Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Such a comparison by the student does us both honor. Thank you Cory.
Dan
Dan
when it comes to speed obviously the better your mechanics the faster you will be,but you are only working the physical part.muscle memory is great when training slow but i got faster by training my attributes. for an example to be fast you have to convince your brain you are fast then you have to be able to relay the message from your brain to your muscles with the same type of speed and conviction. try doing your jab full motion start to finnish,then do your jab 50% of the distance ie a half jab. then try starting your jab at 50%distance and finnish at 100% full range,this is just one way to isolate your speed training. not to mention your perceptual training when you work with a partner don't forget about that either.
later
jay
ps this drill came from paul vunaks attribute tape 1 and yes i do kenpo as well. i hope this helps
later
jay
ps this drill came from paul vunaks attribute tape 1 and yes i do kenpo as well. i hope this helps
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
You're welcome Mr. Farmer. :asian:
OP
Elfan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #24
Power = work/time = force * velocity
How is power seperated from speed? Or are you saying that speed is a *good* thing to have but a *bad* thing to work on? It is much better to work on your form, those goofy speed drills and playing with speed bags are unuseful?
Aww that was my confusion! I do not think of fluid motion and slow motion nececarily synomous. Your reference to Tai Chi was a refernce to both. Sounds like a good way to train to me.
jaybacca72 , how do you break down the differnt types of speed? I saw a refernec to physcial and perceptual speed.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
I know this was directed at jaybacca72, but I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here.
There are actually 3 types of speed, perceptual, mental, and physical. Perceptual speed is how fast we perceive the things going on around us, mental speed is how fast the brain relays the perceived information to the body, and physical speed is the quickness at which our body moves. I'm sure jaybacca72 can give a much better explanation.
OP
Chu-Chulain
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #26
Just to be clear on my earlier posts and to ensure I was not misunderstood. My suggestions were directed solely at the original question which was asking about speed drills, etc.
I am personally a big advocate of slow and deliberate training. Being not as young as I used to be (dreaded middle age, ugh.....), I need a bit more mental and physical reenforcement than some of the younger kids (18-24ish) who appear to grasp things a lot quicker than me. Also, frankly I am not anywhere near peak physical condition and do not currently train particularly for speed, being more interested in applied knowledge than knocking anyones block off!
However, if you really want to be quick, speed training is important, constantly training slowly but accurate will only do so much, you have to practice fast if you want to be fast.
Personally if I were to choose between speed, power and accuracy, I would place them as:
1. Accuracy
2. Speed
3. Power
If you are not accurate, you will never execute correctly, if you are slow, your opponent can dodge, so without these two, raw physical power is very limited. In fact if you train too much for strength, your actual muscle mass will tend to slow you down, especially on hand movements.
I think as with many things its finding the correct balance, which of course is different for everyone.
BTW I am not aware of the controversy over plyometrics, but would be truly interested to learn more on the subject.
I am personally a big advocate of slow and deliberate training. Being not as young as I used to be (dreaded middle age, ugh.....), I need a bit more mental and physical reenforcement than some of the younger kids (18-24ish) who appear to grasp things a lot quicker than me. Also, frankly I am not anywhere near peak physical condition and do not currently train particularly for speed, being more interested in applied knowledge than knocking anyones block off!
However, if you really want to be quick, speed training is important, constantly training slowly but accurate will only do so much, you have to practice fast if you want to be fast.
Personally if I were to choose between speed, power and accuracy, I would place them as:
1. Accuracy
2. Speed
3. Power
If you are not accurate, you will never execute correctly, if you are slow, your opponent can dodge, so without these two, raw physical power is very limited. In fact if you train too much for strength, your actual muscle mass will tend to slow you down, especially on hand movements.
I think as with many things its finding the correct balance, which of course is different for everyone.
BTW I am not aware of the controversy over plyometrics, but would be truly interested to learn more on the subject.
bdparsons
Black Belt
at work here. This thread seemed to quickly deviate from the initial question that was asked and has slowly started to come back around. The assumption I speak of is people thinking that speed training is at the expense of everything else. When we speak of training at slow speed form is obviously paramount, but is it any less paramount when training for speed? Absolutely not!! The concepts introduced are meant to supplement the good form you develop in other ways to result in speed. If all other factors are the same, speed will allow you to be devastating. Kudos to the individual who spoke of the relationship between accuracy, speed and power. They have it exactly right.
