How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....

[EddieCyrax]

If you read the last two paragraphs of the forum post you pasted into your OP, you'll see reference to "follow a girl until she notices you", or "look for a girl walking by herself and follow her, after a while they notice you".

The way it reads is that this particular person found the "chase" excited him after the first instance involving direct contact (stopping to quiz them, then following) and he progressed to the following without contact - causing distress by simply being present.

A girl getting approached and quizzed is a different situation to 'just' being obviously followed around and much easier to identify (but unfortunately, not particularly easier to prepare for or deal with).

Three components of most physical attacks..... Interview, Positioning, Intent...... given the individual stopped her to ask for time then followed her..... 2 strikes in my book......

 

[Tez3]

i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention.

I believe they do fit the description because they have a political agenda. Are they a group, well, IS isn't an organisation as such when it comes to terrorism, they rely in individuals taking action which they will then claim as theirs. It makes it seem like a large organised unit when it's not.
Does Incel radicalise, to a large extent yes, they fee into the personalities of the target group, much the same as the anorexia groups do with girls who Google 'anorexia' and find what they think is support groups but turn out to be cheerleaders for staving yourself to death. those sites are awful.

We do have initiatives here in place to prevent radicalisation, originally Muslim but has been widened to extreme right wing groups such as neo Nazis. perhaps we need to add more groups.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...39598/prevent-duty-departmental-advice-v6.pdf

This is about social media being used to draw young people to go to Syria/Iraq but the principle is the same.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...sed_to_encourage_travel_to_Syria_and_Iraq.pdf

Again about Islamic radicalisation but the principles are exactly the same. Online radicalisation

Sorry for all the reading but this is a must read https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/228856/7052.pdf

ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic. Thanks Tez for posting about it.

It has been something that if I'm not thinking about directly is always buzzing around the corners of my mind. I have 'been' in anti terrorism all my working life and frankly I've never been so nonplussed by anything as I have been with this.

 

[Tez3]

After having this pointed out, totally unaware that Americans had decided to change the meaning of this word...just why?
this

nonplussed Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

nonplussed adjective
uk /ˌnɒnˈplʌst/

surprised, confused, and not certain how to react:

I was completely nonplussed by his reply.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.

We address individual threats all the time. There are studies that show how youth programs, education, and environment have an effect on the behavior of youth. It reduces the risks that children will have negative criminal behaviors. It won't eliminate all of the problems but it will help reduce the risk that a child will turn into an adult stalker. Sometimes a child just needs to be guided in order to avoid some criminal behaviors. Mentoring programs work well for this. Just like the CREEP is telling others that the behavior is ok, there can be a voice on the other side that says the behavior is wrong.

The thing is, that's not my point, as I explained already, it's that the entertainment media has the writers of films etc make children seem far more grown up and smart than they really are, it's obvious, how else would kids on television solve murders, become pop stars etc. Look at children's television shows and those children bear little resemblance to real children's lives. The television children and families are created for smart jokes, witty comments etc.

Mentors and Role models. Everyone needs ones. If the good people don't fill these roles then the bad people definitely will.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We address individual threats all the time. There are studies that show how youth programs, education, and environment have an effect on the behavior of youth. It reduces the risks that children will have negative criminal behaviors. It won't eliminate all of the problems but it will help reduce the risk that a child will turn into an adult stalker. Sometimes a child just needs to be guided in order to avoid some criminal behaviors. Mentoring programs work well for this. Just like the CREEP is telling others that the behavior is ok, there can be a voice on the other side that says the behavior is wrong.

That’s what I mean. That’s not addressing individual threats, but proactively reducing the chance of them becoming a threat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That’s not addressing individual threats, but proactively reducing the chance of them becoming a threat.

From my experience this is the best way to address individual threats. You can group threats into categories and address them that way. For example, stalking threats are not the same as assault threats. So in my mind an individual threat would be based the category of that threat and not a specific threat such as How not to be stalked in a movie theater at night, or how not to be stalked at a foot ball game. For me the stalking behavior is the individual threat. Some of it you can address and some of it you can't address. There are stalkers who conceal themselves (voyeurism), stalkers who want you to know they are there, and stalkers who want to stay hidden with the intent of harming you.

