Good training or just stupid?

[ATC]

Most of you have seen this already but I thought I would post anyway to get everyone's take on this. Is this to brutal for training or what is needed to produce the best fighters? Seems a bit extreme to me and a good way to really get hurt. There seems to be no doctors in house and being concussed could lead to some serious brain injuries. Good training or just stupid?

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[Dirty Dog]

Seems stupid to me.

If you're training for a sport, then train for it. WTF rules stipulate headgear, so I don't see any advantage to sparring without it.

Even professional boxers, who train for knockouts, wear headgear when they're sparring.

Getting hurt MORE in training than in competition just makes no sense to me.

Edit: Added a couple additional thoughts.

Having a Dr in the house wouldn't make any difference. Both those people have concussions, by definition.

From a self defense standpoint, I can see the arguement that you do need to, at least once in your life, go full contact without protective gear simply to learn how to absorb impacts and fight through them. I've seen TONS of beginners drop like a sack of potatoes after a light hit, simply because they have never been hit and have no idea how to deal with it. But as a routine part of your training? Idiotic.

 

[Gorilla]

Adults training how they want...OK....not very smart though...defense not their strong point! You might want to put your hands up...not a good guard for this situation...fighter can just sit on the head kick if it is not competition. They are not trying to win just trying to KO the guy....

 

[StudentCarl]

With a knockout there are often two head impacts--the first with whatever causes the knockout and the second when the head hits the floor. Even conceding that it's important for competitive athletes to train some with full power to the head, there's no excuse for making the first impact worse due to less padding and also neglecting to give any protection at all from the second impact.

It's not hardcore to fail to use modern safety equipment--it's stupid. The risks outweigh any benefits. By the way, what are the benefits to training with no headgear? I can't think of any. I don't like getting kicked hard in the head even with headgear, so I'm not buying any argument saying that headgear makes one complacent.

 

[Flying Crane]

If this is typical of how they train and not some kind of anomaly, then it's stupid. Well, it's stupid regardless, even if it's an anomaly. Oh, and the monkey screaming is stupid too.

 

[Carol]

So they protect their chest and not their head?

Oh hello, Darwin.....

 

[Cyriacus]

In my opinion, for what theyre doing its pointless. If youre taking a self defense class (regardless of style), taking a thump to the head can be beneficial to getting you used to it, but i dont see much point to this format.

 

[Dirty Dog]

With a knockout there are often two head impacts--the first with whatever causes the knockout and the second when the head hits the floor. Even conceding that it's important for competitive athletes to train some with full power to the head, there's no excuse for making the first impact worse due to less padding and also neglecting to give any protection at all from the second impact.

It's not hardcore to fail to use modern safety equipment--it's stupid. The risks outweigh any benefits. By the way, what are the benefits to training with no headgear? I can't think of any. I don't like getting kicked hard in the head even with headgear, so I'm not buying any argument saying that headgear makes one complacent.

Actually, there are at least four. The initial impact, plus the brain rebounding and impacting the other side of the head. Then the head hitting the floor and the brain AGAIN rebounding to the other side.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Fortunately they had their guard down by their waists where it belongs.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gorilla]

Gets worse every time I watch it...was that guy blind....

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

one word for this: stupid. That is all.

 

[andyjeffries]

The kicker was wearing red foot boots, is this not the same as ITF where ITD Taekwon-do players wear foot boots and no head guards? He didn't land the kick full power, it just caught the guy well, so again given that everyone who says "if you think ITF sparring is not hard-contact, you obviously have never done it", is this any different?

 

[Uncle]

If they were wearing headgear, okay, going at that level of contact with safeguards in place is fine. Getting knocked down or stunned in training is okay eve. Booting people in the bare noggin on a regular basis and knocking them right out is asking for an invitation to the low IQ club. Martial arts training is dangerous enough. We don't need Darwin award candidates making it worse.

 

[Buka]

So they protect their chest and not their head?

Oh hello, Darwin.....

Priceless.

 

[StudentCarl]

Actually, there are at least four. The initial impact, plus the brain rebounding and impacting the other side of the head. Then the head hitting the floor and the brain AGAIN rebounding to the other side.

Agreed, but the brain rebounds are proportional to and dependent on the two exterior impacts, and helmets reduce the speed of those impacts.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think it's a class where you learn to block with your face.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The kicker was wearing red foot boots, is this not the same as ITF where ITD Taekwon-do players wear foot boots and no head guards?

