How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....

[jks9199]

The issue Tez brings up is very complex. Incel and other similar groups are seeking power that they feel they lost or never had... they're predators, and part of their reward is causing discomfort -- kind of like a cat toying with a mouse. All the actions taken to stop them once noticed are feeding that; they're forcing their victim to notice them, and to react. How do you stop them when the very actions taken to stop them reward them? Consciously ignoring them is one option; in other words, know that they are there, but don't let their presence change your behavior or reactions. But... that also might goad more extreme actions.

 

[jobo]

Just been on one of the web sites, there is some mEssed up stuff on there. Lots of mostly young men who have come to the conclusion they are so ugly that no woman would ever touch them, they refers to themselves as sub human. I suspect the truth is thAt most of them are just ordinary and they have advanced body dismophiaAND seriously underdeveloped social skills

They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf, all women and God in particular and judging by the constant reference to suicide in nearly every post, theIr more of a threat to themselves than anyone else.

It's really quite disturbing to read

 

[Anarax]

your widening the scope of the situation. the op had a specific situation and that calls for as specific an answer as can be given. by widening the scope it adds variables to the problem that in turn creates needless complexity.

These are complex problems because of the wide range of variables that are very much real, thus addressing the variables isn't adding "needless complexity." Though differentiating between being stalked alone or in a crowd isn't "widening the scope."

this often happens when people are just trying to win the argument rather then a solution to the problem.

You misinterpreted my post. I agreed with most of what you said and even mentioned the FB live isn't a bad idea. However, I did say that using the FB live threat when alone with the supposed stalker might cause escalation. I also said how the police will be helpful in that situation.

if we are to be teachers who give advise to others who will in turn rely on our instruction when their lives hang in the balance, then we need to seriously think though our responses and follow each line of thought to its conclusion.

That's why I said what I said, and I fully understand the importance of the advice that everyone gives in this thread.

in the OPs post there is a situation where a young girl is being followed. we know from the predators on line comments that (at this time) he has no intention of abduction and only intends on scaring her. she does not know this.

Exactly, nor will any young girls in the future know with 100% percent certainty what the stalker's intentions are. That is why I clarified going off visual ques opposed to feelings to determine to a reasonable degree if they're being followed.

this is a premeditated behavior. it is in no way an impulsive act. this is not irrational behavior.

That's not the point. The point is that you will not always reach accurate conclusions about criminal behavior because many think differently than law abiding citizens. That is why I gave the example of robbers killing there victims after they were recognized.

if the situation is in a lone dark ally then there would be no question about him following her and his intentions. she should run ...and fast to a safe location. there should be no confrontation initiated on her part. however the situation as i understood it, is that this could be happening in a crowded public space. this allows the predator to follow without causing suspicion and puts doubt in her mind and allows him the alibi " i wasnt stalking, i was just window shopping". my advise was directed at this situation where the victim has some doubt.

Tez's post and the post of the stalker didn't clarify if he did it with people around or not. Exploring multiple options under different conditions(alone or people around) is important for both are potential situations. Differentiating the options is crucial for their actions should fit the given situation.

if a was a predator i wouldnt stand on the street corner trying victim after victim, like casting a fishing pole in the water. you select the target very carefully and then proceed, if the attempt goes bad you get out and find another location on a different day. there will not be much the police can do. the predator will be long gone.

That depends on how you act and how the police approach the situation. At the very least the police will make a report and can start a file on the guy. They can add a description, coordinate with the local news to warn people, look into similar reports in the surrounding areas, etc.

you must not be in the age bracket where you need to worry about these things yet, but my analogy is very accurate.

The biggest difference is there aren't consequence by contacting law enforcement, but there is(medical bills) when you call the paramedics when you immediately feel discomfort in the heart area.

no one wants to go to the hospital and pay that bill if its not a heart attack.

True, but you aren't billed when you call the police.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.

Children are usually smart, but the world is dirty and that part of life tends be grounded more on "life experience" than intelligence.

Things like broken hearts, bullying, bad grades, failures as a teen or youth, argument, and even fights adds to our life experiences and helps to shape our understanding of how we see the world and other humans. Exposure to news also help. Much of what I knew about the world and humans as a teen came from:
1. Public Radio
2. Family discussions about people
3. Me being shy and watching the behavior of other teens. Because I was shy I paid close attention to what other people did, how they respond, and what was considered cool or not cool. I also listened to other people's problems which gave me some insight on what other people experienced. This was sort of a safe way to learn from the decision that other people made.