The first group, Voyeurism, is the most difficult to deal with. These people are good at staying hidden. I've been a victim of this when I was in my 20's I didn't know I was a victim until someone told me that someone had tons of pictures of me, walking around campus.

The second group. Stalkers who want to be seen. Are seeking some kind of Acknowledgement, sometimes this can be innocent, such as a boy or a girl, or even an adult who tries to be in the the same areas as their "crush" with the hopes that they will be acknowledge or will have a chance to socialize with that person. People who take pictures of celebs fall into this category as well as "fans." I've done this as a kid and a teenager but not as an adult. The comment "stop chasing" often refers to this behavior. Other times this behavior can be bad and Possessive. I never had the possessive behavior, thank goodness.

The third group is stalking to do harm. These people stay hidden and pop out when least expected. These are the types that follow you home.

These are 3 stalking behaviors that can be address in a preventive manner. Some can be addressed in an individual manner, but the problem with that is that you don't know how things will turn out once you are in that position. I never confronted my stalker by choice and respectfully and nicely told her that I didn't have any romantic interest in her. It was a "play by ear" response that took more than 5 minutes to say "I don't like you in a romantic way." It wasn't a direct message because I wasn't sure how she would respond or if I would put myself in danger for more aggressive behavior. I can't teach anyone this skill set. I can only say what to keep in mind.

The second and third group are easier to manage in my opinion. The second group may present an opportunity to address the behavior at an earlier stage. Guys have probably been on the receiving end of this effort. Many of us have heard "I only like you as a friend." By the way young ladies, This is not an easy let down for guys. "lol"

The third group can be dealt with by training awareness and avoiding "areas where ambushes may occur."

My friends actually helped me with the "chasing." In their messed up way, they basically shamed me. "Stop chasing girls." " You are weak, 'cause girls are supposed to come to you, stop being a itch." "You aren't a player if you have to chase *ss" "That girl got you whipped" "She's pimping you."

The nicest one was probably from another girl who told me "girls like when you don't chase them." "Be someone who they can't easily get." By the way this was the best advice ever. While I don't think I have the "criminal stalker" in me. I also didn't have someone telling me that it was Ok to stalk because it was funny.

I've just given separate sub categories that can be addressed and can go into more details to help someone determine what's they might be up against. With some of this stuff, it's just best not to have that specific moment of "What do you do if someone grabs you from the street, puts you and a car and takes you to a house and rapes you?"

I look at it like running with a pencil in my hand. What do you do if the pencil goes in your eye? What do you do if the pencil goes into your throat? How about . Don't run with a pencil in your hand. If I can do that, then I don't have to worry about the specifics of where that pencil might go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From my experience this is the best way to address individual threats. You can group threats into categories and address them that way. For example, stalking threats are not the same as assault threats. So in my mind an individual threat would be based the category of that threat and not a specific threat such as How not to be stalked in a movie theater at night, or how not to be stalked at a foot ball game. For me the stalking behavior is the individual threat. Some of it you can address and some of it you can't address. There are stalkers who conceal themselves (voyeurism), stalkers who want you to know they are there, and stalkers who want to stay hidden with the intent of harming you.

The first group, Voyeurism, is the most difficult to deal with. These people are good at staying hidden. I've been a victim of this when I was in my 20's I didn't know I was a victim until someone told me that someone had tons of pictures of me, walking around campus.

The second group. Stalkers who want to be seen. Are seeking some kind of Acknowledgement, sometimes this can be innocent, such as a boy or a girl, or even an adult who tries to be in the the same areas as their "crush" with the hopes that they will be acknowledge or will have a chance to socialize with that person. People who take pictures of celebs fall into this category as well as "fans." I've done this as a kid and a teenager but not as an adult. The comment "stop chasing" often refers to this behavior. Other times this behavior can be bad and Possessive. I never had the possessive behavior, thank goodness.

