Clutching Feathers

[phoenix]

Hi all. I have really enjoyed the more 'technical' information that has been posted here. Great stuff.

I don't have a manual handy, and don't feel like typing out a move-for-move analysis of Clutching Feathers. My question is more of the application/situation surrounding the attack. I have heard numerous kenpo students and instructors play down the significance or likelihood of a frontal hair grab. I have often posed to my students more of a situational grab.

Say, for example, that you were caught off guard with a punch that doubled you over, or dropped you back to your knees. The thug who attacked you now does what he's seen in some action movie...grabs your hair to pick you up to keep pounding on you, or give you that finishing blow. Clutching Feathers (I think) works great as your attacker pulls you up, and you rise up into a neutral bow and execute the technique.

What do you think? Anyone have any other favorite applications for Clutching Feathers, other than you let somebody walk up to you, and you let them reach out towards your head and grab a handful of your hair?

Look forward to your responses. Thanks!

Sean

ps-any input from Brother John on this one?

 

[Brother John]

SURE....sure....
pick on the bald guy!

OK Master Carey, here's a take from one with a beautifully bald head..on top. What if the hair that they grab is NOT from the top (They'd be out of luck with me)... but rather from above the ear or back of the head. Options and limitations change.

Take for instance the 'bent over from a punch...then hair grabbed'
scenario that you posted. IF this is going to happen, they won't be grabbing your bangs, but hair further back or even from the base or your head in order to try to control it. Puts you facing down instead of forward...
Interesting huh?

Have to guess/suppose what his next move would be once he has grabbed, as a grab is a precursor to something else.. a set up. From this down facing position he could:

• Use your hair as a brace for a strike coming from the side or below.

There's more I guess, but these come to mind first.
Other than these maybe they will use the handfull to try to grapple you down.

NOW what???
anyone?
anyone?

anyone???

Your Brother
John

PS: gimme a call some time Sean.
:asian:

 

[Brother John]

* The guy could attack your kneck from above (downward elbow, hammerfist, knife hand..etc.) trying to knock you down.



there...fixed it.

YB
J

 

[practiceisnotperfect]

I have been taught to grab the front of a person's hair. The front is where all of the nerves are. Also if you reach for the back you have extended your arm farther and exposed yourself to attack.

just my 2 cents anyway

 

[Brother John]

True, if we are going to grab hair as an attack (I can think of 50 other things to do with extending my hand toward their head than grab hair) then the nerves are in the front on top... my salvation!

BUT, recall that Mr. Carey and I posed that first, in our story, the person is bent forward at the waist due to some previous attack like a kick to the gut or testicles...
THEN a grab to the back or sides is every bit as easy as a grab to the front... if not easier and more tactical.


Your Brother
John
:wavey:

 

[phoenix]

I replied to this once, but it didn't show up, so sorry if this ends up appearing twice.

The intent of my post wasn't to discuss the 'where' of the grab, so much as how you got into the situation in the first place. Personally, I would hope that I would not let someone reach out and grab my hair. Especially when a hair grab could easily be redirected into a strike to the face.

The scenario I described was a possible circumstance where you may be able to use Clutching Feathers. I was interested in anyone else's thoughts on a situation where you may find yourself in a position to use this technique. Thanks!

Sean

 

[practiceisnotperfect]

I agree that a hair grab is a last resort attack. I would rather strike the throat or mastoid but it can be a effective controlling move if executed against the weaker foe

 

[c2kenpo]

Phoenix,
I think I understand your question.

What was the scenario that promted some obviously untrained person to try and grab your hair from the front?
Hopefully that will clear that up.

My scenario as it was taught to me and just one onter idea was

1) The attacker just is drunk and has no clue of his scenario and well you end up in it.
2) You could be bent over already and still do CF just remember to launch back a bit to get the attacker off balance and affect his/her (EOA Equal Opportunity Attacker) posture.
3)We even played with this in a chair scenario with the defender in the chair and the attacker grabbing to control the defender, this was a pretty good scenario.

Remember "pro" wrestling is quite popular and many people emulate what they see. Hair grabs seem big in that.
JMHO

C2

 

[phoenix]

Originally posted by c2kenpo

Phoenix,
I think I understand your question.

What was the scenario that promted some obviously untrained person to try and grab your hair from the front?
Hopefully that will clear that up.

My scenario as it was taught to me and just one onter idea was

1) The attacker just is drunk and has no clue of his scenario and well you end up in it.
2) You could be bent over already and still do CF just remember to launch back a bit to get the attacker off balance and affect his/her (EOA Equal Opportunity Attacker) posture.
3)We even played with this in a chair scenario with the defender in the chair and the attacker grabbing to control the defender, this was a pretty good scenario.

