

The sensors can be moved and placed just about anywhere on the sock. The guy I know did not use them but he stated the same thing as this Yang person. They were legal to use according to the rules. This was at the 2010 U.S. Open.

She may have a case. She was winning the match with head kicks anyway. The Chinese fighter was clearly out matched.

I say let the process take it course.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Honestly, regardless of the socks, she was winning by headshots. Even those that do not practice any martial arts can see that. Plus, if the official inspector said OK to the socks... aren't they OK? Or am I missing something here?

Anyway, the issue here is if she was cheating or not, if those sensors were extra or not, if the socks are legal or not. Obviously cheaters should be punished to the fullest extent of the committee, but right now no one is even clear if she had any wrongdoing. Lets get this straight first. Where can I go to keep a follow-up on this? Google is giving me everyone's rants.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Seems to me that the WTF doesn't know how it's new toy works.

 

[boxking]

Hello, ATC , Master Law, taekwondodo, and bluewaveschool


I found this forum when I was researching more information about the Lajust socks. Thank you, ATC and taekwondodo, for the information provided. And if anyone know that there is a new rule about the sensors that Yang against, please let me know because all I can find is the following statement on WTF Competition Rules and Interpretation, Article 11 Permitted Techniques and Areas.

"Foot technique: Delivering techniques using any part of the foot below the ankle bone."

Actually, Yang's opponent in the video is Vietnamese, not Chinese.

Some commented that the gold metal in women's 49 kilogram division in Asian Game 2010 is between Yang and the Chinese fighter, Wu Jin Yu. And Wu's mentor, Chao Lei (Zhao Lei) was the one leading Yang's disqualification, which made this incident became more controversial. There is an article that people found in Wu's official website about how Chao Lei helped Wu.

http://star.sports.cn/wujy/story/2008-08-20/1609458.html

People can use the google translator. The translation will be weird, but it can give you some clue.

For what I known, Taiwanese team did not have a chance to appeal against the decision at the begining of the incident, until 11/20.

The investigation processes are not transparent, and I can only find the statements WTF (Liang Jin-suk) and ATU (Chao Lei) made in the press conferences. They claimed they have witnesses and evidences such as video during the pre-inspection. The witnesses haven't shown up. The only evidence shown in the publice are the two "extra sensors". The reason they claimed they do not release the video is protecting personal privacy.

To Master Law,

They stated that Yang fixed back the sensors after pre-inspection and claimed they have video and witness. But none of the video and witness showed up. Yang stated that the sensors were on her socks during the pre-inspection. The inspector disappeared until 11/21 saying the inspection process was following the rule but refused to confront with Yang.

This incident is growing bigger that it starts to become a political issue, which I think is towarding a wrong dirction at this point. Some angry Taiwanese did some irrational moves. I am embarrassed, and I think those irrational moves and overly emotion blurred the main focus here. That is another reason that I am here because I would like to hear the opinion from the Taekwondo fighters, without arguing all the political issues.

I would like to give more information and the follow up, but I would say the all information I provided will be from the Taiwanese point of view.

This is one of the Taiwan's news website.

http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?Type=Eng_Forum&TNo=11

This is the i-report, not the official CNN.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-519884



I could not conclude about the wrongdoing part before the investigation result come out. But personally, I believe Yang did not cheat, never have a second doubt about this.

I am looking forward for a explanation supported by documented evidences.

Thank you everyone who give a opinion.





To bluewaveschool,

I think the controversy part is about the old model socks. And I wish they can show the documented rule stated how the old model sensors were miss placed against the rule.

And again and again (ha), thank you for your opinion.

 

[boxking]

I just found a new website, it has news from WTF, ETU, and ATU

http://www.tpf.kr/2009tpf/en/main.asp

 

[Archtkd]

Does the WTF sparring rule (eh, statute) stating that any part of the foot below the ankle can score hold? If so shouldn't the whole sock of the electronic scoring system be sensitized? Why have sensors in just some part of the sock (foot), when the rule says any part of the foot can score?

 

[boxking]

Hello, Archtkd

Fair point. That is why I am asking if anyone, as a taekwondo fighter or related, knows the rules about the old model socks and the sensors, since the media news from Taiwan or from other countries about the socks may not be hundred percent accurate at this point.

