Fighting Multiples: A Possibility or A Fantasy?

[MJS]

During some of my free time, I lurk on various forums. I say lurk, because there isn't enough time in the day to be a member of every forum out there, but I do enjoy reading various posts, and the views of people.

So, while I'm lurking, I often come across threads on fighting multiple opponents. The opinions vary, with some saying its possible, and others saying that anyone teaching students how to do this, is a fake, because its impossible to fight more than 1.

During my SKK years, I never saw any mult. opponent training, however in the Parker/Tracy system and even in Kajukenbo, there are techniques designed for more than one person.

So my question to the Kenpo/Kaju folks on this board is: What are your thoughts on this? Are there other methods that you use in your training to address this, other than the set techniques?

 

[marlon]

During some of my free time, I lurk on various forums. I say lurk, because there isn't enough time in the day to be a member of every forum out there, but I do enjoy reading various posts, and the views of people.

So, while I'm lurking, I often come across threads on fighting multiple opponents. The opinions vary, with some saying its possible, and others saying that anyone teaching students how to do this, is a fake, because its impossible to fight more than 1.

During my SKK years, I never saw any mult. opponent training, however in the Parker/Tracy system and even in Kajukenbo, there are techniques designed for more than one person.

So my question to the Kenpo/Kaju folks on this board is: What are your thoughts on this? Are there other methods that you use in your training to address this, other than the set techniques?

speaking for the skk i have been exposed to and train, the cross and cover after techniques is specifically to address multiple attackers...but that does not answer your question. We have a dragon circle; gauntlet; kempo sparring multiple opponents, as well as reaction drills that progress to multiple attacker situations. the best thing is to be aware of your exit, power a hole in that direction and run. Your goal in a multiple attacker situation is an exit or a better defensive position so your techniques need to move you with a single minded goal to safety. of course, cut and damage as much as possible and in my opinon as ruthlessly as possible on the way. Again training trumps techniques this is why we have the above mentioned training tools.


Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[pete]

In baguazhang, we learn to 'stack' our opponents, which means we keep ourselves moving as to position one opponent behind the other. This keeps us actively fighting one at a time.

The american kenpo techniques that i am familiar sometimes put us between two opponents, which is not a good place to be... but you might end up there!

so between these two methods we have the ideal and the what-if. in my opinion is that if you find yourself in the what-if mode, take care of it best you can (the kenpo techniques are some good ideas)... but get back to the ideal (ie, bagua stacking~)

pete

 

[JTKenpo]

Good answers in my opinion from both Marlon and Pete. To reenforce a few points the idea is to ONLY fight one at a time even if there are multiple attackers. In other words "stack" the opponents as Pete said to keep only one in front of you and deal with that one. I think some people like to split hairs far too fine and say that it is impossible to fight two people simultaneously, which may be true but it is also true that you can fight two attackers off at the same time. No they are not going to just wait their turn to attack BUT it is possible to get to the outside of the two and disable one and then deal with the other.

My experience anyway.

 

[punisher73]

Is it possible? Yes. Many people have done it and there are even a couple clips on youtube of people doing it.

Strategy and movement are they keys, also know your personal weapons and target selection.

1) Awareness is key, know where your opponents are at all times
2) You can only fight one person at a time, even if it is split seconds apart. Use your movement to use one opponent to shield you from the others.
3) You goal is not to fight multiple opponents, it is to do enough damage and shock them to get away safely. This is not the movies where you stand in the middle of the circle and duke it out until you are the last one standing.
4) Choose techniques that will do one or more three things to your opponent. Take away his breathing, eyesight, and movement. If he can't catch his breath, see you or move to you, he can't hurt you when you run.
5) Understand multiple opponent psychology and strategy. Watch for the set up that they will try to take and flank you in the first place. This also goes back to the first of awareness.

 

[RevIV]

Ummmmm, all the forms are fighting multiple people, and if you are doing the bunkai then you are training to fight multiple people -- heck the knuckle roll in the beg. of 1 pinan strikes two people in the groin. I have a lot of forms that are hitting two people simo.

 

[John Bishop]

All good points, especially about stacking up attackers. Plus I think you have to understand the psychology of a group attacker. For the most part they attack in groups because they lack the courage or ability to fight well alone. A couple good shots from a good fighter will cause some of these people to lose heart and quit.
There always the nay sayers who claim that things like knee breaks, eye pokes, throat strikes, etc, aren't effective. But they the same ones who say 90% of all fights go to the ground. Well, a large percentage of fighters may be knocked down, slip, or be pulled down. But that doesn't guarantee a grappling situation. Most people just get kicked and stomped until they can get back on their feet.
But for the grappler who has no techniques for fighting multiple attackers, they just claim it's impossible to fight multiple attackers. So why waste your time training to do so.

