Hapkido Q&A's

[iron_ox]

Hello Jeremy,

Sorry if you felt judged, but many of the issues you don't care about in my opinion are central to the study of any martial art. Bruce and I may have conflicting opinions about who founded the art of Hapkido - but it keeps discussion and awareness at the forefront (a discussion you "judged" to be going nowhere...) of the public. I do care if some schmuck opens a "Hapkido" school and doesn't have a clue what they are doing - I've been lucky enough to shut a few down in the last 25 years. I do care about bogus organizations that hand out phony rank and try to dictate policy - you missed the last year of turmoil for many here...

Of course Hapkido is in the training, training is the constant, but we can't fully discuss training in writing - so we often discuss "political" issues. How do we bear witness to a BS artist trying to rip off the public? Politics. Have we seen some in the last year, yep, and some of the folks on this board helped to bring some of these issues to light.

I think that these types of discussion safeguard the group that "just wants to train" and thinks they do so in a vacuum. The other thngs you mention are very positive, philosophy etc, but if you "don't care" about something so much around people that do, best to sit listen and see if they are saying anything you might care about oneday. It is great you want to open a dojang, but what if the guy in the space next door does the same thing, and you know he is just a "Joe Schmo" with a first Dan and no talent - you will have to have better credentials, as well as better technique - because if he is flashier than you, you might be training alone...

I can say without a doubt that most of the guys here, even in heated exchanges (like between Bruce and myself) are done with the greatest respect - we have a single goal in mind, to grow. Maybe I do have my mind set on certain issues, so what, as long as I am willing to talk them out, I may learn as well. I have learned from both Stuart and Bruce, as examples, in areas that I might not have explored except to listen to what they had to say - even if they had to pin me against the cyberspace wall...

Again, Jeremy, sorry if you felt judged, didn't set out to hurt feelings...

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Wow! Much has been going on since I have been away!

Sorry it has taken so long but here are the 10 original Hapkido kicks as taught by Founder Choi, Yong Sool:

* Kicking the lower ankle. - Ha dan pal chagi
* Kicking the groin 1. - Nang shim chagi
* Kicking the groin 2. - Nang shim chagi
* Kicking the knee joint with the side foot knife - Yop chagi
* Kicking the knee joint with the front foot knife. - Cutting kick
* Kicking the femoral part downward. - Inside to outside heel kick
* Winding the spine and kicking. - Heel to back of leg or spine
* Spinning and kicking the leg joint. - Spin back or side kick to knee
* Kicking the chin. - Up chagi
* Kicking backward with the rear foot. - Middle knuckle, back side kick

The interesting thing about these kicks is that they are no nonsense fighting kicks unlike many of the flashy kicks seen in some styles of Hapkido.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

" Now, I am certainly of the belief that Choi spent 30+ years in Japan and came back with a huge martial repetoire, this is without question. He never studied in Korea, SO what he taught was Japanese in its origin. Maybe you ought to except the fact that what you have been taught is Japanese, not ancient Korean, not mystical Chinese. Now is it DRAJJ, no, not the version you see today. I accept Choi's story, which means he was with Takeda longer than anyone - hence it is going to be different given the teaching style and lifestyle of Takeda....."

First off, I don't have a problem with Choi having learned a Japanese tradition because I view it only as one more influence ON Korean MA and not necessarily a KMA in and of itself. Where I get confused is when people want to take Chois' material and make it into a Korean tradition, or at least not a Japanese tradition or somehow separate from both.

"Who says Choi's tradition is no longer available? Sorry, wrong again. Grandmaster Lim carries on the Choi tradition. I mean, you just spent 12 days with Kim, Yun Sang who also claims to teach the Choi tradition - is he also not telling the truth? How do you figure that Choi's tradition is not documented - maybe in your training experience, not mine."