I believe Yang did not have any intention to cheat, and I think "cheat" is a very serious word to use in a judgement that it can deny the whole value of an athlete.

I do not want to miss leading anyone to give an impression that Yang did not have any wrong doing by providing the news and information from Taiwanese (or at least my) point of view. I am not the official to judge and make the conclusion, and I am trying to hear the opinions from the taekwondo fighters about this disqualification decision.

Thank you

 

[slingblade01]

These videos were all over youtube about 4 days ago.

After watching about a dozen of these videos several times I am convinced of several things:

1. Yang was NOT cheating. In fact, she was beating her opponent with inferior equipment.

She complied with the referees at check-in and changed her newer model socks for the older models. The smallest newer socks, 23.5, are one size too big for Yang, 22.5, and do not PROPERLY FIT. She was FORCED to use the older model socks(with legal rear sensors) and APPROVED.


2. Hong should be removed from the WTF for cheating. Chao should be investigated.

Hong was intent on Yang losing when he stripped her sensors PRIOR to the match and forced her to fight with inferior equipment. He further his intent by stopping the match AFTER she took a 9-0 lead with inferior. Furthermore, he INTERFERED with the match while he is not a referee, coach, or player.

3. The Lajust contract with the WTF should be dissolved. At last check, Lajust has 9 versions of their hogu and 13 versions of their socks (maybe more).

4. China's hatred for Taiwan extends far beyond politics and into sports. What a shame.

 

[Archtkd]

Here's an article that sheds some more light or confusion on Sockgate -- http://www.bworldonline.com/main/content.php?id=21567.
On another note and maybe this is for another thread, why did the South Korean Taekwondo team perform so poorly at the 2010 Asian Games -- compared to past perfomance -- and what's the team's stated difficulty with the EBP system used at the event. The article touches on the issue.

 

[d1jinx]

Does the WTF sparring rule (eh, statute) stating that any part of the foot below the ankle can score hold? If so shouldn't the whole sock of the electronic scoring system be sensitized? Why have sensors in just some part of the sock (foot), when the rule says any part of the foot can score?

If I understand correctly, that portion of the rule is to the head.

The body has to be an propery executed technique with sufficient power to score. In designing the foot socks, they placed sensors on the "correct" striking areas of the foot EXCEPT the heal... (the toes for example dont have sensors because its not a proper striking tool like the instep.)

I was told by a LAJUST dood, that it was explained to him about the heal sensors not being used, was kicks like the PUSH kick or cut kick are not scorable techniques. If heal sensors were used then they would score and not be able to adjust the score each time, whereas a back kick could/would be manually entered Although the force sensor should pick it up and score anyway when propery executed and delivered. ( no name for reference but this was when the system first came out... take it or leave it... but makes sense to me)

The thought for the sensors was well thought out but not explained. I think if they (WTF) would EXPLAIN things and why they force the makers of the system to fabricate their equipment to thier standard, life would be easier to adjust. Lajust had handpads and headgear with sensors but the WTF wont approve it... WHY?

I think (my opinion) that this would introduce a new type of fighting, less kicking oriented. The step in and deliver 10 rapid punches to the hogu would pop 10 points causing a crappy fight. soon, people would not be kicking and instead boxing, which is what taekwondo is about (KICKING). Next thing you know we would have rules like kickboxing, that requires 3 kicks a round, which people would do just to meet the quota and box the entire match.

sure punches are a part of taekwondo.... but make for a non taekwondo SPORT.


oh, and for the record.. I have no vested interest in LAJUST... just a ex-competitor/current-coach who tries to understand the game for the betterment of my students and anyone I can assist!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[miguksaram]

Just do away with the sensors and just get back to manual. If fighters are scared that they might be cheated against due to biased judging then knock out their opponent. If they can't do that then leave no doubt that they are the ones who should win, like the Taiwan player did against China. It was obvious that the China's player was out matched.

Good hard techniques are starting to deminish because everyone relies on these sensors.

 

[d1jinx]

....then knock out their opponent. ....
Good hard techniques are starting to deminish because everyone relies on these sensors.

AMEN brother

 

[ATC]

...everyone relies on these sensors.

