Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Mr. President, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I only have a moment to comment, but wanted to do so on Daniel's statement. I agree 100% in regards to the 'graduation' mentality because this promotes the viewpoint that the students has 'arrived' or 'finished' the training when in reality they (should) be ready to move beyond the basics into more advanced/in-depth concepts. I think the common complaint is student retention in many arts, TKD being amoung them. But when the focus is so strongly on belts/rank and the BB is seen as something it clearly shouldn't be...it is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. Rank is stressed and pushed and when they get the big, bad BB...in their view that is it and time to move on to something else.
     
  2. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    To suggest my daughter is not worthy of a first gup because she doesnt recognise olympic sparring is both ridiculous and offensive. She worked her back side off to get where she is and just because she doesn't recognise a form of tkd she doesnt even do is no reason to have her rank questioned.
     
  3. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Boonhae, for every move in every form you know. Tell them to us.
    Also for the Palgwe equivalents, not just Hyeung and Taegeuk. Not having learnt Palgwe forms is not an excuse. Not having thought about it is not an excuse.
    If you cannot do this, you do not deserve to be a 2nd kup, because you arent aware of different forms and applications at your level that are done by different systems.
    Its easy to access information. You should have no trouble. In fact, you should have already done it by now, being a 2nd kup.

    Optionally, display more reasonable thinking, and ill make more reasonable comments :)
     
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  4. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    :roflmao:
     
  5. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    The art is doing well and the sport is doing well...

    I have been ripped on this board more than once....it is my 4th year on this BBS...and my kids are more involved than ever...they teach amd coach and compete at a elite level...they have made National teams in both TKD and Karate....they have traveled all over the world doing Tkd(Spain, Holland, Canada and Mexico). My daughter will fight in Germany this year with AAU National Team. She is the Womens Team Captain.

    My son will fight in Spain if he makes the Karate JR National team again!

    Sport martials Arts Karate/Tkd hive a great reputation with me and the people I speak with...the only time I hear disparaging remarks are on the Internet.

    It has been a great experience for my family...
     
  6. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I charge for testing fees for kup ranks. In the association we are in, students must go to the national dan gradings for poom/dan grades so they pay that fee.

    We charge minimal fees for training (compared to other clubs in our region, our country and often compared to other common places around the world) and only a really small fee for testing, but basically it helps keep the club "in the black" so that we can keep it running.

    As Jaeimseu said above, if students aren't ready, they don't test. In all my years of Taekwondo I've only ever known one person fail a test (because they misunderstood that everyone that turns up to tests pass, they thought it was a foregone conclusion and wanted to prove that to their friends - they learnt!). However, I've known LOTS of people that didn't test at a testing session even though they were time eligible because they weren't ready. Those that are ready (and are therefore told so beforehand), come down, give their best and pass.
     
  7. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    While I agree Metal's comment about not being worth their rank was harsh/unnecessary, your comment above is ludicrous.

    I personally agree that students should be aware of the wider Taekwondo community and history as they approach black belt. One day they are going to be instructors and how can they talk to their students about other systems, other associations and history if they don't know anything about them. I don't think they should necessarily be able to demonstrate/teach areas of other systems. I wouldn't necessarily phrase it in the inflammatory way Metal did though ;-)

    Boonhae for example are commonly not taught in Kukki-Taekwondo dojang. The Kukkiwon Textbook makes nary a mention of them. The Kukkiwon poomsae DVDs show a couple of examples for each pattern, but this seems to be more an "out of interest" thing than something actively taught as quite often these applications require slight technical adjustments to actually work.

    So, saying that a 2nd Kup KKW should be able to demonstrate boonhae (which isn't generally taught in KKW Taekwondo) for patterns they don't is like saying that Ralph's daughter should not only be aware of WTF sparring, but should be able to demonstrate the intricacies of it based on her knowledge of her system.

    We've had people crossover from ITF Taekwon-do to us over the years (and recently) and they are all easily taken apart under our rules until they learn the technique adjustments and strategy changes, then they become competitive. This is no surprise - it's not the same system. I liken it to badminton vs tennis, we use similar looking techniques, but the way we apply them and the strategies used are completely different.

    So your analogy doesn't quite fit.
     
  8. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    I would argue that tkd styles are just so different and abundant that it really isnt necessary to know everything about each flavour of tkd. We even have a club up the road calling themselves "freestyle tkd" and what they do looks absolutely nothing like any tkd I've seen. I would actually say shotokan looks significantly more like what I do than kkw tkd. I cant see any reason why my daughter should be required to know anything about kkw tkd which has nothing to do with what she studies.
     