Thats not accurate. The single consistent point every single student of Choi has put forward is that THEY TEACH WHAT CHOI TAUGHT THEM and EVERY SINGLE TRADITION IS DIFFERENT. We simply do not know what Choi taught except that he seems to have taught different things to different people at different times. Your report is that Lim told you that he learned higher techniques which is where his curriculum begins. Myung and Ji apparently learned more fundamental material and thats where THEIR teaching begins. They did not continue into the higher material and Lim does not go into the lower material. So unless someone learns BOTH levels they cannot say that they are learning all of Chois tradition and even THEN we do not know if one has the entire corpus of Chois tradition. Even you said, "Even the modern DRAJJ admit they do not know all of Takeda's material - I suspect Choi learned more than current DRAJJ know today." You "suspect" but you don't really know and no one evwer will now that he is dead.

"You are the ONLY person that is concerned with making Hapkido more Korean than it is - more than the Koreans do I feel. You seek to link martial traditions from China and Korea but can document no persons or arts that create a link. You want to link Chin Na somehow, well its only a little older than Hapkido, never spread to Korea in any meaningful way, and what I have seen of it is only a crude version of what I have been taught in Hapkido....."

Wrong again. All I want to do is make sure that Hapkido is kept appropriately framed in the larger context of Korean martial traditions. Hapkido is not the sum of all traditions and is, in and of itself not a Korean tradition. It is a strong influence ON Korean traditions and needs to be recognized, but so do all of the other influences and historical pieces. You don't want to look at other pieces of Korean martial tradition because there is no hard-and-fast place for you to identify for yourself. Like it or not this is as it should be as Korean martial tradition is not about you or Todd or Me or Choi. Its about traditions that need to be studied and polished and reflected on. Some of that involves mat work and some of it involves 500 y/o books.

"Everyone you have EVER trained with traces back to Choi - no one else. Now if I try to get as close to the source as possible through the longest training students of Choi to ensure that I am teaching the tradition I claim where is the harm there - just giving folks value for money. You might be able to bluster your way past many with long posts and emotional calls for "train in DRAJJ", but I've seen this response for years - it comes from the people who unfortunately are really insecure with their training and ability, have been taken advantage of financially and lied to about the lineage of their art and their instructors. To this, I can only be sad and hope they find a way that satisfies them....."

I think you are reaching now. You can't know everyone I have trained with nor can you know the amount of study I have done regarding Korean martial science or Korean culture. The harm in trumpeting Choi with such emotion is that all it does is make such people large fish in small ponds. The Korean traditions are a huge pond in which any of us are small fish. In addition I don't think that you see that taking the position that you have makes you very similar to Michael who champions Ji, or Carsten who champions Lee, or Mike who supports Pelligrini. Lim just happens to be YOUR favorite, but the larger question of Korean traditions is being ignored.

".....Bruce, all I have ever said is simple: Dojunim Choi taught an art that became known BY HIM as Hapkido (with all deference to Ji's involvement with the name). He learned this art in Japan, he did no training in Korea. He taught what he learned to his students, some stayed longer (and learned more than others). Lots of offshoots started, with many names and a variety of additions. Good for them. I have always been interested in the original teachings - which the founders of the offshoots got. That is what I know I am teaching now. I don't care what "country of origin" or "country of benefit" Hapkido comes from. Choi was Korean, taught in Korea, mostly to Koreans, hence, Hapkido, Korean art of Self-defense......"

Thats fine, as long as you are aware that you are teaching a non-Korean tradition within the context of Korean culture and thats what you choose to do. For my part, the Hapkido arts have become much larger than Chois' original material including a spectrum of kicking and weapons that Choi may not have envisioned originally. I respect his memory for his many kindnesses to my teachers, and in turn I respect my teachers for their many kindnesses to me. The study of Hapkido, however, is much broader than the discrete piece you have carved out for yourself. Scarey, but true.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

".....Very well said Jeremy.....knowing is in the practice..."

I have heard this position presented by you a few times and I think that you may be misrepresenting an important piece here.