If you want to train all day long on the perfect form, go ahead and at the end of your training you will have slow, perfect form. Not enough to help your hiney when the game is on. Please folks, remember speed is a crucial element of your training. One element, yes, but no less important than the other elements of accuracy or power or form. If you have an instructor who does not teach the elements of speed in your training, don't be too hard on them, that's probably the way they were taught. If you are one of these instructors, you owe it to yourself and your students to do some serious catching up.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
If you want to train all day long on the perfect form, go ahead and at the end of your training you will have slow, perfect form. Not enough to help your hiney when the game is on. Please folks, remember speed is a crucial element of your training. One element, yes, but no less important than the other elements of accuracy or power or form. If you have an instructor who does not teach the elements of speed in your training, don't be too hard on them, that's probably the way they were taught. If you are one of these instructors, you owe it to yourself and your students to do some serious catching up.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #28
Um..ah...I suspect my instructors can be relied upon.
The only time Larry Tatum mentions speed in class is in terms of getting the technique done rather than fooling about (as in "Robert! come on, get it done!") or in terms of, "useless speed."
Sure, speed's important. But what are its elements? How is it to be trained?
Like Dan, I said nothing about only training slowly. Of course not. What I said was that the pursuit of speed as an end in itself, the isolation of speed (particularly hand speed) from everything else in kenpo, are dead ends. I don't have a lifetime's experience by any stretch of the imagination, but after seeing some martial artists and some students who obsess on sheer speed, I can say this: nearly all buy their speed at the expense of everything that counts.
As for personal experience, there's this: all increases in speed, guess why? better form, better stances, better dropping, better comprehension of what I'm doing.
I also stand behind the idea that I think Dan had in mind: it is a detriment to beginners to work on speed. On the forums, though, you hear the claims a lot: work just on speed. Work on strength. Work on....isolated things.
I say, work the techniques, the basics, the forms, the sets. The speed will come in its own sweet time. Anyway, isn't speed part of the basics as they are?
Of course, Joe Lewis could kick my tail in a second, so there ya go.
The only time Larry Tatum mentions speed in class is in terms of getting the technique done rather than fooling about (as in "Robert! come on, get it done!") or in terms of, "useless speed."
Sure, speed's important. But what are its elements? How is it to be trained?
Like Dan, I said nothing about only training slowly. Of course not. What I said was that the pursuit of speed as an end in itself, the isolation of speed (particularly hand speed) from everything else in kenpo, are dead ends. I don't have a lifetime's experience by any stretch of the imagination, but after seeing some martial artists and some students who obsess on sheer speed, I can say this: nearly all buy their speed at the expense of everything that counts.
As for personal experience, there's this: all increases in speed, guess why? better form, better stances, better dropping, better comprehension of what I'm doing.
I also stand behind the idea that I think Dan had in mind: it is a detriment to beginners to work on speed. On the forums, though, you hear the claims a lot: work just on speed. Work on strength. Work on....isolated things.
I say, work the techniques, the basics, the forms, the sets. The speed will come in its own sweet time. Anyway, isn't speed part of the basics as they are?
Of course, Joe Lewis could kick my tail in a second, so there ya go.
There is a certain minimum speed at which a block, strike, parry, etc. is effective. It is not subjective but empirical, and based upon not only your "speed" but your opponent's momentum, through whatever dimension. The AKKI has some interesting rhythm drills and Paul Mills is known for his incredible hand speed. I was at the Pasadena school in 91 @ the IKKA seminar following Mr. Parker's passing, and the number of his students attending and participating was phenomenal (all Black Belt if my memory serves me.) Paul Mills put on an astounding demonstration of not just hand speed, but speed throughout the techniques he taught, with power. Mr. Parker's "Flow first, power later" was the axiom of the day. The relaxed muscles were necessary to generate the speed. Hmmm....?
Anyhow, my point, I have taught the seminars where you strike 18 times in a 6 second burst. I then move to the "but hadn't you rather strike a fewer number of times with more power" and proceed to introduce the principles, concepts and theories of American Kenpo? I was trying to dissuade a somewhat skeptical audience, from thinking that Kenpo was a "Slap Art". I taught that you have to allow the opponent's body time to react and introduced borrowed force, feeding, rebouding, etc. Needless to say, I suceeded and got invited back. Shucks, I ain't nothing compared to my teachers.
