Hoko no kamae, legalities, and other considerations

[Kreth]

A general suggestion: If you'd like to quote several people and reply to them, you can do so by manually typing in the (QUOTE=username) and (/QUOTE) tags (replace the parantheses with square brackets), and cutting & pasting the text you want to reply to. That way, you can condense all of your replies into one post.

Jeff

 

[r erman]

I think Aric's point shouldn't be so easily ignored. It doesn't matter what we are really discussing, if it can be misconstrued as discussing getting away with excessive force, then it will be misconstrued...

 

[Don Roley]

I showed this thread to someone who used to work in the District Attorny office prosecuting cases. There seems to be no problems with what has been said so far. As long as we are talking about how to prepare ourselves for an attack from another person and not preparing to sucker punch them there should be no more problem than in taking a martial arts class.

In fact, the thread about knife fighting caused more concern. As it was explained to me, if you are trying to de-escalate a situation in a bar like we are talking about, then as long as no one gets crippled or dead we are not dealing with a lot of searching into our pasts. The DA will most likely go with what the officer on the scene says and he will be infulenced by what the witnesses says. Their typical MO is to look at things as "drunken moron A" and "Drunken moron B" rather than "attacker" and "victim." So if you are trying to get out of a fight, you better make everyone around you aware that you are doing that. Four letter words do not belong in the de-escalation process.

So, if you can use hoko to get the guy to calm down and let you get away, great. If he starts a physical attack, you might be better able to defend yourself and yet still not be taken away by the police at the end of the night. And as long as you keep your nose fairly clean that should be the end of it.

Of course, with a knife everything gets jumped up a heck of a lot. My source was concerned with the idea of people talking about picking a knife to carry as a weapon. Pull out that knife and you enter a field of lethal force. People may get seriously hurt or killed. Backgraounds will be checked and the fact that you were considering carrying a knife to use as a weapon instead of as just a handy tool and it could be used against you.

Legal matters are really complicated.

 

[The Tengu]

I'm glad I joined this forum, as I have been experimenting with hoko no kamae a lot recently for many of the same reasons brought up in this thread.

Earlier this year I had the opportunity to work with some of SouthNarc's ECQC system during a seminar he held, and at the same time got to experience some of what the IPDTA endorses during a seminar Martin Cooper taught (which utilizes a slightly lowered hoko no kamae as its "default" position). Experiencing these two systems got the gears working in my brain...

Anyhow, back to the thread. Mr. Keith mentioned that feigning weakness is a "clever strategy of gimpishness". To me, it is not so much a trick as it is a subtle way to physically establish your personal space with a functional stance.

The hoko no kamae gimp stance is a part of the transition between verbal negotiations to physical defense that has a protective application while appearing non-confrontational. I believe that it should appear non-confrontational, because you don't want to fight!

Psychologically, you are being passive and your hands are not in a threatening position such as near your waistline; you are the victim. Mechanically, the gimp stance gives us a symmetrical defense against lateral attacks to the head as well as provides the attacker with a linear opening. I'd consider this a good thing, as Bujinkan taijutsu schools seem to practice a whole lot of linear defenses.

This all sounds a lot like kyojitsu tenkan ho concepts to me.

Of course, this transition between verbal negotiations to physical defense is predicated upon the defender's level of environmental awareness. If the defender is caught unaware, a good bit of their defense has already been compromised.

 

[Cryozombie]

Greg,

On behalf of the staff here at martial talk, Welcome aboard!

I hope you enjoy your time here.

 

[Gina]

In response to Don Roley's point about the Hoko No Kamae being used as a defensive surrendering posture with the hands out in front as if to say to an attacker 'I Dont want any trouble' is actually one of the first things taught in To-Shin Do. It was also one of the first things taught to me when I was training as a police officer together with some verbal commands like 'Stay Back'. Using a very visual defensive posture is so important in the UK because CCTV is everywhere, and CCTV is often used in court. It really is a big No No to use a classical Ninjutsu posture in public today except in the most extreme of circumstances. Having a verbal dialogue that says something like 'Stay Back' is also really helpful, just make sure you say it loudly for three reasons.