Yes, its true that a large part of Hapkido arts is experiential. An even LARGER part is research and investigation. You may have overlooked that when someone gives you information the stated part may well be "practice this and practice often." The un-stated part is "use this as a springboard for finding a deeper understanding". Kwang Sik Myung pressed this point for me and the kwan to which I belong has it as one of the Four Pillars of its mission. For me that means taking 12,000 mile trips to Korea or spending hours in the library or many posts on nets like this.

Now if you are not interested in doing the sort of work I do, thats fine. Nobody says you have to. All I am saying is that I think you present a needlessly superficial approach as the single best manner of Hapkido practice and I don't think that is accurate, I also don't think that the Hapkido community is well-served by it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I think this thread has delved into the human "who's who" history of hapkido pretty well, with many individual viewpoints expressed.

Is there a way we can move on to the philisophy of the art? The core tenants and theories of combat and personal growth that make hapkido different from other arts?

I am thinking specifically of the following subjects:

1. The water theory

2. The ki theory-how to develop and use ki in your techniques

3. The circle theory

4. Warrior honor and how it relates to hapkido specifically.


I'd love to hear other's thoughts on these topics.

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Bruce, again, simply, where is the connection between what was taught by Choi (or Ji) and ANY previous "Korean" martial tradition. I don't understand how you can equate any type of validity to traditions that are only written in books - if their are no living adherants to a tradition, then that tradition died - and probably for a good cause...

On the subject of propriety, although I have never said I wanted that propriety, I will reflect on that need. Searching the web yesterday, I stumbled quite by accident on a "hapkido" site. The "dojoonim" wears a belt with four dan stripes, and by his own bio has little or no discernable Hapkido (Choi, Ji, or otherwise) in his background. He calims "dojoo" rank in his own "hapkido" style. Yet, this year, he hosted a seminar with a Hapkido practioner from South-East Asia (KHF related), who promply gave him rank after said seminar. I am willing to bet that the KHF or the World Kido will be the next stop for this guy and watch as he becomes a "recognized" founder of style.

When Hapkido is turned into a "generic" term for any KMA with a throw in it(or even not a KMA), we invite the frauds and the public is duped. So, discussions like this may not solve the issue of propriety, or who is more correct in history, but they might serve as a wake up call for an average guy looking to examine what Hapkido is and is not.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

You are not going to see the connection because quite simply you don't WANT to see the connection. Here are some connections you don't want to see.

As a Korean art, Hapkido is bound by the O-Gae which was reported originated in the 6th century.

As a Korean art, Hapkido is subsumed under Korean martial tradition which includes the Chinese influences of the Ming dynasty as reflected through General Qi Ji-huangs manual and later through the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Ji. And by the way these traditions are only found in books for people who only want them to stay in books. There are plenty of people who train in these traditions both in Korea and in China. It only serves your particular argument to consider these things dead. That way you are not required to know anything about them or how they relate to what you do.

As a Korean art, Hapkido is as valid in the use of weapons as well as without the use of weapons.

As a Korean art Hapkido is on a par with Chin Na, Ssierum, archery and a host of other practices. You can't demonstrate a clear clean intersect between Choi and Japan but you want me to demonstrate a clear clean intersect between China and Korea. I have, and mine is documented. All you have are oral traditions and the suggestion of similarity. Why the double standard?

The way you would have it, Hapkido would be "just Korean enough" to absolve you from being beholden to Japanese authority descending from Takeda, but not so Korean that you would be responsible for its place in the hierarchy of Korean material. You don't get it both ways. Either accept that you are a Korean art and the responsibilities that go with it, or accept that you are a Japanese art and go study in Japan as Lim did. I suggest you quit deluding yourself that there is some sort of authentic "middle-ground" that exists without benefit of documents and solely on the basis of the intentions of somebodys' marketing scheme. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

".......I am thinking specifically of the following subjects:

1. The water theory

2. The ki theory-how to develop and use ki in your techniques

3. The circle theory

4. Warrior honor and how it relates to hapkido specifically......"

Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido identifies that everything we do whether with a weapon or without a weapon is bound by the Three Principles.