  9. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Because it shows a wider world view of the art. Like it or not, globally the majority of Taekwondo is Kukkiwon/WTF. I think it's a responsibility of instructors to ensure their students are prepared with a background in to the art and an overview of what is happening with Taekwondo in the world. I agree, I wouldn't worry about what any particular club does, but to show a complete lack of knowledge about the majority of practitioners using the same martial art name as you leaves the student unprepared to enter ranks where, in a lot of countries, they could open their own club and teach students of their own.

    You're seeing it from the point of view as "she studies ABC Taekwon-do, she should only need to know that", I'm seeing it as "she's almost high enough to TEACH ABC Taekwon-do, she should at least be aware of DEF Taekwondo as her potential students will ask her about it". Different view point.

    All too many people look only to their own dojang as being the gospel rather than wanting to know what the rest of the world is doing and how you fit in as a part of that family.
     
  10. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    This would be a very interesting topic for a new thread. You would laugh if you knew how little my seventh dan instructor knows about kkw tkd. He has a good knowledge of boxing, shotokan, kumdo, jujutsu and hapkido yet I explained to him a couple of years ago what the kkw was and he had literally never heard of it. He is computer illiterate though :)
     
  11. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    It was meant to be.

    Sure - But what if his daughter just wants to learn Taekwondo? If she wants to become an instructor, when shes learning how to be an instructor, she can pick up all the other pieces.

    So, if you take a white belt who asks a 1st kup about KKW Standard TKD, and that practitioner doesnt know anything about it, they should be demoted?

    Is learning about the WTF a part of non-KKW/WTF training regiments?
    Is Boonhae a part of the KKW regimen?
    When you learn Goju Ryu Karate, do they make you aware of all the other kinds of Karate out there as a part of your training? Replace Goju Ryu with any other way shape or form of Karate. Enough to identify them on sight? Isnt it all the same 'community'?

    One might say, its more of an 'out of interest' thing, than something actively taught. ;)

    Aye - But the logic is similar. Im curious to know how many folks had to look up what Boonhae meant, or who didnt bother. The logic is that you should know about it even though it is not a part of what you are doing.

    Yep. But how many Tennis Players know more about Badminton than the fact that it exists?
    I, for example, used to play tennis but honestly dont even know what badminton is. It was never a thing at school, and ive only heard it mentioned on tv. Does that mean i was never deserved to be called a tennis player? (I know thats different, but you made the comparison. :) )

    When i added the part about Palgwe, i added that out of curiosity. How many people dont know about Palgwe, or know about it but have never seen them? I mean, if i took some TKD folks from this site at random, and without telling them what it was showed them Palgwe, assuming they didnt see the TKD uniforms, how many of them would go "Oh, thats Palgwe", and how many wouldnt know what it is? Palgwe are a part of TKD, just as much as the KKW and WTF as the ITF is to the WTF and KKW. If Ralphs daughter doesnt deserve to be a 1st kup because she cant identify olympic TKD, does that mean any of us who cant identify Palgwe dont deserve our ranks either? Even if that isnt what were learning or doing, just because there are other TKD places where that IS what theyre learning and doing?
    Im open to discussing it, but i think my analogy fit the discussion swell.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  12. Mauthos

    Mauthos 2nd Black Belt

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    I am glad that Cyriacus confirmed it as I was beginning to think I was the only one that understood that his comment was meant to be absurd, to me it was quite obvious he wasn't serious with the statement, pretty much confirmed by:

     
  13. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Then you hit the mark, my man! ;-)

    But I would argue that preparing someone for black belt is preparing them to be an instructor. Otherwise you are giving someone a black belt rank but not the ability to teach that comes with that.

    I don't think their instructor should have let them get there without at least a passing nod to who they are and how they differ.

    It depends what you mean by "learning about" in the first question. I would say that knowing about it and how it differs is very useful and should be taught.

    Boonhae isn't part of learning at most kukkiwon schools. The Kukkiwon sets a base curriculum and if you want to add other stuff in, then go for it. So I wouldn't say that Boonhae is 0% taught in KKW schools, but it's certainly minor.

    I disagree with this. There are two major forms of Taekwondo that form >95% of all Taekwondo. Knowing about two styles isn't too much to ask (on either side of the fence). There are at least 15 different major styles of Karate. To be honest thought, I would expect near black belts in Karate to be familiar with the most popular styles and be able to recognise them based on their characteristic movements - but then again I'm not a Karate instructor.

    And I agree. I know what boonhae means and I'd be happy to recognise it. I don't necessarily think that my students would know the term nor know other people actively practice it. But they would recognise ITF sine-wave and ITF-style sparring.

    Wow, I'm SHOCKED! I guess it's a regional thing, but in the UK I would argue that Badminton is probably more popular than tennis. Most Leisure Centres have many Badminton courts but rarely more than one tennis court if that. For example, at our local leisure centre there are 8 Badminton courts, with another hall having 8 roll out mats for playing Badminton on if they need them but no tennis courts.