The third group is stalking to do harm. These people stay hidden and pop out when least expected. These are the types that follow you home.

These are 3 stalking behaviors that can be address in a preventive manner. Some can be addressed in an individual manner, but the problem with that is that you don't know how things will turn out once you are in that position. I never confronted my stalker by choice and respectfully and nicely told her that I didn't have any romantic interest in her. It was a "play by ear" response that took more than 5 minutes to say "I don't like you in a romantic way." It wasn't a direct message because I wasn't sure how she would respond or if I would put myself in danger for more aggressive behavior. I can't teach anyone this skill set. I can only say what to keep in mind.

The second and third group are easier to manage in my opinion. The second group may present an opportunity to address the behavior at an earlier stage. Guys have probably been on the receiving end of this effort. Many of us have heard "I only like you as a friend." By the way young ladies, This is not an easy let down for guys. "lol"

The third group can be dealt with by training awareness and avoiding "areas where ambushes may occur."

My friends actually helped me with the "chasing." In their messed up way, they basically shamed me. "Stop chasing girls." " You are weak, 'cause girls are supposed to come to you, stop being a itch." "You aren't a player if you have to chase *ss" "That girl got you whipped" "She's pimping you."

The nicest one was probably from another girl who told me "girls like when you don't chase them." "Be someone who they can't easily get." By the way this was the best advice ever. While I don't think I have the "criminal stalker" in me. I also didn't have someone telling me that it was Ok to stalk because it was funny.

I've just given separate sub categories that can be addressed and can go into more details to help someone determine what's they might be up against. With some of this stuff, it's just best not to have that specific moment of "What do you do if someone grabs you from the street, puts you and a car and takes you to a house and rapes you?"

I look at it like running with a pencil in my hand. What do you do if the pencil goes in your eye? What do you do if the pencil goes into your throat? How about . Don't run with a pencil in your hand. If I can do that, then I don't have to worry about the specifics of where that pencil might go.

By individual threat, I meant the individual person. I think we're saying much the same thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By individual threat, I meant the individual person. I think we're saying much the same thing.

Oh ok. I was thinking that you were referring to the threat "event" or "behavior" and not the threat as in the person.

 

[TSDTexan]

Firstly, a caveat. This is not a gender politics discussion, it's not about whether such groups as 'Incel' exist, though there is good evidence they do ( the site this came from was 'Incels.me', the poster was reported but whether any action was taken I don't know) the driver who mowed down people in Canada allegedly 'vowed loyalty' to them/one. At least one social media site has banned groups from posting. The point is that whether it's a group posting or an individual, this type of post is all over social media, it's inciting those who have the mindset or inclination to do this. The posts are also shared and don't die even if the originator is banned or even arrested/charged.

My point and my only point of posting this is to help find ways we can help the young girls who have already been affected by this ( I know two in my area, not just 'know of' actually know them personally) or how to warn and instruct girls about what they should do if they find themselves in this situation ( whether or not incited by these posts). The police in our area are aware and I know that the Home Office here have this in their sights and are attempting to 'do something', what they can do I don't know I'm not an IT expert. I have reason to know that this is more than a local problem, not even just a UK problem but most likely a worldwide problem, certainly it's on English speaking sites. I also know there is a lot of worry from parents as well as children about issues like this.

I have copied one of the posts, I specifically would like us to explore ways and means of helping girls, as many know I'm a Girl Guiding leader, if we can come up with good solutions I can share them widely. I have racked my brains hence my asking for help, it's not directly a self defence situation though it could be I imagine. It goes against the grain to allow someone to scare me but it's not me it's scaring but young girls so running away ( which is what my young friends did) seems a good idea though it's what the poster and his ilk want presumably.


I have kept the post to last deliberately, I have also just copied it rather than link it, to take away all comments on it made by various people to keep any political arguments out of it. ( some though suggest running away, some confronting the person)

so how do we protect and warn our children?