I have had a few boxers with amazing hand speed in my school. There is no wasted motion when they are in boxing mode, and they hit truely hard with a resounding THWACK ... pretty much every time. What was more impressive to me was the speed of the footwork, which made the hands more effective. They were doing what we did, but much more specialized and limited in terms of weapons. This allowed them to practice a very few things, but with a much larger number of repetitions in the boxing gym. When you have thrown thousands of effective punches, it is easy to see why they punch better than a kenpoist who is working on long range, contact penetration range, and contact manipulation ranges with a variety of weapons. It takes us longer - unless you are like a friend of mine, Julian, who just quit testing when he discovered sparring. He did exactly what the boxers did, practicing over, and over, and over a limited number of moves until they were spontaneous. We had some interesting times with seminars from people like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, and a couple of regulars at Brian Duffy's school were nationally rated, Covert Blackledge and Raymond McCallum for example. Mr. McCallum taught by doing, and the lessons tended to stick with you, especially the ones associated with bruises and dings. One of Julian's favorite teachers. Julian sparred like a Brown Belt by the end of 2 years of sparring at Orange Belt. Mr. Duffy finally made him test, so by Brown he was training for full contact fights.
Practice, practice, practice - add "Perfect" to that statement and you will have it. Just work that 2 punch or 3 punch combo over and over again, shadow box it, work it on the bag, work it against mitts, work it until you don't think about it ... and add the footwork (the hardest thing of all) until it comes naturally for you.
Have fun with it and one day it will just be there for you.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
Anyhow, my point, I have taught the seminars where you strike 18 times in a 6 second burst. I then move to the "but hadn't you rather strike a fewer number of times with more power" and proceed to introduce the principles, concepts and theories of American Kenpo? I was trying to dissuade a somewhat skeptical audience, from thinking that Kenpo was a "Slap Art". I taught that you have to allow the opponent's body time to react and introduced borrowed force, feeding, rebouding, etc. Needless to say, I suceeded and got invited back. Shucks, I ain't nothing compared to my teachers.
I have had a few boxers with amazing hand speed in my school. There is no wasted motion when they are in boxing mode, and they hit truely hard with a resounding THWACK ... pretty much every time. What was more impressive to me was the speed of the footwork, which made the hands more effective. They were doing what we did, but much more specialized and limited in terms of weapons. This allowed them to practice a very few things, but with a much larger number of repetitions in the boxing gym. When you have thrown thousands of effective punches, it is easy to see why they punch better than a kenpoist who is working on long range, contact penetration range, and contact manipulation ranges with a variety of weapons. It takes us longer - unless you are like a friend of mine, Julian, who just quit testing when he discovered sparring. He did exactly what the boxers did, practicing over, and over, and over a limited number of moves until they were spontaneous. We had some interesting times with seminars from people like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, and a couple of regulars at Brian Duffy's school were nationally rated, Covert Blackledge and Raymond McCallum for example. Mr. McCallum taught by doing, and the lessons tended to stick with you, especially the ones associated with bruises and dings. One of Julian's favorite teachers. Julian sparred like a Brown Belt by the end of 2 years of sparring at Orange Belt. Mr. Duffy finally made him test, so by Brown he was training for full contact fights.
Practice, practice, practice - add "Perfect" to that statement and you will have it. Just work that 2 punch or 3 punch combo over and over again, shadow box it, work it on the bag, work it against mitts, work it until you don't think about it ... and add the footwork (the hardest thing of all) until it comes naturally for you.
Have fun with it and one day it will just be there for you.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
OP
Elfan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #30
Woops guess I fall in the misunderstanding category. Anyway it seems that some of the articles on plyometrics I was thinking of arn't on the net anymore.
http://martialarts.about.com/cs/plyometrics/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/
Thats the best I could do, if you can find "Plyometrics: The Base of the Exercise Comunity" by Ken Hutchins that was the article I really had in mind.
Originally posted by kenpo_cory
I know this was directed at jaybacca72, but I gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here.
I would consider mental speed more how quickly we *interpret* what we percieve and decide what to do about it.
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
I don't know Bill ... I went back through the threads and I think everyone, including myself is over-simplifying. The whole topic of speed, power, etc. could probably be dealt with in a one thousand page plus type of book.