Remember "pro" wrestling is quite popular and many people emulate what they see. Hair grabs seem big in that.
JMHO

C2

Ah, definately more the direction I was heading...I think someone would just about have to be drunk to attempt this type of grab! And the pro wrestling comment was good. That's what I was referring to talking about you're bent over, and they use the hair grab to stand you back up. Thanks!

Sean

 

[c2kenpo]

Originally posted by phoenix

Ah, definately more the direction I was heading...I think someone would just about have to be drunk to attempt this type of grab! And the pro wrestling comment was good. That's what I was referring to talking about you're bent over, and they use the hair grab to stand you back up. Thanks!

Sean

Glad I could help.
We actually train that way, thinking in the reverse what the environment is, the situation, and how the heck did we end up in this position. I think that adding that idea to the techique when teaching it really allows the student to grasp "Why the @#$% am I doing this?" I find this especially works with adult students.

Would love to find out other scenarois on other techniques like that. I'll have to start that post!

Dave "C2" Gunzburg

 

[satans.barber]

Someone might grab your hair with the intention of slamming your head down into their knee as well? Sounds plausible...

Ian.

 

[M F]

SB, sounds like Locking Horns time to me.

Mr. Carey, this doesn't really address your question, but have you seen Mr. Jacobs take(one of many) on Clutching feathers? It involves a simple 6 count timing pattern. It is very nice for the person grabbing your hair and pulling you into a punch. It can be modified countless ways as well. It is a very different technique from the traditional CF, and was only brought up as an idea in a class a while back. I think he came up with it when someone asked him about the hair grab in a Women's self defense class that he used to teach. Also, have you seen many girl fights? This grab is very common. I have probably seen about five or six knock down drag out type fights between women, and I can't recall one where there wasn't a one handed hair grab to the top of front of the head. I guess that's enough babbling for now.

 

[Brother John]

That sounds really interesting!!! Maybe I'll have to try to corner Mr. Jacobs next time I'm at a Vegas Camp!
I usually try to anyway, just to gleen whatever insights I can from him anyway. He's on my list of seniors to nag and pester at the camps.
later..
Your Brother
John

 

[M F]

Brother John. I sent you a PM about this. I really like this version of the technique, even though it's not really clutching feathers.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by M F

SB, sounds like Locking Horns time to me.

Is Locking Horns not a right over left hammerlock choke? I'd find it hard to knee someone in the head with my arms in that position, where as with a single handed hair grab there's be nothing in the way...

Ian.

 

[M F]

S B,
In our manuals, Locking Horns is written as a front headlock. But, the first variation of that technique, that I learned, was against a two hand hair grab, pulling into a knee. When you said

Someone might grab your hair with the intention of slamming your head down into their knee as well?

, I pictured a two handed hair grab. Maybe a little miscommunication on my part.

 

[Seminerio]

I always thought of it as the attacker grabbing the hair with the left with the intention of clocking you with the right hand. This would facilitate the step back to create and angle of disturbance and the middle knuckle to the "armpit" to further check the attacker's width.

Obviously, the attacker isn't pulling you in yet, as then your step back would not be too usefull.

Cliff Seminerio

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by phoenix
Hi all. I have really enjoyed the more 'technical' information that has been posted here. Great stuff.

I don't have a manual handy, and don't feel like typing out a move-for-move analysis of Clutching Feathers. My question is more of the application/situation surrounding the attack. I have heard numerous kenpo students and instructors play down the significance or likelihood of a frontal hair grab. I have often posed to my students more of a situational grab.

Say, for example, that you were caught off guard with a punch that doubled you over, or dropped you back to your knees. The thug who attacked you now does what he's seen in some action movie...grabs your hair to pick you up to keep pounding on you, or give you that finishing blow. Clutching Feathers (I think) works great as your attacker pulls you up, and you rise up into a neutral bow and execute the technique.

What do you think? Anyone have any other favorite applications for Clutching Feathers, other than you let somebody walk up to you, and you let them reach out towards your head and grab a handful of your hair?

Look forward to your responses. Thanks!

Sean

ps-any input from Brother John on this one?

From reading the string, I find it interesting that so many would find a simple frontal hair grab an anomalous assault, but so readily accept a frontal lapel or wrist lock seize. They obviously don't all share equal probilities, but each assault much be examined not only from a mechanical perspective but a psychological one as well. The intent of your attacker will always dictate the true circumstances of your necessary response.

When I was first taught this technique in the "dark ages," Mr. Parker spoke of it being weighted toward the female gender in as much that women seem to grab hair more than men (at the time), fighting mostly open handed by pulling, scratching, and biting. thus the term "cat fight". Incidentently, it has been my experience although that may have been true at one time, I think contemporary women fight much differently and closer to men.