I learned a lot about the world that way. I wasn't too smart in the books and I struggled to make good grades, but when it came to people, one could say "I've heard and seen it before." I've seen how drugs and alcohol messed up other people's lives so I knew that I wasn't going to make those same mistakes or at the very least try not to make them.

Many youth hear some of these same stories where other's messed up, but for whatever reason, some students have the mind set that "It's not going to happen to them." That they are "different" and that they can do the same thing action and not fall in the same hole. We see this type of behavior even in adults.

I think when it comes to children, how do we go from telling them that they are "special and unique" to " you aren't special nor unique" and if you do the same action, it will result in the same mistake, and a similar out come. I don't know how well I've raised my son in this area, but I have often said to him, "That people think they are special and that bad things won't happen to them like it happened to someone else, and that's where they make the mistake and learn the hard way." People say don't take drugs (illegal drugs) and people still do it, even though we always see how it turns out. I showed him some before and after meth pictures and told them that all of those people made the same mistake, simply because they thought it wouldn't and couldn't happen to them. I often try to point out this same mentality whenever I can point out new examples of it.

My theory that if children can understand that they aren't invulnerable in this context then they can avoid the mistakes that others have made. They can kind of use the failings of others to help avoid mistakes that they otherwise would have. I think bullying, stalking, and the Post of the guy who gets off on stalking people is a good start for "There are sick people out there, and it's people like that who would try to harm you." I know it's easier said than done, but having a set of tools that they can depend on will help them to better navigate the world.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf,

Second part of the equation. We always talking about what a woman or girl should do but we never talk about what needs to happen to males. What is going on in their lives where their mind takes hold of this perception that makes them feel angry about what others have. What went wrong? Is there something that they are missing or something that is part of who they are. Were they born to be a creep?

 

[hoshin1600]

These are complex problems because of the wide range of variables that are very much real, thus addressing the variables isn't adding "needless complexity." Though differentiating between being stalked alone or in a crowd isn't "widening the scope."

Your comments on alone or in a crowd was not specifically what I was referring to when I said widening the scope. It was more your entire way of thinking and how you are approaching the problem. I should make it clear that I do not think your wrong. I just approach it differently. I try to distill things down to its simplest most basic form so that my solution can cover the most variables possible.
To use a physical martial art example. Every teacher will agree that one of the most annoying situations is when your showing a technique and someone keeps interjecting.." well what about this...what if he does this...what if..what if.." they are bringing up variables with the aim of using complexity to invalidate the technique, but more than that they are intended to undermine the teachers credibility.
Variables matter but only when your actually defending yourself, not when someone is trying to express an underlying concept. Using the phone is a tactic, one out of an infinite number. The underlying principal is as i explained "strategic stalemate" . You focused on the details but perhaps missed the underlying principal. This is why I made the comment about widening the scope because as with most of martial arts if you understand the principles the details don't matter so much. You can change all the variables you want, you can use all the what if's ...the principal hold true.

EDIT: I should add that calling the police is always advisable during or after any crime or self defense situation. But it's seldom a useful defense for immediate and present danger.

 

[hoshin1600]

Just been on one of the web sites, there is some mEssed up stuff on there. Lots of mostly young men who have come to the conclusion they are so ugly that no woman would ever touch them, they refers to themselves as sub human. I suspect the truth is thAt most of them are just ordinary and they have advanced body dismophiaAND seriously underdeveloped social skills

They are very very angry at good looking maLes , mALEs who have gf, all women and God in particular and judging by the constant reference to suicide in nearly every post, theIr more of a threat to themselves than anyone else.

It's really quite disturbing to read

The scary thing is that every single one of them has the potential to be the next mass shooter in a school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Second part of the equation. We always talking about what a woman or girl should do but we never talk about what needs to happen to males. What is going on in their lives where their mind takes hold of this perception that makes them feel angry about what others have. What went wrong? Is there something that they are missing or something that is part of who they are. Were they born to be a creep?

While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.

 

[Tez3]

While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.

