The Destroyer Style
Yellow Belt
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Like I wrote you dude if you don't (stretch) you will lose motion.
How A Real Man Fights
- Thread starter Shinobi Teikiatsu
- Start date
The Destroyer Style
Yellow Belt
- Joined
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- Messages
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Here is a question. How many fighting styles are you in? If haven't beem in a wide range, then how do you know that size doesn't affect other fighters?
OP
Shinobi Teikiatsu
Green Belt
- Thread Starter
- #63
Fistly, you don't need to double post so many times. Secondly, he's not talking about any kind of specific fighting style, he's saying that proper exercise will not hinder movement in any way. Not that "doing x-kind of exercise helps karateka and doing y-kind helps aikidoka." He's simply stating the way the human body works and how to acquire a full range of motion while mainting lean muscle. Stop patronizing people around you when you clearly aren't understanding the message.
The Destroyer Style
Yellow Belt
- Joined
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Chill out man, I am just messin with dude cause he is so arrogant. I really do have proof to back up what I'm saying. It won't slow you down, but
the larger a muscle is the more it will restrict the distance two bones can reach, he is arguing with what should be common sense. You cannot bring your ulna and radius as close to your humerus with 18 inch biceps as you could with 12, the biceps will block the full movement, it's something mainly only professional bodybuilders should be concerned with but it still is a fact. Even with stretching it still henders movement. Simply because the mass is larger.
Sorry for messin with you dude. You just made an easy target.
Cody
the larger a muscle is the more it will restrict the distance two bones can reach, he is arguing with what should be common sense. You cannot bring your ulna and radius as close to your humerus with 18 inch biceps as you could with 12, the biceps will block the full movement, it's something mainly only professional bodybuilders should be concerned with but it still is a fact. Even with stretching it still henders movement. Simply because the mass is larger.
Sorry for messin with you dude. You just made an easy target.
Cody
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Thank you Shinobi. I will make one last reply on this. He has also been PM-ing me several times and so far I feel I have been quite patient and have honestly tried to educate him on the facts of the matter. I will try one more time and after this, I'm done as the tone is getting less friendly.
As I awnsered you in the PM, anyone who does not work at building and maintaining their stretch will lose it. However, someone using proper resistance training through a full range of motion will actually promote greater flexibility than someone who does not weight train provided both are not participating in a stretching routine. In addition, the strength athlete (if properly trained) will not have the issues with strength imbalances that reduce range of motion that a non-strength athlete (including the vast majority of martial artists) suffer from. As I mentioned to you in my reply to your PM, I have a degree in Ex. Phys. (also one in Political Science, but that is a moot point) so I have done a fair amount of actual research on the subject.
As far as attacking/questioning my martial arts background, if you must have a bit of my resume, so be it. I have been training almost non-stop since Aug. 1971. My father used to be in the Special Forces and was very receptive to my beginning the arts at a young age. I teach MMA, TKD, Muay Thai, Submission Grappling (primarily BJJ, but some Judo and Sambo added) and Escrima. I have earned master's ranks in TKD and Hapkido in addition to dan rankings in American Kenpo, Judo and Jujitsu. I am also a certified tactical master (CDT) and have a teaching certificate in Tai chi (though in truth, my wife teaches that and I have let that one slip).
I am one of the highest ranking students of KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. and KJN Tony Thompson and also trained under their instructor GM Dan Kyu Choi (9th dan TKD & Hapkido) before he retired. I have also trained extensively with champions and masters including Mike Inay and Jeff Elliott (Inayan Escrima) Jimmy Tacosa (Cabales Serrada Escrima), Benny Urquidez (American Kickboxing), Alex Gong, Woodman, Dr. Knees and the rest at Fairtex (Muay Thai), Mike Swain (Judo),and John Sepulveda and Jeff Speakman (American Kenpo). Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champion and former Strikeforce champion) and Bob Cook (head MMA trainer at AKA who coaches Koscheck, Fitch, Velaquez, Quarry and other UFC headliners) are my primary MMA and Submission Grappling coaches for the last decade. These are not just people I have done seminars with, but people I have had long, ongoing training relationships with over the years (though I am not training with all currently and sadly, some are no longer with us). I have also trained pretty extensively with the likes of Ralf and Cesar Gracie (BJJ) as well as got some refinement from BJ Penn. I have worked with GM Wally Jay and quite a bit with his son and succesor Leon Jay (SCJJ) and Will Higginbotham (Ryukyu kempo jitsu). I have also trained in the Chinese MA's with people like Dennis Brown, Anthony Chan and John Chuk, though most of that was several years ago.