1/ Audible suppresion. In a fight situation the first sense to go is the hearing. You may be telling an attacker you don't want to fight, but he may not hear you.
2/ It gives your witnesses in the court that will say 'I heard him (you) say 'Stay back, I don't want to fight'.
3/ It gives out a warning and people may come to your aid.

In To-Shin Do too, and I know that someone is going to critisice me for promoting the Stephen K Hayes Martial Arts, but even our Ichimonji, called Bobi No kamae has the palms out in a defensive posture, as opposed to the classic posture. I guess thats what I like about To-Shin Do after being a police officer, I realise that these classical postures just make it look like you are the trouble maker, or even worse, the Judge realises your a martial artists and as such could have easily controlled your attacker without hurting him, or if he has a bad opinion of martial arts, that you are the trouble maker.

Reading these posts its interesting that some of you are developing a strategy that we are using in what we do.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

 

[rutherford]

Gary,

What if I told you that kamae is a principle thing more than a technique thing?

Here, try this article. http://www.bujinkan-france.net/bjk/article.php3?id_article=133

 

[Don Roley]

I guess thats what I like about To-Shin Do after being a police officer, I realise that these classical postures just make it look like you are the trouble maker,

You are obviously being trained differently from how things are done here in Japan. You obviously seem to have gotten the wrong impression for the purpose of kamae and their uses. My teacher makes a lot of fun of the idea of dropping into a stance before a fight. He and I have a little routine we do with visitors to push the point. Instead, the kamae are what happens in the fight. When blows are coming down, you shift from stance to stance keeping your guard and balance up.

Hoko no kamae is also a stance that is used as a weight transition when blows are being thrown. But in this case, it can also be used as a means of letting everyone around you know that you do not want to fight. Just taking it may get the other guy to suspend his attack and turn to just screaming at you. I will take being screamed at over coming to blows if I have a choice.

 

[rutherford]

Don, would go for a different feeling when using Hoko in this manner? The words you mention, especially "back off" don't seem to emphasize what I associate with this kamae.

 

[Don Roley]

Don, would go for a different feeling when using Hoko in this manner? The words you mention, especially "back off" don't seem to emphasize what I associate with this kamae.

I don't think any feeling is neccesarily found in any kamae. That seems to be a leftover from the early stuff by SKH. In Japan, you use the tools you have and don't try to make a stance fit any type of feeling.

Of course, we are still trying to overcome all the mistaken impressions and such that we have left over from SKH's early attempts to introduce the art to the west with his limited knowledge. Suffice to say that I have never been told that you have to have a certain feeling for hoko or any other kamae in the classes I have been to in Japan.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

a

You are obviously being trained differently from how things are done here in Japan. You obviously seem to have gotten the wrong impression for the purpose of kamae and their uses. My teacher makes a lot of fun of the idea of dropping into a stance before a fight. He and I have a little routine we do with visitors to push the point. Instead, the kamae are what happens in the fight.

Actually, at the 2000 Taikai in Holland Hatsumi stated that the kamae goes after the fight. :ultracool

 

[rutherford]

Hai. Thanks, Don. Too much reading on the internet and not enough training. *sigh*

 

[Gina]

Oh dear here we go again, any chance at a SKH dig. But wait a minute is'nt this a copy of the Ten Chi Jin Scroll by one of the Shi Ten O I have with pictures of kamae at the beginning. Yes Don you and I know that kamae are a lot more subtle when one has trained long enough. But I thought that this post was about how people used Hoko No kamae, and people were saying that one can take up a type of Hoko No kamae before a fight is about to begin, so as to show that we do not wish to fight. It would after all be a bit silly not to do anthing. Maybe stand in Shizen No kamae, or conversly move around adopting these forever changing postures. But wait doesn't this look like we want to fight. I want to show that I don't want to fight due to legal reasons. Hence why I adopt something resembling Hoko No Kame.