I am responding, because I do not want you, or anyone else to think that I do not advocate speed. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was responding based on Chu-Chulains post, because it left out, or seemed to at the time, the essence of the martial art, and that would be the correct form.
If speed in and of itself is the be all to end all (agan, my over simplification) then why would we need to study form and function? All we would really need is speed and an idea of motion.
My apologies if you thought I intended to detract from the speed side. I simply want to indicate that there should be more. And, really Bill, perhaps it is not a necessity of catching up anywhere, except in your model of the arts. :asian:
Dan
I am responding, because I do not want you, or anyone else to think that I do not advocate speed. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was responding based on Chu-Chulains post, because it left out, or seemed to at the time, the essence of the martial art, and that would be the correct form.
If speed in and of itself is the be all to end all (agan, my over simplification) then why would we need to study form and function? All we would really need is speed and an idea of motion.
My apologies if you thought I intended to detract from the speed side. I simply want to indicate that there should be more. And, really Bill, perhaps it is not a necessity of catching up anywhere, except in your model of the arts. :asian:
Dan
bdparsons
Black Belt
of the entire thread I realize I may have been the one with the incorrect assumption. It seemed to me, as you say Dan, that many were oversimplifying, and that was disturbing to me. My aplogies to anyone I may have offended. My model of the martial arts is probably no different than yourself or the majority of martial artists you know. I am not a "speed freak" (in any connotation of the phrase), I would consider myself to be a balanced martial artist. I hold each of the elements discussed in high regard.
Mr. Robertson, I certainly have no bone to pick with Mr. Tatum's teaching methods, his ability speaks for itself. It could very well be that he has developed other ways to teach speed to his students, rather than addressing the subject directly. I also have absolutely no use for speed just for the sake of speed. I'm not an "all fluff and no stuff" sort. I agree whole-heartedly with assertion that Kenpo is executed from the ground up. My students constantly hear the mantra of "No stance=No chance". But I would hope you agree that the element of speed must be addressed in some fashion to help any student gain the most from their overall training.
Mr. Billings, thank you for describing your teaching method relating to this subject.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
Mr. Robertson, I certainly have no bone to pick with Mr. Tatum's teaching methods, his ability speaks for itself. It could very well be that he has developed other ways to teach speed to his students, rather than addressing the subject directly. I also have absolutely no use for speed just for the sake of speed. I'm not an "all fluff and no stuff" sort. I agree whole-heartedly with assertion that Kenpo is executed from the ground up. My students constantly hear the mantra of "No stance=No chance". But I would hope you agree that the element of speed must be addressed in some fashion to help any student gain the most from their overall training.
Mr. Billings, thank you for describing your teaching method relating to this subject.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #33
No, in point of fact, I do not agree about addressing speed as an independant entity.
First off, I'm certainly no expert on sports physiology. But beyond the general ideas about kenpo I've already advanced, beyond my suspicion about training to separate the parts of the body when I think speed comes from unifying them and removing excess, beyond the fact that the exercises to build speed are already in kenpo, I looked briefly at the plyometrics site.
First: their description of lengthening/rapidly contracting is how I was taught to kick, back-knuckle, etc. in the first place. Second, the site mentions that plyometrics are primarily useful for people with lots of fast-twitch muscles--sprinters, that is. I'm a slow-twitch guy. More than that, the stuff mentioned as a benefit? I don't want it; I don't want the "explosive leaps," the jumps and kicks, etc. Me keep feet on ground. And what's the exact long-term physiological effect of such workouts on the knees, spine, joints, etc?
I'm probably overstating my case. And I don't claim expertise..I just say that this stuff is already in the kenpo soup mix.
Thanks for the discussion.
First off, I'm certainly no expert on sports physiology. But beyond the general ideas about kenpo I've already advanced, beyond my suspicion about training to separate the parts of the body when I think speed comes from unifying them and removing excess, beyond the fact that the exercises to build speed are already in kenpo, I looked briefly at the plyometrics site.
First: their description of lengthening/rapidly contracting is how I was taught to kick, back-knuckle, etc. in the first place. Second, the site mentions that plyometrics are primarily useful for people with lots of fast-twitch muscles--sprinters, that is. I'm a slow-twitch guy. More than that, the stuff mentioned as a benefit? I don't want it; I don't want the "explosive leaps," the jumps and kicks, etc. Me keep feet on ground. And what's the exact long-term physiological effect of such workouts on the knees, spine, joints, etc?