This is not even counting the people whose seminars I have attended over the years. I have also done quite well in competition on the state, national and even international levels for what that's worth. I am planning to compete in the seniors division at either the US Open or NAGA's in submission grappling in 2010 if my knee holds out. My primary instructors always encouraged (i.e. forced) their students (especially the master-level ones) to continue growing and to learn as much as we can and bring back "home" what we thought was useful. Their goal was for us to be versatile enough that any of our black belts could go into ANY system and be on level with their people in their own system. If you want to compare your resume, feel free.
Regardless, what you do is your own business. If you want to stick your head in the sand, so be it. It will just help me (and my students) stay that much further ahead of you. If you ever DO decide to actually do the research rather than just listen to old wives tales, I don't mind steering you in the right direction.
As I awnsered you in the PM, anyone who does not work at building and maintaining their stretch will lose it. However, someone using proper resistance training through a full range of motion will actually promote greater flexibility than someone who does not weight train provided both are not participating in a stretching routine. In addition, the strength athlete (if properly trained) will not have the issues with strength imbalances that reduce range of motion that a non-strength athlete (including the vast majority of martial artists) suffer from. As I mentioned to you in my reply to your PM, I have a degree in Ex. Phys. (also one in Political Science, but that is a moot point) so I have done a fair amount of actual research on the subject.
As far as attacking/questioning my martial arts background, if you must have a bit of my resume, so be it. I have been training almost non-stop since Aug. 1971. My father used to be in the Special Forces and was very receptive to my beginning the arts at a young age. I teach MMA, TKD, Muay Thai, Submission Grappling (primarily BJJ, but some Judo and Sambo added) and Escrima. I have earned master's ranks in TKD and Hapkido in addition to dan rankings in American Kenpo, Judo and Jujitsu. I am also a certified tactical master (CDT) and have a teaching certificate in Tai chi (though in truth, my wife teaches that and I have let that one slip).
I am one of the highest ranking students of KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. and KJN Tony Thompson and also trained under their instructor GM Dan Kyu Choi (9th dan TKD & Hapkido) before he retired. I have also trained extensively with champions and masters including Mike Inay and Jeff Elliott (Inayan Escrima) Jimmy Tacosa (Cabales Serrada Escrima), Benny Urquidez (American Kickboxing), Alex Gong, Woodman, Dr. Knees and the rest at Fairtex (Muay Thai), Mike Swain (Judo),and John Sepulveda and Jeff Speakman (American Kenpo). Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champion and former Strikeforce champion) and Bob Cook (head MMA trainer at AKA who coaches Koscheck, Fitch, Velaquez, Quarry and other UFC headliners) are my primary MMA and Submission Grappling coaches for the last decade. These are not just people I have done seminars with, but people I have had long, ongoing training relationships with over the years (though I am not training with all currently and sadly, some are no longer with us). I have also trained pretty extensively with the likes of Ralf and Cesar Gracie (BJJ) as well as got some refinement from BJ Penn. I have worked with GM Wally Jay and quite a bit with his son and succesor Leon Jay (SCJJ) and Will Higginbotham (Ryukyu kempo jitsu). I have also trained in the Chinese MA's with people like Dennis Brown, Anthony Chan and John Chuk, though most of that was several years ago.