Yes I aprreciate from your elevated position that you know that Hoko No kamae is so much more, but if you think that warriors in the past did not adopt Hoko No kamae prior to a fight then you would be wrong.

Kamae can be adopted prior to a fight, during a fight and after a fight, in body i.e physical manifestation and in the mind and spirit as well.

In fact in Hatsumi Sensei book way of the ninja he talks about three kamae. kamae of the body, Kamae of battle formations, and kamae of defensive fortifications. Or maybe we believe that actually there are no kamae of battle formations, i.e that troops did not take up positions (Kamae) on the battle field, just like you suppose they don't do in taijutsu.

Gary Arthur

 

[Kreth]

Oh dear here we go again, any chance at a SKH dig.

It may be this line from your previous post, which implies that the rest of the Bujinkan is just getting around to learning what TSD has been doing all along:

Reading these posts its interesting that some of you are developing a strategy that we are using in what we do.

This seems to be a common theme in your posts, that TSD is somehow the vanguard of Bujinkan training. Some of us disagree.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In fact in Hatsumi Sensei book way of the ninja he talks about three kamae. kamae of the body, Kamae of battle formations, and kamae of defensive fortifications. Or maybe we believe that actually there are no kamae of battle formations, i.e that troops did not take up positions (Kamae) on the battle field, just like you suppose they don't do in taijutsu.

It has been said that on the battlefield there are only three kamae - low, middle and high.

 

[Don Roley]

Yes I aprreciate from your elevated position that you know that Hoko No kamae is so much more, but if you think that warriors in the past did not adopt Hoko No kamae prior to a fight then you would be wrong.

Go back and read over the posts please. I took issue with the fact that you had troubles with the idea that kamae could look like you were trying to cause trouble. I pointed out that the kamae are supposed to be used inside a fight and not dropped into prior to it as a general rule. Hoko no kamae can be used prior to a fight like we are discussing, but can you imagine hopping up to someone in hicho? But if you kick, until your foot gets back on the ground you are effectively in hicho.

In short, I took issue with the limited view you have on kamae and was not trying to limit myself to using hoko or any other kamae exclusivly prior to or during blows being thrown.

 

[Gina]

Don

If it came over that I have a limited view on kamae this is only because you read into it what you will. You and I both know that Kamae are integral to the taijutsu and not just a method of taking up some posture prior to the conflict. However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts. Later the student will learn that actually the kamae are more subtle, but try explaining how kamae really work to a beginner and you confuse them.
Interestingly there is not a lot made of the kamae in the To-Shin Do curriculum, and the kamae like Jumonji, Kosei etc are hardly, if ever mentioned in the DVD series. Maybe its because we want to teach kamae in To-Shin Do at a more elevated level. But we do realise that beginners will need some kind of posture to start from, hence we have this open handed ichimonji which we call bobi no kamae and a type of Hoko no kamae with the hands open at chest level.

 

[saru1968]

........................Maybe its because we want to teach kamae in To-Shin Do at a more elevated level.

and in the Bujinkan we don't ?

 

[Don Roley]

However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts.

Or perhaps it would be best to try to teach begginers the correct way of looking at the matter and try to keep things as they are taught in Japan.

I would not try changing something like kamae unless I was sure that I knew them and the principles behind them so well that I was sure that I carried the same principles over to the new forms. I do not think that anyone like Hayes, yourself or me has that level of knowledge yet. There is just too much that may seem to be unimportant that can be thrown out in the wash.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Don
However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts. Later the student will learn that actually the kamae are more subtle, but try explaining how kamae really work to a beginner and you confuse them.

Yeah, we wouldn't want people to get confused in the beginning, would we...?

But we do realise that beginners will need some kind of posture to start from, hence we have this open handed ichimonji which we call bobi no kamae and a type of Hoko no kamae with the hands open at chest level.

Uhm, bobi no kamae is done with clenched fists.

Would you mind letting us in on what you understand of the concept tate ni suru?