Good demo
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PiedmontChun
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(I generally only sniff around here in the early am.)
Good demo. I see around :48 mark, PB ends up in a Tan Da type movement. Now, I don't raise that observation to get anyone's knickers in a twist, but genuinely am curious and would love to hear how WSLPBVT guys explain what is going on here and what it is training.
What I see here, is when the partner gives presssure to PB's left arm, PB deflects to the outside via his Tan, while keeping his angle / vector focused right on the centerline (good, no chasing hands, left hand is ready to attack). There iss also a certain passiveness to the Tan, meaning there is forward pressure directed toward the training partner, but he is giving or yielding, while keeping the elbow in ideal position. That is what I see, because the WT I've done emphasizes all the points above. We don't Tan for the sake of doing Tan, we allow our arm to form Tan by focusing on the elbow and the forward pressure along the vector between our center and opponent's center. PB seems to be showing not a "here, do this" type of 1,2 application, but rather a natural progression of dealing with the force and angles he is being given.
No passively formed taan-sau happening at all.
They are basically working with paak-da and jat-da, and recycling man-wu.
When his man was interrupted by paak-da it recovered to wu, maintaining his space, and immediately converted to jat-da. This is more clearly seen when he uses his other hand @2:19.
What you are looking at is this being broken down slowly. At speed, you don't see this. There's no time for passiveness at high speeds. If you keep trying to just redirect arms with your passively formed taan-sau you'll get hit.
At speed, jat-da disrupts their structure while immediately counterpunching. The key is aggressive countering to put the opponent in recovery mode.
They are basically working with paak-da and jat-da, and recycling man-wu.
When his man was interrupted by paak-da it recovered to wu, maintaining his space, and immediately converted to jat-da. This is more clearly seen when he uses his other hand @2:19.
What you are looking at is this being broken down slowly. At speed, you don't see this. There's no time for passiveness at high speeds. If you keep trying to just redirect arms with your passively formed taan-sau you'll get hit.
At speed, jat-da disrupts their structure while immediately counterpunching. The key is aggressive countering to put the opponent in recovery mode.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Looks like Wing Chun to me.
PiedmontChun
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So as his left arm is pak'd, there is no degree to which he is being passive and allowing his taan to be formed as a response? Is he actively executing or premeditating the "taan" action? What if the punch were to hook toward the face versus follow a straight path or the punch move in such a way that the taan action no longer protects? What if the punch were to be a feint, or retreat quickly where the taan needs to transition quickly back into a punch?
I suppose my persnickety questions lead to a larger question then; is this a drill to train specific responses, or is this teaching directly related to application?
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PiedmontChun
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There's no taan sau? Like, phsycially there is no taan sau here, or in an abstract sense there is no taan sau? Is it like the Matrix, as in... there is no spoon? [Sorry for those that don't get the reference].
Maybe I'll go get my eyes checked since I thought I clearly see a taan sau at 0:48.
Maybe I'll go get my eyes checked since I thought I clearly see a taan sau at 0:48.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Not only do I get the reference, but I was thinking it before you typed it.
It has already been explained to you. VT doesn't do taan-sau like WT, and there is no such passively formed taan-sau action in this clip. "Taan" is only a striking concept.
What you are looking at is PB breaking down what his student just did a moment before. Look from :22-:23. It is paak-da to his man which counters with jat-da from a recovered wu.
I guess you are not seeing this because PB doesn't have a hand on that side? Which is why I asked you to look at 2:19 where he does the other side and breaks it down into distinct parts. Wu is controlling space and immediately reacting with jat-da. At speed, all you will see is jat-da to continue an interrupted attack.
And no, this is not a choreographed fight. They are developing reflexes for cycling man-wu in sustained attack.
What you are looking at is PB breaking down what his student just did a moment before. Look from :22-:23. It is paak-da to his man which counters with jat-da from a recovered wu.
I guess you are not seeing this because PB doesn't have a hand on that side? Which is why I asked you to look at 2:19 where he does the other side and breaks it down into distinct parts. Wu is controlling space and immediately reacting with jat-da. At speed, all you will see is jat-da to continue an interrupted attack.
And no, this is not a choreographed fight. They are developing reflexes for cycling man-wu in sustained attack.
PiedmontChun
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I fully understand that is not choreographed.
I had to watch it a dozen more times. Without a hand there, early on it looks like a taan sau - protecting, but not actively shocking the partner's arm to clear the way.
@2:22, his jat looks very much how I was taught to lop in WT - downward and across the opponent's body to disrupt them.
I had to watch it a dozen more times. Without a hand there, early on it looks like a taan sau - protecting, but not actively shocking the partner's arm to clear the way.
@2:22, his jat looks very much how I was taught to lop in WT - downward and across the opponent's body to disrupt them.
Would be rather odd, wouldn't it? If they were doing jat-da back and forth the whole time, then he suddenly threw in a random taan-sau to confuse his students whom he's taught that VT doesn't function that way. There's no "wedging principle" in VT.
With no hand, his left can't shock the partner the way the right does, but at speed the arm is enough to affect their structure and facing and open the line for his punch, which is what jat-sau is for.
With no hand, his left can't shock the partner the way the right does, but at speed the arm is enough to affect their structure and facing and open the line for his punch, which is what jat-sau is for.
