Handgun Disarms

[First Action]

You might enjoy reading this blog post. http://www.freeselfdefencetips.com/2010/10/training-with-and-against-hand-guns.html

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Michael,



Thanks for the breakdown there. I have some passing familiarity with Kenpo as a more generic form, but not much knowledge on the different lineages. The methods seem fairly similar to Koryu systems in that way (specific pre-set responces to specific pre-set attacking methods [or occasionally simply specific pre-set attacking methods against someone who is in the way!]). These are what we refer to as "kata", rather than the more popular usage of the term as found in arts such as Karate (and this is what I meant when I refered to kata earlier).

.....

I think this may come to the nub of the matter. I have noticed a tendancy, particularly with Western students, to want an "answer" to the "questions", and get stuck on thinking that the techniques are the answers, without looking at the techniques as more of an answer key. They aren't answers. But if you view them as such, then you expect them to "work" in their plain form. They are really more like the concept of what "plus" is versus what "multiplication" is, rather than "one plus one equals..." which will only let you get an answer of "two".

When someone has the idea that the technique is the answer itself, there is a tendancy to assume that the only way it works is the one way. And that precludes such exploration of the technique in more detail, unfortunately. This seems to be the approach of the you-tube variants, where there is only the one way it works, and it doesn't change. Oh, and doing things fast is always impressive, and isn't that the point of you-tube in the first place?

Hi Chris, thanks for getting back on this.

I'll ask you a question: In the Kata that you refer to in the Koryu systems, how many are there? How big is that body of material? The reason I bring that up is because I believe that in order to get the benefits from the material, you need to be able to work it over and over, building proficiency with the material, and having time to dig in and look more deeply into it. With some of the kenpo lineages, the curriculum list can be so large that it makes that repetition and deeper study difficult to manage. Quite frankly, there is just too much there and it's impossible to give much attention to any of it. This leads to an approach that is more like simply memorizing the tech, without that deeper study and repetition. It's all the student has time for because one can feel spread too thin. I think this encourages the mentality that the tech really is THE answer, or at least AN answer, as written.

This is probably the best thing that anyone training with you can hear, really. I'd be thrilled to hear that someone was not just accepting "well, it's done this way, and it works". However if I encounter what I consider a "flaw", then that usually just means that I haven't looked at it hard enough yet...

This has actually been a source of frustration for me for many years. I have a weird love-hate relationship with kenpo, and I've become a pretty harsh critic of it in some ways, including aspects of my own lineage. I suppose that's part of the process of really owning the material. But I question a lot of it much of the time.

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike,



Hmm, I don't think so. Earlier I was talking about the approach to the technique itself from a practical and realistic point of view, here I am offering a potential alternate reasoning for a standard training methodology. I'd think that by the time you were dealing with something like a gun threat, such training aids as suggested by my post would not be required, and as such for a more "realistic" technique I would have expected them to have been dropped there.

Hey Chris,

Sorry about that. Chalk that up to me not reading the other post as well as I should've.

There are similar things in some Jujutsu systems, flowing from one lock or pin to another. You don't actually change once you have someone held (in actual application), but they are taught as a sequence so you can train all of them in a formal method.

Agreed. The only time I might consider a transition, is if things aren't going well with that original lock. Of course, during that transition, I'd have to find some sort of punishment to fit in, along the way...you know..to give them something else to think about, while I attempt something else.

Absolutely agreed. That is the main difference between the focus of my two posts.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris, thanks for getting back on this.

My pleasure.

I'll ask you a question: In the Kata that you refer to in the Koryu systems, how many are there? How big is that body of material? The reason I bring that up is because I believe that in order to get the benefits from the material, you need to be able to work it over and over, building proficiency with the material, and having time to dig in and look more deeply into it. With some of the kenpo lineages, the curriculum list can be so large that it makes that repetition and deeper study difficult to manage. Quite frankly, there is just too much there and it's impossible to give much attention to any of it. This leads to an approach that is more like simply memorizing the tech, without that deeper study and repetition. It's all the student has time for because one can feel spread too thin. I think this encourages the mentality that the tech really is THE answer, or at least AN answer, as written.

Ah, now that's not such an easy question to answer, as it depends on the Koryu in question. Some examples:

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu contains 12 Long Sword kata, 7 Short Sword kata, 5 Two Sword kata, 20 Staff kata, as well as some Jutte and Jujutsu at a high level. These kata are very short, for example the first Long sword kata is basically an evasion against a downward cut and thrust to the throat.

Katori Shinto Ryu also has relatively few few kata, but they are very long (for the most part), being made up of some 20 to 30 movements in some cases. The kata list is (in the "public" side of the art) includes 4 kata in the Omote no Tachi, 5 in the Gogyo no Tachi, 3 in the Shichijo no Tachi, and more in the "secret" teachings, 6 kata in the Omote no Iai, 5 in the Tachiai Battojutsu, 5 in the Gokui no Iai, 4 kata in the Ryoto Jutsu, 3 in the Kodachijutsu, 6 kata in the Omote no Bojutsu, another 6 in the Gogyo no Bojutsu, 4 kata in the Omote no Naginatajutsu, 3 in the Gokui Shichijo no Naginatajutsu, 6 kata in the Omote no Yari, and another 2 in the Hiden Yari Gata, and 36 Jujutsu kata. That then gets expanded with a section on Shurikenjutsu, strategy, tactics, castle fortification, Ninjutsu, esoteric Buddhism, and much more. So it's a big school in the end.