At any rate the issue of the frontal hair seize assault is probably more serious than perceived. Later on in my own studies Mr. Parker stressed how an experienced fighter would distract than seize for the expressed purposes of grabbing the hair. He explained and taught me that a simple hair grab by the knowledgeable, attacks nerves in the scalp/head through a specific methodology of fulcruming and will drop you with significant control and a minimum of resistance through a "cervical lock" created by the nerve assult.

This assault methodology requires a specific response to nullify the attackers action, otherwise, as He said, "You are toast."

For those who wonder why on many techniques this information is absent (above the obvious ones I have already discussed in the past), before the "defense" for this assault can be taught, the student must be taught the "offense." and much like the wrist locks and other manipulation type attacks, they were ommitted from commercial applications because they are knowledge and labor intensive.

 

[Michael Billings]

Unfortunatly I have seen hair grab attacks actually used in at least 2 situations. In one, my friend (male) was on the floor and the attacker above him. As they rolled around the good guy had his hair grabbed and ends up on top and the bad guy is holding him off by the hair. keeping him from effectively completing the restraint. Fortunatly others were there who assisted ... to my friend's dismay, they assisted by pulling the opponent's hand off, along with a handful of his hair. We are talking bloody scalp, then shaved head, and dew rags - before they were popular. :rofl: Clutching Feathers would have worked, as we have practiced it from a prone, sitting, and the ideal, standing positions. (Unfortunatly, I was busy keeping someone else out of the fight and could not assist in pinning the opponent's hand to my friend's head until the grip could be released.)

Second scenario was a head being banged against a tree, then holding the hair and punching with the other hand. IT DOES HAPPEN! There are lots and lots of practical self-defense moves in a number of systems against this attack. That indicates that it is salient and advisable to learn some hair grab defenses and releases.

Doc Chapel alluded to "cat fights" as possibly being the origin of this technique, which well may be the case. I think a more probable scenario to present to my students, is that it is more likely that a male would attack, or try to control, a female by grabbing her hair. I saw this consistantly in family violence or domestic disturbance calls, where the man was exerting physical control by yanking his significant other around by the hair, or banging her into the wall or floor. They also held them down on the bed by their hair and hit or molested with the other hand. Following this line of thought then, is that a male rapist may drag someone away by the hair. I am thinking of a female or child victim. (We are talking Neandrathal or early Cro-Magnon - Don't laugh, I have met some.)

My favorite, utilize your own forehead or temporal bone as the pressure on the end of a lever, create the fulcrum by anchoring the opponent's wrist to your own head, and find the correct angle to apply pressure to the carpals (wrist bones), the lever being the hand between heel of palm and fingertips. The opponent is usually up on their toes before you get to execute the middle knuckle strike. There are several other pressure point in the hand, wrist, forearm, under the elbow, brachio-radialis that cause an immediate pain check and prevent their opposite hand from striking. Once again, the techniques were created with a purpose ... as the years passed, Mr. Parker modified, inserted, and deleted techniques after applying a critical, logical, analysis of motion and responses. If he did not think it was important, my thought is that he would have deleted it.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[kenpo3631]

My favorite, utilize your own forehead or temporal bone as the pressure on the end of a lever, create the fulcrum by anchoring the opponent's wrist to your own head, and find the correct angle to apply pressure to the carpals (wrist bones), the lever being the hand between heel of palm and fingertips. The opponent is usually up on their toes before you get to execute the middle knuckle strike. There are several other pressure point in the hand, wrist, forearm, under the elbow, brachio-radialis that cause an immediate pain check and prevent their opposite hand from striking. Once again, the techniques were created with a purpose ... as the years passed, Mr. Parker modified, inserted, and deleted techniques after applying a critical, logical, analysis of motion and responses. If he did not think it was important, my thought is that he would have deleted it.

Personally I like to trap at the fingers. I feel that trapping the wrist, although it will definitely pin the opponents hand, allows for too much play in the fingers allowing the assailant to still grasp your hair. There are however many ways to skin a cat...

Doc Chapel alluded to "cat fights" as possibly being the origin of this technique, which well may be the case. I think a more probable scenario to present to my students, is that it is more likely that a male would attack, or try to control, a female by grabbing her hair. I saw this consistantly in family violence or domestic disturbance calls, where the man was exerting physical control by yanking his significant other around by the hair, or banging her into the wall or floor. They also held them down on the bed by their hair and hit or molested with the other hand. Following this line of thought then, is that a male rapist may drag someone away by the hair. I am thinking of a female or child victim. (We are talking Neandrathal or early Cro-Magnon - Don't laugh, I have met some.)

I too have seen this working in the EMS field. This type of attack isn't that uncommon ~ good point Mr. Billings