Well, here's some real life incidents of multiple attackers.

Simple rules:

Stay on your feet
Stack the attackers up
Keep moving
Don't tie yourself up with just 1 attacker. Hit him or kick him a few times while trying to watch the others with your peripheral vision.
Try and make each strike or kick count. Target the knee, groin, eyes, throat, etc.
Keep looking for your chance to escape.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

There always the nay sayers who claim that things like knee breaks, eye pokes, throat strikes, etc, aren't effective. But they the same ones who say 90% of all fights go to the ground. Well, a large percentage of fighters may be knocked down, slip, or be pulled down. But that doesn't guarantee a grappling situation. Most people just get kicked and stomped until they can get back on their feet.
But for the grappler who has no techniques for fighting multiple attackers, they just claim it's impossible to fight multiple attackers. So why waste your time training to do so.

Some good points, but the vast majority of instances I've witnessed myself have ended up with two guys (or gals, really rough women drink in the pubs by me) scrabbling round trying to get up and give the other a kick. Usually though they just end up repetedly pulling each other around and down to the floor whilst swinging their arms. But that's just what I've seen personally.
My opinion is that if you have to fight for your life then you'll fight whoever is in the way. Whether it's one or even ten. If you need to you'll fight and you'll use everything you've got to win. The chances of you winning are next to none but as Terry Pratchett would say, 'If it's a million to one chance, it's sure to work!'

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well I have to agree with lining the people up and then trying to only take on one at a time. Multiple opponents that are intent on doing you damage are a very, very dangerous situation. However there simply are no absolutes in martial science training or execution in the moment. Meaning that it is possible to defend yourself against multiple attackers and yet I do not think that any of us want to be in that situation any time soon because the odds are not good.

 

[LawDog]

It is very difficult to use techniques during a multi opponent attack. One must fall back onto their "live drill" training to be effective.
Multi opponent techniques are,
* designed to help you understand a multi situation,
* give you idea's on how to respond,
* teach you proper footwork in a multi situation.
Multi drills will allow you to feel / experience the live flow of a multi opponent attack. Multi techniques tend to be static in nature.
A Golden Rule for a multi situation,
You should control the situation enough so that you keep your opponents away from each other. In this way you can, hopefully, be dealing with one opponent for very short time periods, (most SKK forms display this).
If your opponts are allowed to, from any angle, to get close to each other they will be unified in their assault.
Just a few on my thoughts / experience.
:soapbox:

 

[bowser666]

I hope you guys do not mind that I am chiming in this section. I used to study kenpo but now study Kung Fu and we are taught that forms, as well as "dragon circles" are good preparations for dealing with multiple attackers. In fact as you get into the black belt areas , it is required for testing. 2nd degree is 3 vs 1 , and for 3rd degree ( Sifu ) it is required to do 6 vs 1 sparring. I have seen footage of this and it was insane! regardless of style, practicing sparring , doing forms, is all building up to the eventual goal of instinctive response. I personally would look for an exit before I got involved into a tangle with a group of guys.

 

[kenpofighter]

More than two attackers: have fun! But with two attacker I think it is very possible if the person getting attacked knows what he is doing. In kenpo we teach to share: a hit to one guy, a kick to another, and back and forth till they are both down. We also try to keep them both in front of us or to our forty-fives. This keeps us from getting whacked in the back of the head. Dangerous but Doable. But, hey, isn't it all!

 

[John Bishop]

I think we sometimes forget. That just because people like to bully people once their in groups, doesn't mean they know how to fight. In fact the majority of people have little or no fighting skills.
Most people who know how to fight, don't need the assistance of others. As you can see in the Turkisk You Tube vid, a lot of guys wanted to fight. But only one guy actually knew how to fight. He just used basics. Kept his guard up, moved around, just used a few well placed techniques, and never spent too much time with one attacker.

 

[BLACK LION]

absolutely...one should always assume there are multiple attackers even in a singular confrontation..... always penetrate and rotate ....penetrate rotate

 

[Bodhisattva]

During some of my free time, I lurk on various forums. I say lurk, because there isn't enough time in the day to be a member of every forum out there, but I do enjoy reading various posts, and the views of people.