Actually, they were not. Both fighters appear to be wearing shin/instep guards which are generally thinner than safety boots. They (shin/instep guards) are mostly good for protecting your shin when clashing with another fighter while you are both trying to kick and protecting your own instep when kicking if you get hit by someone's elbow. They do offer some protection for the person you're kicking, but not as much as the boots do. It's like the guy who is wearing one safety punch. I imagine that's more to protect his hand rather than his opponent since they are both wearing hogu (and he's only wearing a single hand pad, not two).

He didn't land the kick full power, it just caught the guy well,

There were two KO's in the clip. The first at approximately 0:11 and the second at 1:17, so I am unsure which person you mean. Unless you mean both were just lucky kicks. But that seems unlikely to me. In the first KO the guy drops like a sack of potatoes. Straight down. That, to me, indicates either the guy who got kicked has a glass jaw or the kick was full power. It really looked like he may've been out as he fell. The kick at 1:17 looks like it hit the other person in the face or possibly the throat (hard to tell which one). Again it results in a knock down, this time with the person in question being unable to rise for over half a minute (indeed, the video ends with him still on the floor). If that isn't the result of a full power kick then the guy also has a propensity to be KO'd by less than full power kicks.

so again given that everyone who says "if you think ITF sparring is not hard-contact, you obviously have never done it", is this any different?

The video ATC posted is a training session, not a World Championship level match. In ITF tournaments the level of contact isn't designed to be "full contact" and a fighter can actually be disqualified for knocking his opponent out. The WTF specifically designates KO'ing a person as a means to winning a match. Granted the level of contact increases as the level of the tournament gets higher but the difference between an ITF WC match and the video in question seems clear to me.

I don't see why you're asking your question, though. The WTF designed its sparring events to develop full contact fighters. I've read many posts by people saying that their system of sparring is great for developing such fighters as well as skills necessary for self-defense, including having one's guard down. Do you not think the fighters in the video are demonstrating those skills (even though both head kicks resulted in knock downs while their hands were low)?

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

Actually, they were not. Both fighters appear to be wearing shin/instep guards which are generally thinner than safety boots.

I'll take your word for it. They looked thicker than the instep protectors we wear...

There were two KO's in the clip. The first at approximately 0:11 and the second at 1:17, so I am unsure which person you mean. Unless you mean both were just lucky kicks. But that seems unlikely to me. In the first KO the guy drops like a sack of potatoes. Straight down. That, to me, indicates either the guy who got kicked has a glass jaw or the kick was full power.

Ahh I only saw the first one (I didn't watch all the way through as I assumed the discussion was about the first one). It didn't look full power. He didn't throw it with anger, putting his weight behind the kick. I don't think the guy had a glass jaw either. I think it was just a normal kick that caught him right on the chin.

The video ATC posted is a training session, not a World Championship level match. In ITF tournaments the level of contact isn't designed to be "full contact" and a fighter can actually be disqualified for knocking his opponent out. The WTF specifically designates KO'ing a person as a means to winning a match. Granted the level of contact increases as the level of the tournament gets higher but the difference between an ITF WC match and the video in question seems clear to me.

That's surprising because every time I've raised the disqualification for knock-outs in ITF competition, ITFers go posting about how it's still hard contact. You have even previously wrote "I know people who have both refereed and fought at the WC's. You'd have to do some serious damage to your opponent in order to get DQ'd for "heavy" contact.".

Another thread about it:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4589.html

I don't see why you're asking your question, though.

Because the complaints seem to be centred around not wearing head gear and how bad this is. Given that the other branch of TKD does not wear head gear and the kick didn't seem to be 100% power, I wondered what the complaints were about.

The WTF designed its sparring events to develop full contact fighters.

It did, but remember recently it's reduced the contact required to the head. Initially I thought this was to improve the public's perception of the fights as it's easier to score for a touch than a subjective amount of contact. However, the WTF recently posted it's medical report and claimed it's one of the safest contact sports in the Olympics due to the low risk of injury and knockouts due to the new rules.

I've read many posts by people saying that their system of sparring is great for developing such fighters as well as skills necessary for self-defense, including having one's guard down. Do you not think the fighters in the video are demonstrating those skills (even though both head kicks resulted in knock downs while their hands were low)?