Teach them how to livestream from their smartphone. And to loudly tell a stalker that they are doing so... if anything happens the creepers face and phisical identity is now being recorded live.

The stalkers prey on anonymity. Give them exposure, immediately! They run like roaches when you turn the lights on.

This is something that I recently taught a small class of 12 to 15 year olds.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

(might have mis interprited the point) But i usually am sensitive to people following me and its more of a mindset to constantly scan and check and keep notes on whos around you and if they are doing it right you wont know they are doing it. Thats the reality of getting tailed for anything the point of being a greyman is it doesn't trigger anyone's suspicion and you need to work in some form of counter follow drill or tactic. I have the blessing to live in a place where its not too busy most of the time i usually go out, but thinking back on the times i go to different towns im not always alert of if anyone's following me and sometimes not in my town. I cant actually recall the last time i objectively thought and actually did check for people following me, so long they don't follow me home i don't really care.

So to clarify it here as i go on tangents sometimes: Its a mindset more than anything and if you want complete coverage you have to presume you are being followed every time you leave your house for it to properly work. Thats just the reality of it, you aren't 100% safe anywhere. These are just my opinions from what i have looked into how surveillance works anyway.


(Im not a female to make the point clear, not that i think it matters much)

 

[Isaiah90]

[/QUOTE]
I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.

 

[dvcochran]

This is a excellent and intriguing post. It makes the mind full of thoughts and options for dealing with the situation.
It is true that most predators are pathological but how/when/why they get to the place where they take it too far is quite a mystery. Accounts like these should be the highest of red flags. I pray the authorities in your area press this to the fullest extent. Not just for this one incident but to put the fear of God in others considering the same. That said, here are a few random thoughts that hopefully provoke other ideas.
I have started this post 3 times because of work so if it sounds disconnected, it is.

• If citizens are truly the voice of our nation(s) we all have to be proactive in forcing stiffer penalties triggered at lower levels of action(s). This will make the "toe dippers" think harder about their next action.
• Are we willing to say no person regardless of sex should ever walk alone? I certainly am not. However, for many their environment greatly raises the stakes. If that was the girls situation, then why was she willing to walk alone? If it is commonplace to walk alone, situational awareness (there I said it) has to be taught not only as a extra-curricular but as a way of parenting.
• Many escalated events such as rape and murder increase through generations in a given area. If that is the area a person lives in it stands to reason that the counters to such events should increase and improve through the same period of time.
• This is the most "entitled" generation in recent history as a whole. If people walk around thinking someone else is always going to fix their problems then there is very little help for a person in the above scenario. Teaching independence is a parents responsibility. If you think there is a magic pill you can give the girl you are very wrong. Oddly, I am certain if there are statistics on it I bet there are more reported victims of similar crimes from two parent families.
• Anything we tell a victim to do is retro-active. I do not advocate teaching kids to be afraid of walking around, quite the opposite. The generational backslide in parenting has to be stopped. Responsibility has slid and thus has to increase to resolve such large scale problems.
• This is a MA forum. Of course we all think SD is part of the solution. It is, at best, a very small part. Self defense without the mental acumen to know how/when/where/why to apply it is tantamount to useless. That said, it is always easier to ask forgiveness rather than permission.
• It is an ever changing world and we all have to learn how to leverage technology. I am certain the bad guys are. How did the perp know the approximate age of the girl without some research?
• How, with today's technology do sites like the one mentioned slide through the cracks? Totally agree with the 1st amendment but logically policing of certain key phrases is part of the world we live in because of technology.

I think I should stop here.

 

[Tez3]

I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.[/QUOTE]


Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.

However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group of people, one of whom has already killed several people.

I am not discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.

 

[IvanTheBrick]

so how do we protect and warn our children?