Picture her taking off the socks completely and then preceding to whoop the snot out of the other fighter. Now what would have been something to see.

Sensors! I don't need no stinking sensors! Ha ha ha...

 

[boxking]

Hello all,

Thank to everyone who shared an opinion, especially d1jinx provided really useful information. I think that if WTF and ATU can show all the documented reports and evidences regarding the disqualification of Yang at the earliest moment, this case will be much simpler.

Many questions raised according to the confusing statements.

Why the official frequently change explanations about the disqualification of Yang?

Are the written WTF and Asian Game rules about the uses of sensors, the technical record (they first claimed they found a weird signal on Yang's sensors), the video during pre-inspection (later, they claimed they do not have video record in the inspection area) so difficult to prepare and display?

Why the official did not present all the evidences at the earliest moment? Is "protecting the fighter's personal privacy" a good reason while Yang was already accused of cheating? Why would have to wait until the end of Asian Game to make a conclusion? Wouldn't all the attention on the Asian Game now be gone at that time?

Why would ATU deny several times when Taiwanese officials and Taiwan
Sport Affair Council proposed to confront with referee and inspectors?

Is it appropriate for an official to determine the athlete such serious judgment - disqualification, if the investigation is incompleted or if the official could not make a steady explanation about the decision?

If all the questions above could not be answered, is it appropriate for ATU, an internation organization, to release the news "Shocking Act of Deception by Chinese Taipei" on its official website right after Yang's disqualification? (The article was removed from the ATU's website, but you can still find it on google.)

And recently, WTF claimed that ATU is a different organization that is not related to WTF.


This incident is growing to be a political issue due to some of the following reasons, if anyone is interested. (if not, you can skip the number part) However, I think this not a proper topic to discuss here, and I think it is nearly impossible for anyone to find steady evidences to prove Chinese government and Korean government were directly related to this incident that no one can make an "official" conclusion about this.

-------------------------
1) You can google the relationship between China and Taiwan because it is really complicated. (Well, all politics are complicated. :flushed: )

2) Due to the relationship with China , Taiwanese can only use the name "Chinese Taipei" to attend the mostly all of the international competitions. Chinese government enforces on the holding countries to prohibit Taiwanese team attending the competitions if using the name "Taiwan". Taiwanese flag is not allowed to display when wining the medal or will be taken away from others (mostly from Chinese). On the World Cyber Games (2001), the Taiwanese player who won a gold medal in Age of Empires II displayed the Taiwanese flag, and Chinese player protested against him. The WCG (dominated by Korean) , on its official website, soon warned Taiwanese team about the action and FORGED an announcement that Taiwan submitted a full apology about the action and promised the action will not appear again......which Taiwan government DID NOT make the announcement and the promise.

3) Korean has a negative credit on its history of sport competitions. There are many examples, and here are two:
1997 East Asian Games, Men's basketball: Final, Taiwan vs. Korean
Korean extended the time in order to "fight" back because Taiwan was leading the game.
There were 10.9 seconds left before the game ended(left-hand corner). Korean team changed the clock to 1 min left but then immediately got caught by Taiwanese, so the time was changed back.

See 0:44 to 0:50.

Korean Soccer (In Japanese and English, not directly related to Taiwan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9Wrt-QHlw&feature=player_embedded

4)The election day in Taiwan is 11/27, therefore all the parties are trying to gain more vote. Burning Korean flag is one of the parties' "strategy". Shamed.

5) Chineses government insisted that they are not involved in this incident, and they hope Chinese Taipei can win more medal. However, the Chinese media kept release the news like Yang was caught cheated, the fact that Yang cheated is hard like an iron, and so on. The CCTV (Chinese official TV) even edited the competiton live video to show that Yang was caught cheating by wearing extra sensors and being asked to remove the sensors in the middle of the match. (play around with time)

Live video: took off sensors -> match begin
CCTV version: match begin -> took off sensors (See! Yang got caught cheated)

If you understand the relationship between Chinese government and Chinese media, you will understand why Taiwanese take consideration that Chinese government is involved in this. Also, due to the limited access for Chinese to reach outside world information, it is not hard to imagine that most people in mainland China will just believe the news.