I don't think they had great head movement ;-)

There have been plenty of knockouts by kicks to the head across martial arts where the hands were either up at the time or generally down. I don't think it's as big a deal as non-WTFers make it out to be. For example most of the kicks in this video the opponents have their guard up:

Cheers,


Andy

 

[Gorilla]

Looked like a full power kick to me...it was short and quick but full power !

 

[chrispillertkd]

Ahh I only saw the first one (I didn't watch all the way through as I assumed the discussion was about the first one). It didn't look full power. He didn't throw it with anger, putting his weight behind the kick. I don't think the guy had a glass jaw either. I think it was just a normal kick that caught him right on the chin.

You don't have to throw a kick "in anger" for it to be full contact. As for not putting your full weight behind it, people have made the point that whipping your kicks rather than thrusting with the hip is a good way to generate full power, so I don't know if that would really apply either. If he didn't have a glass jaw I certainly don't see it as a normal kick that just happened to catch him on the chin. Not with the kind of reaction he had.

That's surprising because every time I've raised the disqualification for knock-outs in ITF competition, ITFers go posting about how it's still hard contact. You have even previously wrote "I know people who have both refereed and fought at the WC's. You'd have to do some serious damage to your opponent in order to get DQ'd for "heavy" contact.".

At the WC's it does have to be very hard contact to get disqualified. The ITF rules as written don't allow for KO's as a way to win a match. If one occurs it's up to the referee to determine who is responsible. If it was the person kicking or punching then they should be disqualified. If the person getting KO'ed is at fault, say for not having their hands up and getting hit with a bandae tollyo chagi, and cannot continue the match then they would be eliminated. The WTF, on the other hand, recognizes knock outs as a legitimate way to win a match. That's a pretty obvious difference.

Also, please note, I was referring to an ITF World Chamionship match. The video ATC posted clearly was in no way equivalent to that.

Because the complaints seem to be centred around not wearing head gear and how bad this is. Given that the other branch of TKD does not wear head gear and the kick didn't seem to be 100% power, I wondered what the complaints were about.

Probably for a variety of reasons. Having two knock outs in what appears to be a sparing match in a class, not a tournament. I think someone already mentioned that boxers can KO opponents during competitions but certainly don't do so when simply working with a sparring partner because it can be dangerous. The video that is posted has two examples of KO's as a result of sparring practice. ATC asked if people thought this was a good manner in which to train. Obviously people think it is not. Also, and as I mentioned, both fighters do a great job of holding their guards down by their waists. Contra posts here on MT saying that such a guard allows for proficient defense against head kicks both fighters get kicked in the head and KO'ed.

It did, but remember recently it's reduced the contact required to the head. Initially I thought this was to improve the public's perception of the fights as it's easier to score for a touch than a subjective amount of contact. However, the WTF recently posted it's medical report and claimed it's one of the safest contact sports in the Olympics due to the low risk of injury and knockouts due to the new rules.

Have they also re-written their rules stating that knocking someone out will result in disqualification? Because if they haven't then they're simply saying you don't have to kick someone full force in the head to score a point, but you can, and if you do and it results in a KO then you still win. Now, I don't doubt people are going to have less full contact kicks to the head as a result of the rule change, but it's a mixed signal nonetheless, especially since you still have to hit full contact to the body to get a point.

I don't think they had great head movement ;-)

What are you talking about. Both of them had great head movement. They got kick, their head moved all the way to the floor and did a nice little bounce on the mats.

Oh, you mean a defensive head movement so they wouldn't get kicked in the face in the first place. Yeah, I'd agree to that. Of course since their hands were down by their waists the whole time they could've just raised them up a bit for actual protection. Meh. I'm sure people will just bring up more elite level fighters as examples of how anyone can fight with their hands down and still be awesome. And yes, people like Prince Naseem can fight like that. But 99% of us aren't him. And neither were those guys who were kicking each other in the head.

But I digress.

There have been plenty of knockouts by kicks to the head across martial arts where the hands were either up at the time or generally down. I don't think it's as big a deal as non-WTFers make it out to be. For example most of the kicks in this video the opponents have their guard up:

I think you're really missing the point. The video wasn't a kickboxing match or a WTF WC match. It was a sparring match that wasn't even in a local tournament. ATC asked is "this to [sic] brutal for training or what is needed to produce the best fighters? Seems a bit extreme to me and a good way to really get hurt." It looks like most people do not think it is a good way to train. You apparently think it is OK based on your assertion that the kicks aren't reallt full contact. Given the video I don't think that's an accurate assessment, but you're certainly free to believe it.

Pax,

Chris