The whole thing of how this comes about baffles me, I am at a lost to actually understand how this comes about. I've read up quite a lot about this so called 'movement' and am still no wiser why people would think and behave this way.
This is extremely worrying, not just for females but males who also seem to be at risk, talk of shootings, acid attacks etc. Actually makes IS look like moderates. this is a very good article.
Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained

We have government sponsored groups here that combat Islamic terrorist recruitment and propaganda, it seems we must also have something to combat this 'Incel revolution' as well. This is something very wrong in our world.

 

[hoshin1600]

@gpseymour & @JowGaWolf
I see it as a societal problem that really can't be discussed here because it has political undercurrent. Look at the MGTOW movement, the way SJW mindset punishes boys and men making them guilty and the societal push for victimization. There are mental health repercussions for these things.
A 7yo boy is being told via media, teachers and peers the problems of the world are his fault, he is guilty because he is white, he is a rapist, he's not allowed to have an opinion, that he is evil.
But then again that sounds like religion over the last thousand years. Lol. It's no wonder people's brains are all mesed up.

 

[Tez3]

@gpseymour & @JowGaWolf
I see it as a societal problem that really can't be discussed here because it has political undercurrent. Look at the MGTOW movement, the way SJW mindset punishes boys and men making them guilty and the societal push for victimization. There are mental health repercussions for these things.
A 7yo boy is being told via media, teachers and peers the problems of the world are his fault, he is guilty because he is white, he is a rapist, he's not allowed to have an opinion, that he is evil.
But then again that sounds like religion over the last thousand years. Lol. It's no wonder people's brains are all mesed up.

I think however some of these though are specifically regional, not found in other countries or even continents and are the consequence of political and religious thought in those areas. Religion and politics in the UK are poles apart and don't really have anything to do with each other. In the Indian continent and most of Asia, white privilege isn't an issue and men are still very much in the forefront of everything, same with the Middle East yet this incel thing affects them as well.

One of the reason I wanted to keep away from the political here was the blaming of women that often goes on even here. In the UK we don't see the radicalism of much other than Islam which we are to dealing with (but isn't such a big problem as is portrayed in some American media but then they have an agenda to fulfil.)

We have recently had our social media flooded by Americans who, misunderstanding, either deliberately or unintentionally, a medical situation here have been posting some horrendous accusations and comments against British people, our police and our courts. The reason I mention this is because of the sheer nastiness of comments and misinformation that is being given to presumably most Americans. It's quite staggering to be honest, this is in the 'public' part of social media what the hell is being said in those places where the public don't go? I get the feeling i really don't want to delve any deeper into this world of hate, misinformation and basically horror but then closing your eyes to the problem isn't going to help.

 

[hoshin1600]

I think however some of these though are specifically regional, not found in other countries or even continents and are the consequence of political and religious thought in those areas. Religion and politics in the UK are poles apart and don't really have anything to do with each other. In the Indian continent and most of Asia, white privilege isn't an issue and men are still very much in the forefront of everything, same with the Middle East yet this incel thing affects them as well.

One of the reason I wanted to keep away from the political here was the blaming of women that often goes on even here. In the UK we don't see the radicalism of much other than Islam which we are to dealing with (but isn't such a big problem as is portrayed in some American media but then they have an agenda to fulfil.)

We have recently had our social media flooded by Americans who, misunderstanding, either deliberately or unintentionally, a medical situation here have been posting some horrendous accusations and comments against British people, our police and our courts. The reason I mention this is because of the sheer nastiness of comments and misinformation that is being given to presumably most Americans. It's quite staggering to be honest, this is in the 'public' part of social media what the hell is being said in those places where the public don't go? I get the feeling i really don't want to delve any deeper into this world of hate, misinformation and basically horror but then closing your eyes to the problem isn't going to help.

You kind of prove my point Tez.
As adults we can go back and forth and debate over politics and ideologies. But to a youngster it effects the way the brain develops and they don't have the mental capacity to cope with negative messages the way an adult does. These messages have ramifications.

 

[pdg]

the blaming of women that often goes on even here

I know I said I was out, but this particular part has drawn me back in.

In the context of this thread subject, the women (and girls) can have absolutely no blame placed upon them.

It matters not how they may or may not be dressed (or anything else, but clothing is a common excuse), it's no excuse whatsoever for anyone to say "she was asking for it", because 'she' was extremely unlikely to be doing so.