The Takagi lineages boast between 120 and over 300 kata for Jujtusu depending on lineage.

Shinto Muso Ryu features 64 formal kata for Jo, as well as 12 to 18 kata for sword (Kasumi Shinto Ryu), Tanjo (Uchida Ryu), Jutte (Ikkatsu Ryu), Kusarigama (Isshin Ryu), and 36 ties for Hojojutsu (Ittatsu Ryu).

If we look at the lineages in the Ninjutsu systems, they range from less than 30 kata (Togakure Ryu), to around 50 (Gyokko and Koto Ryu), and up to the above mentioned Takagi Ryu.

Some systems are very "short", others are quite involved. As to repetition, yep it absolutely is necessary. The way that is dealt with in Koryu is to only move onto the next section once sufficient skill and experience is attained in the section you are going through. So while there may be many many kata in a particular Ryu, you may not see some of them until you've been training in the system for 10, 15 years or more. If you are just interested in collecting the kata, you really won't get anywhere, and you typically won't be learning in a Koryu school anyway, as that is not the way you'll be taught.

This has actually been a source of frustration for me for many years. I have a weird love-hate relationship with kenpo, and I've become a pretty harsh critic of it in some ways, including aspects of my own lineage. I suppose that's part of the process of really owning the material. But I question a lot of it much of the time.

That, to my mind, means you're more likely to truly "own" the material then. Very cool.

Hey Chris,

Sorry about that. Chalk that up to me not reading the other post as well as I should've.

Hey Mike,

Ha, not a problem. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify!

Agreed. The only time I might consider a transition, is if things aren't going well with that original lock. Of course, during that transition, I'd have to find some sort of punishment to fit in, along the way...you know..to give them something else to think about, while I attempt something else.

Yeah, same with us. If changing direction, it is either because we're using the opponents momentum (ie their resistance), or if it's a direction we're choosing, then we need them to not resist... and that means "distracting" them enough for us to apply what we need to! And there's little better in terms of distracting than a good solid hit to take their attention....

 

[BloodMoney]

Id watched a bunch of stuff online and on DVD about handgun disarm, American and British LE stuff. It was pretty cool, some of it was good, but most of it seemed not simple enough, or too dangerous (as was said, muzzle flash in the face isnt nice).

Then I ordered some Krav Maga DVDs off Ebay (totally legitimate ones, nevermind that they came direct from Israel on blank DVDs with "Krav Maga" written messily with pen on top ).

The whole mindset is different. Its brutal. Its desperate. Its effective and realistic. One opens with a guy talking about how in Israel because of mandatory military service you must prepare to fight another soldier at any time on the street etc. They would end techniques by discharging the gun into the opponents head as he lay on the ground, or turning it on himself to make him shoot himself. The "nice" LE ones id seen had none of this.

I also noticed that the mechanics behind the technique were clearly shown and explained (in some). It enabled me, with no Krav Maga training, to quickly figure it out with a plastic gun and one of my instructors (okay but im not exactly going to start teaching it now though). Im a keen shooter so I know how to handle a gun, though here in NZ its very hard to get a handgun so I'm looking at focusing on long rifle disarming instead, cant seem to find much on that though.

But yeah, Israeli Krav Maga for the win. If im not mistaken its what a lot of LE training in the States is based off anyway isnt it?

 

[Yondanchris]

1) Often the basics of observation and knowledge of firearms is neglected,
such as the basics of knowing if a firearm is loaded or cocked and locked!
once while working security I was able to disarm a thug because I knew the
weapon was not loaded (no magazine in the weapon) and the safety was ON!

2) Application of Handgun disarms usually assume that you are quicker than a bullet!
I highly stress verbal de-escalation techniques before physical techniques can be
applied. Each of my students must attempt to de-escalate the situation before they
practice the physical technique!

This question was asked on another forum, however, it didn't get as many replies as I thought, so I figured I'd ask here.

The question is as follows:

1) What are some often neglected points when working gun disarms?

2) Did you ever notice any impractical methods of application? If so, explain.

For the sake of discussion, we can use the Parker 'rod' techniques as a base. If there are any Tracy Kenpo and Kaju folks that would like to chime in, please feel free to do so.

 

[Doc]

Yes, safety MUST be top priority...The seminar I attended had a Range Officer at the door. Mags were checked upon arrival to insure they were empty and any ankle holster weapon was removed and checked, I believe a pat down was preformed. In addidtion all weapons were checked EVERYTIME any officer left and re-entered the room. Yes, the Blade Tech Training Barrel is an EXCELLENT device.

If you opt to go with a training weapon then use the Blueguns.. For LEO training they make/made a training gun in black that was only available to LEO's, I had mine sent to the department.Prolly the realistic looking trainer I ever saw.For schools the blueguns will suffice..

In my advanced officer classes it depends upon the training and environment what weapon we use to train. Simulated are great for outdoors on hard surfaces and role play. However I start everyone on a matted surface utilizing their own duty weapon because they are familiar with it, and the weight is important.

No ammo or magazines are are allowed in the training area, and everyone is searched. Each weapon is then inspected by me, and like a technique line by everyone else in the room after me as well. The magazine well is sealed with red tape to prevent a mag being inserted, and the bright red tape is wrapped around the grip to be visible. Lastly a strip of tape is place around the front of the slide for visibility and to seal the slide.

Before each session we check the seals to make sure they are not broken and the magazine well is secure and empty. I am the only one with the tape, and I often change colors.