1.) The Water Principle: A practitioner learns to deal with what is presented to him rather than trying to make a particular thing happen.

2.) Point and Circle Principle: A practitioner learns the everything is a cycle and that the ability to "re-cycle" from one thing to another is a key part of dealing with life on lifes' terms.

3.) Economy of Energy: A practitioner learns to never work harder than his partner in an encounter.

As far as "ki" goes I am afraid we just don't get that "cosmic". I don't know what "Ki" is and nobody is able to explain it to me so I can't explain it to others. One thing I will say is that the more consistently I train the more skilled I become. If thats "ki" so be it.

I could go on and on and on about codes and traditions and ethics in Hapkido but I think THAT would be where your comments about religion might come into play. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

As a Korean art, Hapkido is bound by the O-Gae which was reported originated in the 6th century.

As a Korean art, Hapkido is subsumed under Korean martial tradition which includes the Chinese influences of the Ming dynasty as reflected through General Qi Ji-huangs manual and later through the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Ji.

As a Korean art, Hapkido is as valid in the use of weapons as well as without the use of weapons.

As a Korean art Hapkido is on a par with Chin Na, Ssierum, archery and a host of other practices.

The way you would have it, Hapkido would be "just Korean enough" to absolve you from being beholden to Japanese authority descending from Takeda, but not so Korean that you would be responsible for its place in the hierarchy of Korean material. You don't get it both ways. Either accept that you are a Korean art and the responsibilities that go with it, or accept that you are a Japanese art and go study in Japan. I suggest you quit deluding yourself that there is some sort of authentic "middle-ground" that exists without benefit of documents and solely on the basis of the intentions of somebodys' marketing scheme. FWIW.

So, in other words you cannot show a connection to a living art...

 

[iron_ox]

4. Warrior honor and how it relates to hapkido specifically.

Hello all,

This is an interesting issue. A bit general, but this is sometimes how I approach this. In this day and age, we are not "warriors" - we don't need to be, so often this type of warrior code is replaced by a "code of ethics" or "code of moral living" if you will. I see Hapkido as a combat art, and a "code of ethics" is something I expect that most people get at home - I can try to lead by example, but know I'm flawed, but basically I have always felt that if someone did not get a strong ethical code at home, I'm certainly not going to be able to cram one down their throat during a wrist lock. These people generally expose their lack of ethical character and are dismissed as students. My experience.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

".....So, in other words you cannot show a connection to a living art..."

I just did. You simply choose not to recognize it as a connection. You want to be a Korean art but outside of the auspices of Korean culture. Ergo: Looks like you will be doing your follow-up learning in Japan.

"......The way you would have it, Hapkido would be "just Korean enough" to absolve you from being beholden to Japanese authority descending from Takeda, but not so Korean that you would be responsible for its place in the hierarchy of Korean material. You don't get it both ways. Either accept that you are a Korean art and the responsibilities that go with it, or accept that you are a Japanese art and go study in Japan. I suggest you quit deluding yourself that there is some sort of authentic "middle-ground" that exists without benefit of documents and solely on the basis of the intentions of somebodys' marketing scheme. FWIW. "


Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

There is a difference about speaking about religion/strong personal beliefs and attempting to change a person's beliefs.

My master focuses on ki quite a bit. It is used to explain why we keep our ki fingers extended during most grappling techniques. Why you must relax your limbs if you wish to strike quickly. We are even begining to learn how the rotation of a technique/stike will cause you either to take ki away from or give ki to your attacker.