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I personally do not like that this incident is becoming a political issue. It only blurred the main focus about Yang's case and fired up the irrational anger (oppose for the sake of opposition) within some Taiwanese. And those irrational anger can only hurt innocent people but not support this incident and the sportmanship.

In my opinion, WTF should make the rules/regulations more clear and specific, and also to agree with the competition host official (Asian Game). These adjustments should be officially announce to all participant countries and players in a written format. Or another easy method, that I agree with what ATC memtioned, "Equipment will be provided by the host of the event and placed on the competitors by an official of the event at the time of the match in view of each competitor and coach." And Taiwanese team should reinforce its equipment support to aviod any chance of being disqualified.



--------------------------------------------
Below are my personal sentiments about Yang and this incident. No official information.

The reason I support Yang is not only because of the nationality but also because I am Taiwanese, I had watched the training and competition video of Taiwanese team, heard the interview of Yang, read the news about Taiwanese taekwondo fighters, understanding the pride and honor for Taiwanese athletes of being able to stand on an international battlefield. To be honest, the system for training up professional athletes, especially the minor sports, in Taiwan is immature, and usually the athletes can only recieve limited resources and financial support from Taiwanese government. The older generation in Taiwan think being an athlete is not a good future career. Taiwanese athletes have to have perseverance and determination to be success and to convince their parents for supports, especially for people not come from a wealthy family.


In the interview with Yang right after disqulification, " I am better comparing when I was in the Olympics, why would I cheat?" Yang said. I can feel the confidence in her. Regardless about the gold medal, for what I known, the Chinese fighter, Wu is an excellent taekwondo fighter. (not the Vietnamese who was out matched) Yang viewed Wu as her main rival, and the Asian Game would be a great chance for Yang to see how much she improved until the disqulification happened. My heart broke when I saw Yang's tear coming out. Q_Q

And Yang was even accused as a cheater.

How many people will think Yang is a cheater and Taiwan cheated when they see the first coming out news?

And how many of them will miss the follow up report?


These days, day and night, I was on the internet researching and trying to find out what happened. Also, I think maybe I can help Yang when I provide the live video and information from Taiwanese point of view.

Btw, my English writting skill really improves these days.
And I might not be able to reply for the next few days, Happy thanksgiving!!

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Really really thank you all for spending time reading the news, watching the video, making comments about this incident.

Last, does anyone know the sport,sepak takraw?
Maybe it is not directly related to martial arts, but I think it is a really cool sport to watch and with many kicking actions.

Asian Game 2010, Final, Thailand vs Malaysia

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=20126

 

[texkwondo]

What was she even trying to achieve by having sensors on her heels? Unless she was planning on throwing axe kick to someones body while they were bent over backwards at a 90 degree angle.

 

[miguksaram]

What was she even trying to achieve by having sensors on her heels? Unless she was planning on throwing axe kick to someones body while they were bent over backwards at a 90 degree angle.

Seemed like she was able to execute that kick without the body being bent over. Did you see the fight?

 

[texkwondo]

Seemed like she was able to execute that kick without the body being bent over. Did you see the fight?

I don't think you understand what I am asking. The sensor was placed on the back of the heel. What kick would she have thrown that would require a sensor placed there? In what circumstance would you hit someones body with the back of your heel?

 

[miguksaram]

I don't think you understand what I am asking. The sensor was placed on the back of the heel. What kick would she have thrown that would require a sensor placed there? In what circumstance would you hit someones body with the back of your heel?

Spinning heal kick, hook kick, side kick, axe kick, push kick.

 

[texkwondo]

Spinning heal kick, hook kick, side kick, axe kick, push kick.

BACK of the heel. Not BOTTOM of the heel. Did you even watch the video? Are you honestly saying she was going to go out there and start throwing spinning hook kicks to the body?

 

[miguksaram]

BACK of the heel. Not BOTTOM of the heel. Did you even watch the video? Are you honestly saying she was going to go out there and start throwing spinning hook kicks to the body?

Why would anyone aim a hook kick to the body? I was thinking head myself, same with a spinning heel kick. Not sure how you were taught but I was taught to use back of the heel, axe kick too, however for sparring purposes I can see were you would not use the back of the heel as you are trying to score points not dislocate the shoulder.

Yes, I did watch the match. Pretty one sided if you ask me.