This is not even counting the people whose seminars I have attended over the years. I have also done quite well in competition on the state, national and even international levels for what that's worth. I am planning to compete in the seniors division at either the US Open or NAGA's in submission grappling in 2010 if my knee holds out. My primary instructors always encouraged (i.e. forced) their students (especially the master-level ones) to continue growing and to learn as much as we can and bring back "home" what we thought was useful. Their goal was for us to be versatile enough that any of our black belts could go into ANY system and be on level with their people in their own system. If you want to compare your resume, feel free.
Regardless, what you do is your own business. If you want to stick your head in the sand, so be it. It will just help me (and my students) stay that much further ahead of you. If you ever DO decide to actually do the research rather than just listen to old wives tales, I don't mind steering you in the right direction.
Allen a.k.a. Destroyer
Yellow Belt
Jordan fades back... he shoots! ... And that's the game!
Getting back to topic:
:rtfm: RTFM
It seems like the general consensus here is that:
-A really "real man" will do whatever is necessary to end the fight.
-A really "real man" is not so insecure with himself that he has to go around picking fights with smaller people.
-Some really "real men" "can walk down the street in mini skirts and drop anyone with minimum fuss who attacks them."-Tez3 :lol: Golden!
-Many who claim to be "real men" never had good father figure role models and REALLY have no idea what the hell they're talking about when they go out picking fights.
-Etcetera.
Does that about sum it up?
So, any new thoughts on the topic?
Getting back to topic:
:rtfm: RTFM
It seems like the general consensus here is that:
-A really "real man" will do whatever is necessary to end the fight.
-A really "real man" is not so insecure with himself that he has to go around picking fights with smaller people.
-Some really "real men" "can walk down the street in mini skirts and drop anyone with minimum fuss who attacks them."-Tez3 :lol: Golden!
-Many who claim to be "real men" never had good father figure role models and REALLY have no idea what the hell they're talking about when they go out picking fights.
-Etcetera.
Does that about sum it up?
So, any new thoughts on the topic?
Last edited:
Well that begs the question: can you squeeze spinnach out of the can and eat it through a pipe?
Daniel
Jenny_in_Chico
Black Belt
Ahhh, the wisdom of Jayne. He was always my favorite character!
Jenny_in_Chico
Black Belt
That is an excellent definition of alpha male, especially the portions that I bolded. If I made a list of the most attractive qualities a male could possess, these would be at the top. There is a world of difference between masculine confidence and ridiculous posturing, and a discerning woman will always be able to discriminate between the two.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Jenny_in_Chico
Black Belt
Thats not true, if you don't train with full muscle motion you will not execute full muscle motion.
Sean
Omar B
Senior Master
So you are assuming a marital artist (regardless of style) would train with less than full range of motion? Do sprinters train for half speed too?
Not assuming; some do; some don't. And, I don't know I'm not a sprinter.
Sean
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I don't want to get back into this one, but I will comment that anyone not training in a full range of motion will have that problem, it's not really related to the muscle mass you have. Also, ANY type of training that you do can be counter productive if you do it incorrectly. I can't see any system of martial arts working well if the primary (flawed) strategy of the practitioner is to purposely block with their groin and face. By knocking weight training for what some people do incorrectly is following the same logic IMO.
One other point, regardless of how much muscle growth that occurs, the origin and insertion of the muscle is unchanged. There are tons of bodybuilders who wished they could change the length of (for example) their biceps an especially their calves. Increasing the lean muscle mass can give the illusion that their is less space, but the muscle bellies length is still the same regardless of the amount of training you do or how much muscle mass you have. There are rare cases of people like Sergio Oliva (3x Mr. Olympia back in the '60's) whose bicep was so laong that is did interefere with his range of motion and he could not fully curl his arm up. However, this was genetic and was not a result of his training or muscle mass. He was NEVER able to do this, including before he took up weight training.