What I see here is absolutely asinine behavior from some people who clearly have had some sort of problems or are just too lonely. I don't know how to approach this problem but I know how NOT to approach it. We can't really make any sort of attempt to correct the people behind this behavior, that will just turn into chaos - it will be like teaching bullies not to bully; it's always going to be a problem. But I have never seen or heard of such disgusting behavior. I have a little sister and this photo makes me sick

 

[Tez3]

What I see here is absolutely asinine behavior from some people who clearly have had some sort of problems or are just too lonely. I don't know how to approach this problem but I know how NOT to approach it. We can't really make any sort of attempt to correct the people behind this behavior, that will just turn into chaos - it will be like teaching bullies not to bully; it's always going to be a problem. But I have never seen or heard of such disgusting behavior. I have a little sister and this photo makes me sick

I don't know what to do or say either which is why I made this thread, to me it's incomprehensible that people would do this. I think when you get a bunch of people together who feel entitled AND need to get revenge on society we have a huge problem. Many experts are looking at the Incel movement as a potential terrorist 'organisation' though organisation isn't perhaps the correct word probably 'movement' described it better, certainly they seem to feel they can take their 'rage' out on the rest of us.
It seems too that the current political situation in come countries is leading to these people feeling, like racists, that they can emerge from under their rocks and make public their 'grievances' and thoughts. It makes me feel sick too, what I don't want to feel though, is helpless.

What Is the Incel Movement? 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

How involuntary celibates are dangerous in their desires

 

[IvanTheBrick]

I don't know what to do or say either which is why I made this thread, to me it's incomprehensible that people would do this. I think when you get a bunch of people together who feel entitled AND need to get revenge on society we have a huge problem. Many experts are looking at the Incel movement as a potential terrorist 'organisation' though organisation isn't perhaps the correct word probably 'movement' described it better, certainly they seem to feel they can take their 'rage' out on the rest of us.
It seems too that the current political situation in come countries is leading to these people feeling, like racists, that they can emerge from under their rocks and make public their 'grievances' and thoughts. It makes me feel sick too, what I don't want to feel though, is helpless.

What Is the Incel Movement? 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

How involuntary celibates are dangerous in their desires

I don't even think rage is the main factor. I think it is mostly like some sort of trauma. I mean what kind of person would play these sick games just for attention? Someone who suffered from neglect in my opinion.

 

[jobo]

This is a excellent and intriguing post. It makes the mind full of thoughts and options for dealing with the situation.
It is true that most predators are pathological but how/when/why they get to the place where they take it too far is quite a mystery. Accounts like these should be the highest of red flags. I pray the authorities in your area press this to the fullest extent. Not just for this one incident but to put the fear of God in others considering the same. That said, here are a few random thoughts that hopefully provoke other ideas.
I have started this post 3 times because of work so if it sounds disconnected, it is.

• If citizens are truly the voice of our nation(s) we all have to be proactive in forcing stiffer penalties triggered at lower levels of action(s). This will make the "toe dippers" think harder about their next action.
• Are we willing to say no person regardless of sex should ever walk alone? I certainly am not. However, for many their environment greatly raises the stakes. If that was the girls situation, then why was she willing to walk alone? If it is commonplace to walk alone, situational awareness (there I said it) has to be taught not only as a extra-curricular but as a way of parenting.
• Many escalated events such as rape and murder increase through generations in a given area. If that is the area a person lives in it stands to reason that the counters to such events should increase and improve through the same period of time.
• This is the most "entitled" generation in recent history as a whole. If people walk around thinking someone else is always going to fix their problems then there is very little help for a person in the above scenario. Teaching independence is a parents responsibility. If you think there is a magic pill you can give the girl you are very wrong. Oddly, I am certain if there are statistics on it I bet there are more reported victims of similar crimes from two parent families.
• Anything we tell a victim to do is retro-active. I do not advocate teaching kids to be afraid of walking around, quite the opposite. The generational backslide in parenting has to be stopped. Responsibility has slid and thus has to increase to resolve such large scale problems.
• This is a MA forum. Of course we all think SD is part of the solution. It is, at best, a very small part. Self defense without the mental acumen to know how/when/where/why to apply it is tantamount to useless. That said, it is always easier to ask forgiveness rather than permission.
• It is an ever changing world and we all have to learn how to leverage technology. I am certain the bad guys are. How did the perp know the approximate age of the girl without some research?
• How, with today's technology do sites like the one mentioned slide through the cracks? Totally agree with the 1st amendment but logically policing of certain key phrases is part of the world we live in because of technology.