I'd say I spend a majorty of my training time (70-80%) focusing on what I am doing with my ki. When I started hapkido, I was very stiff. I kept my ki activiated thoughout my whole body when I should have only activiated the ki in the limb that is grabbing or striking. Now I am learning how to only put my ki in two fingers, or my wrist, or two knuckles for a punch. It causes me to be faster and stronger.

Regards to the circle theory, we believe that circular motion is seen everywhere in nature. All human motion is circular. Even a straight punch involves using circular motion from the hips and shoulder. When examining a technique, we look to see where the circular motion is occuring. And we try to add strength to the circular component. As we learn more, we learn to make the circles smaller-or tighter. This adds speed and strength.

The water therory is still not completly clear to me. I'd love to hear more people's ideas on this one.

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

"......My master focuses on ki quite a bit. It is used to explain why we keep our ki fingers extended during most grappling techniques. Why you must relax your limbs if you wish to strike quickly. We are even begining to learn how the rotation of a technique/stike will cause you either to take ki away from or give ki to your attacker......"

Before humanity understood the existence of the neuro-muscular network there were all kinds of exotic ways of explaining why our body does what it does. Nothing wrong with that. People used to think all kinds of things to explain what they couldn't otherwise understand. Some of these things (accupuncture?) still don't get fully explained in terms of modern science. With my recent experience in Korea have a new-found respect for the very subtle parts of Hapkido execution. There is nothing particularly cosmic about it. Just good solid training done often. For my part I am always comforted to find how closely manipulation of "Ki" goes hand in hand with re-direction, misalignment, unbalancing and untiming. I don't deny the existence of Ki, I just can't see making a Wagnerian Opera out of it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

Before humanity understood the existence of the neuro-muscular network there were all kinds of exotic ways of explaining why our body does what it does. Nothing wrong with that. People used to think all kinds of things to explain what they couldn't otherwise understand. Some of these things (accupuncture?) still don't get fully explained in terms of modern science. With my recent experience in Korea have a new-found respect for the very subtle parts of Hapkido execution. There is nothing particularly cosmic about it. Just good solid training done often. For my part I am always comforted to find how closely manipulation of "Ki" goes hand in hand with re-direction, misalignment, unbalancing and untiming.

Ki means different things to different people. I agree, there may be more western science-based ways to describe some aspects of ki. But like you said, there are things about ki science cannot describe. Like why accupuncture works.

Some people believe it more cosmic than others. I think it can pretty cosmic myself, and I enjoy that aspect. I believe that once I can master my own ki, I can master how to minipulate other's ki. Once I can master these aspects of ki, I can deserve to label myself a hapkido master. But I don't think all people have to view ki as I do.

BUT...I don't think we can take the "ki" out of hap"ki"do. We still need to talk about ki and why it is important. Even if you want to westernize "ki".

I've said before that everyone is allowed their own interpretations of hapkido. Hapkido is different for everyone.

But someone is not a hapkidoist if they don't strive to understand the core philisophies of the art. These philiposiphies are what makes hapkido different then jiu jits, kung fu, etc.

Jeremy

 

[iron_ox]

I just did. You simply choose not to recognize it as a connection. You want to be a Korean art but outside of the auspices of Korean culture. Ergo: Looks like you will be doing your follow-up learning in Japan.

Hello Bruce,

Again, what? You try to put a spin on things that are not there. I'm happy with the original Choi traditions, that's all I've EVER trained in. I see myself reponsible for those traditions, not some intangible "KMA" force you want to spook up here. I think you figure that if you train from a 500 year old book of dead traditions, put on a more Korean costume for training, and throw out the name Ssieurm that makes what you do more Korean than what I do? You have consistanly NEVER been able to prove any connections to Choi before Choi.

I have no argument that there are other KMA out there, many probably older than Hapkido - although you seemingly cannot pull a single LIVING tradition out the the multitude of KMA that you are claiming.

You cannot accept that what you have been taught in the art of Hapkido is Japanese in origin (although you seem to be the only one who cares so much about this) - now, maybe Prince Sejin did take martial tradition to Japan from Korea, that I will buy, but the further development of what he took was done in Japan - simple.