Once again, this thread is about how non-martial artists will try to put down and limit martial artsits due to their own insecurities, but it has also revealed how some in the arts (whether it's the people posting or the people that they have gotten their flawed info from) have the same insecurities and biases. I myself believed many of those myths when I was young and was told to avoid free weights by Benny Urquidez (who was one of my heroes when I was a teen) because free weights would add "useless bulk" and "shorten your reach". I wanted to be a world kickboxing champion and whatever Benny said was like the gospel to me. I later actually researched these things and found out that I had been steered in the wrong direction , though I know at the time Benny meant well. What was funny was over a decade later, I read an article in IRON MAN magazine by Benny Urquidez on how weight training was one of the best tools available to a fighter/martial artist. At least Benny learned the lesson himself, though if he had learned it earlier, I probably would have began serios lifting 3-4 years earlier.
One other point, regardless of how much muscle growth that occurs, the origin and insertion of the muscle is unchanged. There are tons of bodybuilders who wished they could change the length of (for example) their biceps an especially their calves. Increasing the lean muscle mass can give the illusion that their is less space, but the muscle bellies length is still the same regardless of the amount of training you do or how much muscle mass you have. There are rare cases of people like Sergio Oliva (3x Mr. Olympia back in the '60's) whose bicep was so laong that is did interefere with his range of motion and he could not fully curl his arm up. However, this was genetic and was not a result of his training or muscle mass. He was NEVER able to do this, including before he took up weight training.
Once again, this thread is about how non-martial artists will try to put down and limit martial artsits due to their own insecurities, but it has also revealed how some in the arts (whether it's the people posting or the people that they have gotten their flawed info from) have the same insecurities and biases. I myself believed many of those myths when I was young and was told to avoid free weights by Benny Urquidez (who was one of my heroes when I was a teen) because free weights would add "useless bulk" and "shorten your reach". I wanted to be a world kickboxing champion and whatever Benny said was like the gospel to me. I later actually researched these things and found out that I had been steered in the wrong direction , though I know at the time Benny meant well. What was funny was over a decade later, I read an article in IRON MAN magazine by Benny Urquidez on how weight training was one of the best tools available to a fighter/martial artist. At least Benny learned the lesson himself, though if he had learned it earlier, I probably would have began serios lifting 3-4 years earlier.
Omar B
Senior Master
Well what you said it an absurd assumption reguarding muscle size and flexibility in relation to martial arts or any sport. I suggest you do some reading on the topic. Then couching your lack of understanding in the fact that you are "not a sprinter" is even more absurd, after all their aims in relation to range of motion and power are just about the same as ours.
Aren't you assuming all martial arts follow your way of thinking? And that all teachers are good enough to teach this concept?
Sean
Omar B
Senior Master
If you are learning from a teacher that does not have you make use of the full range of motion of your limbs you should leave. In fact, I don't think he would get further than white belt himself.
It's not an assumption, a teacher not knowing simple things about anatomy or movement probably has never himself taken a martial arts class ... or would end up with joint and muscle rending injuries.
It's not an assumption, a teacher not knowing simple things about anatomy or movement probably has never himself taken a martial arts class ... or would end up with joint and muscle rending injuries.
Steve Grody
White Belt
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2009
- Messages
- 13
- Reaction score
- 1
As some others have stated, it may be a good idea when amongst a group of dude/knuckleheads, to not say anything about knowing anything martial. The whole "fight like a real man" idea seems to me to be about consensual fights and the unstated rules that go with that. If someone's primary concern is actual defense against unwanted physical threats from some dude/knucklehead, then it's back to "whatever I have do to walk away." I tell my students in their late teens to 30s in particular that they should be discrete as to who the tell they are training, because too many dimbulbs believe that anyone doing martial training think they have magically become untouchable (which of course we don't), and therefore should be able to defend against surprise attacks from their friends. Anyone that has "friends" like these should explain that a) anyone can be suckerpunched, b) that to just defend may be more difficult than just stop-hitting the crap out of someone, and finally and very importantly c) that such jackass attacks may cause you to hold back in a future scenario when you shouldn't but do because you think you may be being grabbed by a friend.
stevegrody.com
stevegrody.com