    So maybe my analogy only works well for UKers :)

    I agree and I wouldn't recognise them as Palgwae, but I would identify the practitioner as Taekwondo and likely identify them as ITF/Kukkiwon based on their movement style. I wouldn't necessarily expect an ITFer to recognise the specific techniques a WTF-player is using, but I would expect them to know it's WTF Taekwondo.

    Again, just to be clear, I'm not saying that students should recognise the specifics of other styles or appreciate the detail or be able to teach them and I'm not saying they aren't worth their grade if they can't (I think it's the teacher's responsibility to teach and the student's to learn), but they should be able to pick the other style out of a line-up ;-)
     
  14. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Do i get a prize...?

    So, if you want to get a black belt, you have to learn how to be an instructor? What if you dont want to be an instructor?

    Ill come back to that.

    I agree with all that - But it is as much a part of TKD as the WTF is to an ITF school, learning and training wise.

    Well, i cant really confirm or deny that. If a Karate persons reading this, confirm or deny!
    But alas, how does it make it any different that theres less total systems of TKD? Id like to know if you think it would be unacceptable for a Shotokan student to be unable to identify a Kenpo student, for example, just by seeing a sparring match.

    Thats good - But that reflects your desire to teach that side of things to them.

    Ill take you on your word :)

    Aha - So, if a Shotokan Karateka saw a Kyokushin Karateka doing Kata, should they be able to identify the form based on the movements found in Kata? Or is this just an idea thats unique to TKD, that only in TKD do you need to be able to identify things on sight simply because its easy to do so?

    Well, how would Ralphs daughter identify Olympic TKD? By the uniforms, gear, and ruleset. The same could be said of the ITF. But like i asked above - Is this a rule limited only to TKD where its easier to identify systems simply because its easy? Does the rule not apply to 15+ styles of Karate just because its more difficult? Is the rule different just because its TKD, that you need to be able to identify other systems of TKD on sight?
    Now, by the same guideline, if a WTF practitioner had never seen ITF forms before, then they saw an ITF practitioner doing forms without sinewave, would they be able to identify the system without basing it on the uniform being worn? How is that much different from identifying whos system is doing some sparring? Hence the Karate references :)

    So, you cant identify Palgwe on sight, which is fine. Because its not what youre learning, in your system. But your system should teach how to identify sparring systems on sight? I pose that its not much different from identifying forms on sight. What if they were a GTF practitioner? Or a part of an independent organisation? Or a Karate school with similar movement? How does it benefit your capability to learn and practition TKD?
     
  15. Metal

    Metal Green Belt

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    I apologize if my comment was too harsh. Yet it sometimes takes harsh comments to stimulate a discussion. ;-)


    When I said Ralph's daughter shouldn't be a 1st kup it was not meant to slate her technique or the effort that she put into getting there and it was not meant as a personal insult. Since I don't know her or her school I can't judge that anyway. She passed the grading and fullfilled whatever was required to pass the test, yet I criticize her instructor and her dad (who's apparently a Taekwondo practicioner) since they didn't inform her about the wider picture of Taekwondo.

    Does she need to know the details about WTF competitions? No, but she should be aware of its existence.

    While not every blackbelt will become an instructor, kup grades still look up to them and may address questions.


    Oh, and while in Korea probably hardly anybody underneath the age of 50 knows and cares about the Chan Hon Hyongs and it's close to 100% Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo, that doesn't mean that everywhere else in the world people should lose track of each other's style.
     
  16. Gorilla

    Gorilla Master of Arts

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    I don't think that Ralph's daughter not knowing anything about Olympic Tkd is a reflection on her or sport Tkd.

    It might say that Ralph's school is a little isolated. Maybe?
     
  17. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I would agree with this 100%.

    Olympic TKD's reputation isn't ruined, or even damaged, because some schools choose to ignore it.
    And students in those schools are no less worthy of whatever grades they hold just because they are unaware of a competitive sport that they don't practice.
     
  18. ETinCYQX

    ETinCYQX Master Black Belt

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    The question is, why is the bigger picture relevant to a black belt? Why should Ralph's daughter know anything about Olympic Taekwondo if she doesn't train it?

    I couldn't tell the difference between an ITF match and a Karate or whatever match, and I sure don't think I need to.
     
  19. ETinCYQX

    ETinCYQX Master Black Belt

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    few counterpoints in bold.
     
  20. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I would ask the same question.

    Most students that I have encountered view the black belt in terms of their personal achievement in the art they practice. Very few students of the martial arts (relative to the number of people who train in them at any level, from kids to senior citizens) have aspirations to be instructors or coaches. I don't know the percentage of competitors, but most students that I have met personally do not compete.

    Knowing the bigger picture is nice, but it isn't why they train. And most of us have enough to keep track of in our lives that keeping track of other MA styles/orgs is simply not on the menu.123
     

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