How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Laplace_demon, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    I don't like the way KKW patterns are executed. Further, the blocks don't look organic from such ridiciously high stances (not really a stance at all). The actual "choreography" of the patterns is less objectionable. Neither The ITF or KKWs patterns have anything to do with their sparring format. So they are pretty much tied in that negative respect.
     
  2. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    ITF without Sine Wave (which they only incorporated because the General wanted it) is probably my favourite, although I haven't seen all TKD patterns.
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I know the Pinan katas very well though in the Wado form (which actually is only very slightly different from the Shotokan ones). I've seen the patterns in TKD and they are not in the least alike. I also know the TSD hyungs very well and they are simpler versions ( to me) of the karate ones.
    When I went along to my friends TKD class, he was the instructor, when his students did their patterns I did my katas, we had an interesting time looking at the differences, we all enjoyed exploring each others style of martial art. I'd recommend it, if you can do it without saying 'we do it better ' lol!
     
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  4. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    From what I've read, one reason high stances are emphasized in the first few Taegeuk forms is specifically to prepare the student for sparring earlier in their training. The predecessor forms (the Palgwae forms) used lower stances in their first few forms, which presumably were believed to not prepare students as well for sparring. It's a credible explanation too, since Ji Do Kwan was finally represented in the design of the Taegeuk forms (but Ji Do Kwan was not represented in the design of the Palgwae forms), and Ji Do Kwan was known for its outstanding sparring.

    Taegeuk Poomsae - Taekwondo Wiki

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2015
  5. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He was quoting an earlier post from Tez where she made what I assume is a typo. (If it isn't, then she can tell us all about really old traditional arts. :) )
     
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  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd like to say it was the computer that got it wrong but I cannot tell a lie, it was I. ( unless the computer was channelling how I felt reading some of the posts from a certain person on here!!)
     
  7. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    I'd be very interested in seeing this post. Can you provide a link to it? Did the poster include any sort of citation (link, quote from a book, etc.) for what Gen. Choi supposedly said?

    Pax,

    Chris
     
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  8. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Because it is not important that what you say is correct. It is important that everybody else is wrong. Apparently.

    Both great sets of patterns, both great martial arts in their own right. Why switch? Because there's always more to learn.

    Me too. On the topic of Chil Jang, high and narrow stances but with a low centre of gravity, and unyielding combinations like the backfist, target crescent, target elbow. No mercy! Also the symbolism of bojumeok, haneul, tang and saram. The whole form focuses on moving the CoG forward, back, up and down to deliver power from seemingly unstable positions that with practice are solid as rock. Love that form.

    The word 'ridiculously' is rather emotive, don't you think? You walk around in the same stance all day. It is the one you are very probably going to be in during a real life conflict situation. It also allows for a huge amount of power generation when dropping out of it into other stances. Sort of a built in bonus if you like.

    If by 'organic' you mean natural, those blocks look and feel perfectly natural to me. Just like any other natural movement.


    Only some people are capable of this kind of tolerance in my experience. They are the ones I try to keep around.

    I have heard that too, but I have also heard some other hypotheses.

    Like using CoG drop and waist twist for power generation. Both of these occur together naturally with a low block between movements 4 and 5 of Taegeuk Il Jang, and again between 10 and 11 and again between 16 and 17. And many times in the patterns that follow with punches and other techniques. It is difficult to get the same power going apkubi-apkubi that you can get going apseogi-apkubi, especially with a 90 degree turn.

    I've also heard that the higher stances were included to make the forms easier to learn for an audience with a wider range of abilities - the consistent use of apseogi means that beginners can concentrate more on their upper body motion coordination before having to throw in mixed stances.

    The best theory IMO is that the three stances in the beginner forms and the transition between them are the basis of not only manipulating your own body weight, but also an opponent's. These stances are the ones used in self defence when controlling an opponent to the ground. So they are the ones to drill first.
     