If a woman looks nice, she's going to be looked at. She may even get approached because of it - that's how some people used to meet before things like eHarmony/tinder - but pushing (as I've heard someone do with "but I know you want it, look at you", and I had to step in) is well beyond the realms of acceptability.

But that's a woman, not a girl. A young girl shouldn't be getting older teens/men approaching them in that fashion at all - I know some girls look older than they are, but mistaking 11 for 17? Even if they're 16 and look 16, an older guy shouldn't really be going there anyway.

 

[Tez3]

The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men.
Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness

 

[pdg]

The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men.
Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness

If this was our first discussion and I gave my views on this sort of thing, you'd likely label me as some type of "man hating ultra feminist male with identity issues".

But I won't, because that might damage the picture of me you already have

 

[Runs With Fire]

My younger sister is fourteen. She isn't alowed to go anywhere on her own and few places without an adult. That in itself is big. Another big part, mabey the biggest, is regularly hold conversation about and walk them through a gameplan for potential dangers. No, you can't have every posible detail planned for ahead of time, but if something happens that is 50% of what you thought could happen then you have half a plan already. Saves valuble time and helps to keep a clear thought process.
I remember my dad telling me " if anyone is ever really folowing you, go to an adult male and loudly tell them "Dad, these guys are folowing me and I'm scared, and they will know you are in trouble." I did that once, I was 10 or so, probly saved me as two of the three guys following me were arrested later that day. Another huge part is for us capable adults ( perhaps with a small bit of vigilanteism in our blood) to remain aware of those around us.

I was at the Rivertown Crossings Mall a few years ago eating noodles at the food court. Before I became a martial artist, so, not the most observant. I noticed a group of young high school girls walking buy and chatting up a storm , no bigee, lots of them here. I saw them a second time a few minets later. The third time, one of them kept looking over her shoulder and none of them were talking. Thought it looked odd. Fifteen minuets later, I saw them again, scared amd walking fast going past me in the sporting goods store. I saw a group of mangy boys following them. Well, the girls were quite scared. so I stepped in. The guy at the gun counter called security but they were on the other side of the mall. Me and the clerk stood right in their way and angrily stared at them. The creeps stopped, walked about, amd muttered to themselves. Security met the girls at the counter and escourted them to thier car.

 

[oftheherd1]

So I've pondered a little...

The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.

It's hugely confrontational and intimidating in it's own way.

Try it yourself, go for a wander around - you'll have no problems finding someone simply walking behind you in the same direction.

Now, turn around and shove a camera phone in their face and demand to know why they're following you - for added fun, if they deny it hassle them by repeating "you were following me, tell me why".

Be sure to post your results.




Edit: more soon

That was what struck me too. First, you will have to slow down or stop to do the phone thing. Second, you can't count on the fact that the person following won't become violent. I would guess it would depend on where the incident was taking place and what the offender really had in mind.

I think it might well work sometimes, but sure would worry about the times it might not.

Good topic for discussion.

EDIT: The writer of the article is obviously trying to teach others, despite the protestations against rape. Anybody read 2600?

 

[hoshin1600]

it is a very unfortunate situation that the world is in. we are in a time of history where media and technology is so pervasive in our lives. there is a lot of negativity and many turn to existential nihilism. they believe the world is a horrible and unfair place and is so bad the entire thing needs to be burnt down and destroyed.
not to be nihilistic myself but i believe its going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[hoshin1600]

So I've pondered a little...

The live feed thing, I think, is a terrible idea.

It's hugely confrontational and intimidating in it's own way.

Try it yourself, go for a wander around - you'll have no problems finding someone simply walking behind you in the same direction.

Now, turn around and shove a camera phone in their face and demand to know why they're following you - for added fun, if they deny it hassle them by repeating "you were following me, tell me why".

Be sure to post your results.




Edit: more soon

sorry i missed this post somehow, not sure if you still feel this way. but yes its confrontational its meant to be.,, thats why i said i wasnt sure if it was age appropriate. but to your scenario to do it to an innocent person is a little mean. i wouldnt do this unless i was sure the person was following me and i was really sure.

EDIT: and i am a 50yo guy, i would get a different reaction than a younger women.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem with incels doesn't seem to be confined to their wanting to hurt or scare females, they also seem to have a problem with men.
Incels Categorize Women by Personal Style and Attractiveness

They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.