I think I should stop here.

To your last point, it not at all easy, maybe not actually possible to censor \ restrict site like this, as the nature of the internet is international /across borders and it's web like nature means there are an infinite number of routes to reach a site.

The main ince l site is located in Montenegro, where they may or may not be even slightly concerned what incels are doing, saying in the US or the uk, and as long as it doesn't breach local laws, there is no reason to take action.

Regimes with a,serious need to restricted information net cant shut down the internet, unless they actually turn it in to an intra net

 

[dvcochran]

I think we need to stop promoting stranger danger because it's avoiding the real issues. Most sexual predators are people you know like family, friends, co-workers, etc. Once we address those issues, these problems will go away.

Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.

However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group people, one of whom has already killed several people.

I am not discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.[/QUOTE]

I followed your suggestion and did more research. The most simple answer I found was from Psychology Today. An involuntary celibate is a person not quite gripped with the world around them. They have been allowed to create a virtual society or environment that they relate with more than the real world. Of course, we can go on forever about the dangers of such a lifestyle. Again, they have zero situational awareness. Again, there are extreme flaws in the parent profile because they have allowed their child to bond with a virtual world to such an extreme extent.
You infer not to make the responses so "general" which I do not think mine are. They are answers to global problems which this clearly falls under. This is not an individuals problem. This is a societal problem. A multi generational problem. Mistakes like this have been made in the past. They are harder to see because of the inception of technology at such a steep grade. In regards to mankind, we continue only to learn from our past mistakes when great death and destruction takes place. These kind of innocuous issues are too often swept under the rug because they are regional or do not damage enough people to get attention. Sad. I stand on my answers. If I am missing something in the question, please elaborate.

 

[Tez3]

Really? I am more than aware of the issues about rapes/abuse etc I have posted about it several times.

However, this thread is about a very specific problem and a very specific group people, one of whom has already killed several people.

I am not discussing general self defence or general advice but this one post that was seen worldwide on social media. I suggest you look up the 'Incel' movement and then suggest how this movement will go away if we just ignore it.

I followed your suggestion and did more research. The most simple answer I found was from Psychology Today. An involuntary celibate is a person not quite gripped with the world around them. They have been allowed to create a virtual society or environment that they relate with more than the real world. Of course, we can go on forever about the dangers of such a lifestyle. Again, they have zero situational awareness. Again, there are extreme flaws in the parent profile because they have allowed their child to bond with a virtual world to such an extreme extent.
You infer not to make the responses so "general" which I do not think mine are. They are answers to global problems which this clearly falls under. This is not an individuals problem. This is a societal problem. A multi generational problem. Mistakes like this have been made in the past. They are harder to see because of the inception of technology at such a steep grade. In regards to mankind, we continue only to learn from our past mistakes when great death and destruction takes place. These kind of innocuous issues are too often swept under the rug because they are regional or do not damage enough people to get attention. Sad. I stand on my answers. If I am missing something in the question, please elaborate.[/QUOTE]


I'm puzzled, my reply wasn't to you but Isaiah90 who is clearly quoted at the top of my post. I honestly don't know why you thought my post was directed at you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Truth is, I don't let and didn't let my 12 to 14 year olds (boy and girl) go anywhere, at night, by themselves. Heck the almost 20 year old (male) makes me nervous when he tells me the places he goes and he is an adult and I have no control over where he goes, I can only hope he picked something up about awareness...but sometimes I wonder

The subject of the OP, IMO, is a predator, and a would be molester, plane and simple and in NYS it could get him on the wrong side of the law harassing minors like this, especially in the current atmosphere of the MeToo movement. And I hope he does end up on the wrong side of the law so they can put and end to his "fun"

But what to do, you can only educate your children and as a parent, take care of them and protect them like a parent should