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  9. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    [QUOTE="Gnarlie, post: 1705456, member: 27131"

    If by 'organic' you mean natural, those blocks look and feel perfectly natural to me. Just like any other natural movement.


    .[/QUOTE]

    There is no stability in such a block. Nobody stands straight up, in that sloppy manner. The Chang Hon stance is also high, but not that high. I have the right to express my opinions, be it positive or negative. Just as I have over a movie I just saw. Doesn't mean that I offend the director by saying that his movie sucked. And If I do, so be it. I wil still speak my mind.
     
  10. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    And anyone accusing me of being a troll or a lousy beginner (yellow belt). Send me a private message and come spar me full contact at my club.
     
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  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    It is perfectly stable when I do it. Maybe you just don't know what you're doing.
    It's far from sloppy, if you believe it is sloppy then you definitely don't know what you are doing. And yes, people walk around straight all the time.

    ... and?
    Not if it is style bashing you don't. There are ways of being critical of something without being insulting towards it. You might want to steer clear of emotive language like 'ridiculously', for example. There's a difference between saying you don't know what you are talking about, and saying you are a ridiculously ill informed newbie, for example. I would never say something like that.
    You are entitled to your opinion and the right to express it. But words like 'ridiculous' and 'sloppy' are totally subjective, and amount to bashing.

    You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. And if your opinion is utter nonsense, then you can expect to be taken to task over it.
     
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  12. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    This site has rules about challenge posts.

    Why don't you just give your posts some credibility by letting everyone know what your actual martial qualifications are? You have been asked a number of times, including by me, what your experience is within Shotokan, ITF, KKW, and other martial arts. You have systematically avoided answering these questions, which frankly combined with your posting style, attitude and lack of knowledge can only leave us to draw one conclusion: Newbie. I don't believe anyone has used such emotive language as 'lousy'.
     
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  13. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    There is no fighting stance in their beginners blocks in patterns. You don't walk around fighting. Thats why people walk around straight. Wheb they fight they switch.
     
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    Yes, but switch to what? Certainly nothing from ITF or Shotokan forms. The typical fighting stance we see for boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA (to a lesser degree) is a similar relatively high stance with a fairly even weight distribution.

    Apseogi isn't actually straight up, by the way. The weight is more over the front foot. It is a representation of a mobile fighting stance, and is certainly closer to the realistic starting point that many other TMA stances.
     
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  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm a 'lousy beginner', a yellow belt in TKD. I was also at one point a yellow belt in Wado Ryu karate and Tang Soo Do until I earned Dan grades in both. I wear a white belt in BJJ. Denigrating beginners is a very low thing to do.
     
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  16. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Am I misremembering or did you state in an earlier post that you don't want to do full-contact sparring?

    In ay case, challenge posts are not allowed on MartialTalk.

    Calling you a yellow belt isn't an "accusation." That's what you told us your rank was. Folks are just taking you at your word. Being a beginner (which a yellow belt is) isn't a bad thing. All of us were beginners at some point.
     
  17. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    A good grasp of the obvious. Most everything in the ITF was the way General Choi wanted it. Because.......wait for it..........this was his organization.

    Reading He Young Kim's TKD History book, he relates how GM Van Binh recalled training in Vietnam with General Choi, in 1968 and learning about sine wave at that time.
     
  18. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    And I am sure there are flaws to be find for Chan Hon patterns as well. I don



    And thats my point. They may later add stuff that they don't even like or find make any sense, simply to please the General. That is a bad thing, in case you guys didn't figure out where I was going with that.[
     
  19. Laplace_demon

    Laplace_demon Black Belt

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    I am NOt a beginner by any reasonable definition. I have already stated repeatedly that there are black belts that cant kick. The fact that I can, doesnt mean I am good, compared to them, but in no way can I be concidered beginner level outside of mere technicalities related to belts.
     
  20. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Does that include dance-offs? :)

    [​IMG]
     

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