I am interested in the Choi tradition, it is fascinating to me how it relates to the Ji traditon and other newer martial styles, all going back to Choi in some way. That's all. If you feel a greater responsibility to create connections, bounce over to Beijing for the Chinese connection, well maybe Hong Kong, but don't be disappointed when the well is dry...

Until you can substanciate any of these claims, I am much more inclined to follow Jeremy's line of discussion. Not that I'm bored, but the I told you it was so and therefore it is, is just cyber ping pong...

Bruce, you want us all to see another side of the coin, for ME that will be through a living tradition, not a book or "comparitive study" where lots of arts have throws.

As always, with respect.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Turnabout is fair play. Apparently you figure if you keep saying "choi" enough it will erase an entire constellation of Korean traditions of which Chois' material is only one and a relative newcomer with weak bonafides at that. Sure its the one you are interested in. Good for you. But it is not the only one. Nor have you addressed the manner in which you carefully walk the line between not following a Japanese authority or a Korean authority.

Do you practice a Korean tradition or not? Yes or No

Do you practice a Japanese tradition yes or no?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jeremy:

"......I've said before that everyone is allowed their own interpretations of hapkido. Hapkido is different for everyone...."

I think thats a crock, Jeremy. I think thats a load of guff that people have been selling each other so that no one holds another person too accountable for whip-stitching together whatever they want and calling it whatever they want to. You have people practicing all sorts of outlandish weapons including nunchukas and calling what they do "Korean Martial Arts". Is this why people like KMA, because they can do whatever they feel like doing and noone will complain? Over here in the States people will talk about this opinion or that personality and its all judgments. But let somebody step in and start asking for proof of this and that and suddenly conversation sorta dries up. My sense is that folks have gotten accustomed to maintaining a certain level of "wiggleroom" in what they say and do and statements like yours seem to be the gas that keep that trolley running. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Turnabout is fair play. Apparently you figure if you keep saying "choi" enough it will erase an entire constellation of Korean traditions of which Chois' material is only one and a relative newcomer with weak bonafides at that. Sure its the one you are interested in. Good for you. But it is not the only one. Nor have you addressed the manner in which you carefully walk the line between not following a Japanese authority or a Korean authority.

Do you practice a Korean tradition or not? Yes or No ?

Do you practice a Japanese tradition yes or no?

I think you have some good points but you still have not given proof of any credible 500 year old KMA that have survived the ages!!!! There is a group that has tried to use the MYDTJ and demonstrate it but this was done well after the MYDTJ was long since dead! I have talked with GM Lim about Hapkidos origins and he always says that through the natural flow of things Mudo traveled through China into Korea then into Japan. DJN Choi was Korean, He studied in Japan then went back to Korea and taught his interpertation of an outstanding Mudoin who was his teacher! Korea has its own unique culture that has been heavily influenced by other cultures through wars and conflict. It is only natural that Koreans would take the strong points of a culture and make it their own!!!!! Why is this concept so hard for you: Bruce :whip: Please don't take offense Bruce but do you see the problem with your resoning?

We all have different things that we seek from our training. We just need to promote the groups or kwans that are REAL. Lets not fight and argue about weather the MYDTJ or the kwan system is in order with what Bruce thinks is correct!

SOX JUST WON THE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[Barrie]

Dear Todd,

Thanks for the kick list. Both DJN Kim and GM Lim were taught by DJN Choi but they have different numbers of kicks, very similar, said to have been taught to them. Do you have any reason for the difference? For example did GM Lim modify or drop out some kicks that may have been taught originally? Any ideas.

Thanks for the news about the Red Sox, about time eh?

Regards,

Barrie

 

[howard]

SOX JUST WON THE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
www.millersmudo.com

well, there's one thing everybody ought to be able to agree on (lol).