So, while I'm lurking, I often come across threads on fighting multiple opponents. The opinions vary, with some saying its possible, and others saying that anyone teaching students how to do this, is a fake, because its impossible to fight more than 1.

During my SKK years, I never saw any mult. opponent training, however in the Parker/Tracy system and even in Kajukenbo, there are techniques designed for more than one person.

So my question to the Kenpo/Kaju folks on this board is: What are your thoughts on this? Are there other methods that you use in your training to address this, other than the set techniques?

Fighting more than one opponent.

When will the fairy tales end?

 

[MA-Caver]

All good points, especially about stacking up attackers. Plus I think you have to understand the psychology of a group attacker. For the most part they attack in groups because they lack the courage or ability to fight well alone. A couple good shots from a good fighter will cause some of these people to lose heart and quit.
There always the nay sayers who claim that things like knee breaks, eye pokes, throat strikes, etc, aren't effective. But they the same ones who say 90% of all fights go to the ground. Well, a large percentage of fighters may be knocked down, slip, or be pulled down. But that doesn't guarantee a grappling situation. Most people just get kicked and stomped until they can get back on their feet.
But for the grappler who has no techniques for fighting multiple attackers, they just claim it's impossible to fight multiple attackers. So why waste your time training to do so.

Well, here's some real life incidents of multiple attackers.

Simple rules:

Stay on your feet
Stack the attackers up
Keep moving
Don't tie yourself up with just 1 attacker. Hit him or kick him a few times while trying to watch the others with your peripheral vision.
Try and make each strike or kick count. Target the knee, groin, eyes, throat, etc.
Keep looking for your chance to escape.

Both are great videos for the nay-sayers of multiple attackers/fighters. The Turkish guy did exactly what he was supposed to do; keep moving and keep everyone within a line of sight and not letting them gang up on him or surround him. He was also hitting them hard enough and accurately enough to throw them off balance and to the ground, thus freeing himself to face the next guy and the next.

The 2 to 1 guy just turned a defense into a highly aggressive offense, again another good example of how to stay on top of the situation. Seeing one go down and focusing on the next and yes both videos prove your point that most when seeing aggression turned (back) towards them, hesitate and either back off or reduce the aggression of their own attack.

I've faced multiples twice in my years and got away with my life both times because I didn't cower and hope they'd go away... also ran like hell as soon as the opportunity presented it self, which occurred after laying some blows of my own and forcing the "group" to pause and re-think tactics, which gave me my window of opportunity to run.

Fighting multiples IS possible, the main element is getting over the fear and then being twice as aggressive as the attackers.

 

[John Bishop]

Fighting more than one opponent.

When will the fairy tales end?

Ah, spoken like a true grappler. Hopefully you really don't believe what your saying? That kind of belief is automatically planning to fail.

People fight multiple attackers quite often. And many people come out winners. I can't remember how many times as a patrol officer I've arrived at the scene where some guy has mopped up the floor with 2-3 guys.
There are probably many people on this forum who have fought multiple attackers, and came out either on top, or at least in one piece.
Now days with the use of cell phone cameras, or surveillance cameras, there is plenty of video evidence that people can engage multiple attackers, and sometimes come out on top if they use good tactics and strategy.

 

[Tez3]

Some good points, but the vast majority of instances I've witnessed myself have ended up with two guys (or gals, really rough women drink in the pubs by me) scrabbling round trying to get up and give the other a kick. Usually though they just end up repetedly pulling each other around and down to the floor whilst swinging their arms. But that's just what I've seen personally.
My opinion is that if you have to fight for your life then you'll fight whoever is in the way. Whether it's one or even ten. If you need to you'll fight and you'll use everything you've got to win. The chances of you winning are next to none but as Terry Pratchett would say, 'If it's a million to one chance, it's sure to work!'

:lfao: Ah the Black Country's fair damsels!

 

[marlon]

Ah, spoken like a true grappler. Hopefully you really don't believe what your saying? That kind of belief is automatically planning to fail.

true enough

 

[Danjo]

Fighting more than one opponent.

When will the fairy tales end?

Hmmm... I've read an interview with Rorion Gracie where he said the same thing. He admitted that BJJ doesn't teach you to deal with multiple attackers, but that nothing else would really work either.

Two things have changed since that interview: 1) Video tape of these kind of fights has proven him wrong, and 2.) The Gracies no longer dominate MMA.

Rickson versus Fedor anyone?