I'm probably overstating my case. And I don't claim expertise..I just say that this stuff is already in the kenpo soup mix.
Thanks for the discussion.
bdparsons
Black Belt
I'm not familiar with plyometrics, don't know that I care to be. Frankly just hearing folks discuss it on various forums leaves me a bit skeptical.
Well, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I've no doubt that you'll glean the the very best from your training and use it to continually improve.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
Well, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I've no doubt that you'll glean the the very best from your training and use it to continually improve.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
something I haven't seen mentioned yet (perhaps I missed it) is the concept of "point of origin."
Many other arts require hands to be chambered or bring an inward block way out to the outside to gain momentum for the inward block. Kenpo brings the hand from where it starts to where it stops, with no detour required. You can see this in Blocking set 1... the upward block turns directly into the inward block, no chambering, and also in Delayed Sword. Your inward block turns in to the outward handsword with no reset or chambering. your hand simply moves from point A (where you stopped your block) to point B (your target for the handsword) with no detour required.
Kenpoists look fast with their hands because many times they're making a move of about say...18 inches for an inward block (from hip to block final position) rather than 36 inches (from hip, outward and then inward to final block position, shotokan style ...I chose shotokan because we've got two people in the studio who came over from shotokan and this is how they block), so naturally, the 18 inch motion is twice as fast. "To beat a motion, meet it." By the time you make the 36 inch motion, your opponent's punch is probably only travelling 12 inches, if its a jab, and you've already been hit, because you have to travel three times as far. If you execute the kenpo inward block, travelling only 18 inches while stepping offline, you have a really good chance of not getting hit.
I'm sure the GoldenDragon or another kenpo black belt can explain it better than I, but I tried.
Many other arts require hands to be chambered or bring an inward block way out to the outside to gain momentum for the inward block. Kenpo brings the hand from where it starts to where it stops, with no detour required. You can see this in Blocking set 1... the upward block turns directly into the inward block, no chambering, and also in Delayed Sword. Your inward block turns in to the outward handsword with no reset or chambering. your hand simply moves from point A (where you stopped your block) to point B (your target for the handsword) with no detour required.
Kenpoists look fast with their hands because many times they're making a move of about say...18 inches for an inward block (from hip to block final position) rather than 36 inches (from hip, outward and then inward to final block position, shotokan style ...I chose shotokan because we've got two people in the studio who came over from shotokan and this is how they block), so naturally, the 18 inch motion is twice as fast. "To beat a motion, meet it." By the time you make the 36 inch motion, your opponent's punch is probably only travelling 12 inches, if its a jab, and you've already been hit, because you have to travel three times as far. If you execute the kenpo inward block, travelling only 18 inches while stepping offline, you have a really good chance of not getting hit.
I'm sure the GoldenDragon or another kenpo black belt can explain it better than I, but I tried.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
And that's what I get for sticking my 2 cents worth where it wasn't asked for.
I think the mental speed makes a big difference. Often it seems like the high-ranked martial artists I watch don't move so much faster as a.) sooner and b.) more directly, as mentioned in this thread. They know where they're going and they go straight there.
I see it in karate too--some do the wide blocks as mentioned, others only practice that way to practice and develop the full range of motion but then use whatever subunit of that motion they need in application.
I see it in karate too--some do the wide blocks as mentioned, others only practice that way to practice and develop the full range of motion but then use whatever subunit of that motion they need in application.
Perceptual speed intrigues me.
I tend to agree with arnisador. I thing perceptual speed gives a much greater advantage. I think a percieved attack and understanding the aggresive attack will let the experienced martial artist move and strike together. Therfore seeming to be much faster.
maybe
JD
I tend to agree with arnisador. I thing perceptual speed gives a much greater advantage. I think a percieved attack and understanding the aggresive attack will let the experienced martial artist move and strike together. Therfore seeming to be much faster.
maybe
JD
OP
Elfan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
Dude I liked your responce. I was just adding a subtle diference that *I* make and wanted to see what others though of it. Please throw in as many 2 cent bits as you can/want. It was making this discusion very interesting.
OP
brianhunter
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #40
I think a lot of people fail to see that we have several things already in the system and for a reason...we might not know the reason when we are learning it but later it should fall into place! Muscle memory and practice is where it is at using sound kenpo principles.
Good point sir, I wish more people pushed that view from time to time.
