Going to look at a new Dojo

[ballen0351]

Im going to check out an Aikido Dojo this week. Im thinking of take a few classes to add to my Goju. Anything I should be on the look out for? I dont know much about Aikido other then what I have read on here.

It website says its ranks are recognized by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and the International Aikido Federation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Im going to check out an Aikido Dojo this week. Im thinking of take a few classes to add to my Goju. Anything I should be on the look out for? I dont know much about Aikido other then what I have read on here.

It website says its ranks are recognized by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and the International Aikido Federation.

No, but I hope if you decide to take some classes you let us know what it's like. I'm interested in your perspective.

 

[dancingalone]

Im going to check out an Aikido Dojo this week. Im thinking of take a few classes to add to my Goju. Anything I should be on the look out for? I dont know much about Aikido other then what I have read on here.

It website says its ranks are recognized by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and the International Aikido Federation.

Try to see how rigorous the practice is with the higher ranks. Do they start offering a little more resistance or does uke still willingly fall all the time on techniques that they should have a good grasp of by now. Please note that It can be hard to tell student ranks since many aikido dojo use white belts only (maybe brown too) along with black belts but at a certain point, usually brown-black belt if not from the onset, students start wearing hakama which covers the obi.

You should also ask when students start randori (usually not for a good while) and how frequent it's done if this is an area of concern for you.

Good luck. There's a couple of us here at MT who practice both Goju-ryu and Aikido, and we'll be happy to chat about our experiences.

 

[K-man]

Im going to check out an Aikido Dojo this week. Im thinking of take a few classes to add to my Goju. Anything I should be on the look out for? I dont know much about Aikido other then what I have read on here.

It website says its ranks are recognized by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and the International Aikido Federation.

Let me begin by saying I love aikido and I'm enjoying my training, but most aikido I have come across though is a bit 'suspect'. If I were going to any new school I would be watching them taking ukemi to see if everyone is just taking a dive or whether any of the more advanced guys are actually controlling and moving their uke. Then, and most important, I would be asking the head instructor to demonstrate, on you, techniques where you are resisting. If he says, "we don't do that", or "in aikido we learn not to resist" or any similar response, thank him and look for the next place.

When I visited NY about 3-4 years ago, I visited Aikikai Hombu, and was totally disenchanted. Techniques being demonstrated by Yamada Sensei were fine but when his seniors were teaching lower grades they were way below the standard I was expecting.

Personally I would be looking for a school that teaches in the style of Koichi Tohei. See if you can find Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido.

As to Aikido and Goju, it's a marriage made in heaven. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Try to see how rigorous the practice is with the higher ranks. Do they start offering a little more resistance or does uke still willingly fall all the time on techniques that they should have a good grasp of by now. Please note that It can be hard to tell student ranks since many aikido dojo use white belts only (maybe brown too) along with black belts but at a certain point, usually brown-black belt if not from the onset, students start wearing hakama which covers the obi.

Thats one of the things Ive been reading about the lack of resistance so I will def look for that

You should also ask when students start randori (usually not for a good while) and how frequent it's done if this is an area of concern for you.

Looking at the grading requirements they dont test randori until 2nd Kyu so if they start before that they dont look like its a testing requirement:

5th Kyu (60 practice days) Shomenuchi Ikkyo (omote/ura) Shomenuchi Iriminage Katatetori Shihonage (omote/ura) Ryotetori Tenchinage Tsuki Kotegaeshi Ushiro Tekubitori Kotegaeshi Morotetori Kokyuho		4th Kyu (80 practice days) Shomenuchi Nikkyo (omote/ura) Yokomenuchi Shihonage (omote/ura) Tsuki Iriminage Ushiro Tekubi Sankyo (omote/ura) Ushiro Ryokatatori Kotegaeshi Suwari Waza: • Shomenuchi Ikkyo • Katatori Nikkyo (omote/ura) • Katatori Sankyo
3rd Kyu (100 practice days) Yokomenuchi Iriminage (two ways) Yokomenuchi Kotegaeshi Tsuki Kaitennage Ushiro Ryokatatori Sankyo (omote/ura) Morotetori Iriminage (two ways) Shomenuchi Sankyo (omote/ura) Suwari Waza: • Shomenuchi Iriminage • Shomenuchi Nikkyo (omote/ura) Hanmi-Handachi: • Katatetori Shihonage • Katatetori Kaitennage (uchi and soto mawari Tachitori & Jotori: Shomenuchi/Tsuki		2nd Kyu (200 practice days) Shomenuchi Shihonage Shomenuchi Kaitennage Yokomenuchi Gokyo Ushiro Tekubitori Shihonage Ushiro Tekubitori Jujinage Ushiro Kubishime Koshinage Morotetori Nikkyo Hanmi-Handachi: • Shomenuchi Iriminage • Katatetori Nikkyo • Yokomenuchi Kotegaeshic Tachitori & Jotori: Shomenuchi/Tsuki Randori - two people
1st Kyu (300 practice days) Katatori Menuchi - five techniques Yokomenuchi - five techniques Morotetori - five techniques Shomenuchi - five techniques Ryotetori - five techniques Koshinage - five techniques Tantotori Hanmi-Handachi (Ushiro Waza - five techniques) Tachitori & Jotori Randori - three people		Shodan (400 practice days) All 1st Kyu requirements Tachitori Jotori Henkawaza Randori - four people
Nidan (600 practice days) Attend two seminars per year after shodan All shodan requirements Tachitori - two people Freestyle - five people Kaeshiwaza		Sandan (700 practice days) Attend two seminars per year after nidan. Subject of exam to be determined by examiner at the time of the exam.

Good luck. There's a couple of us here at MT who practice both Goju-ryu and Aikido, and we'll be happy to chat about our experiences.

Thanks I look forward to asking many questions if I decide to start training there.

 

[Brian King]

If a person asked you about visiting a Goju school, what to look out for what would you tell them? I imagine that some will cross with an Aikido dojo. See how the students and teachers interact with each other, get a feel for the students, etc.


Disclaimer I do not do either Goju nor Aikido but spent a bunch of years in the Aiki arts and trained at an Aikido dojo most of those years (just not doing”Aikido” there). I also attended all but one (I think) of the Aiki expos that Stanley Pranin of Aikido Journal fame hosted.


Regarding resistance and effective attacks and defense I would purge if possible all your expectations. By going in under presuppositions you are framing your expectations and that will color your experience. Go in and enjoy yourself. See the common between the two arts and do not focus too much time on the differences, for now. If you wonder if a technique will work ask to feel it from some of the more experienced folks on the floor. Any technique can be resisted if it is done slowly and with prior knowledge of what is coming so brand new student coming in from another art and trying out a class might present an ethical problem for some. If the technique is too succeed when the new student is ‘resisting’ it might mean breaking the new student, some schools frown on this. Others not so much. In Aikido both the Uke and the Tori should be working and learning at the same time. What many consider 'resisting' is actually in my opinion just stupid practice. Hunkering down and ‘resisting’ leaves a person dangerously open to other attacks. Far better in my opinion to learn how to deal with defense/offensive work intelligently. Someone who is a knucklehead and just hunkers down is not really attacking anymore but rather just trying to ‘resist’ the technique and is easy to break but that is not the point of the training, if you get what I mean? It is not sparring per say and might feel different than what you are used to doing? (making an assumption on what you current do) They may have weapons work based on Kata, enjoy yourself. The flow from lock to lock and from throw to throw is really fun and a bit scary on the receiving side. Not sure of Goju falls and rolling and whether the Aikido rolls and falls will be different or not. There will likely be some warm up focusing on wrists, knees, and ankles. This is for a reason LOL.


Some schools really get into the philosophy others not so much, some schools really get in ki others not so much, some are getting into internal power others not so much. There can be huge differences between Aikido dojo’s even within individual organizations. If the classes are divided up with the beginners at a certain time then the advanced ask to be able to observe the advanced classes.


One of the other things to possibly consider is taking some private lessons with the instructor if you two seem to get along. All Aikido instructors can use the income and this might give you a chance to focus on the things you are hoping to pull out of the practice to include in your own skill sets and to get a chance to ‘taste’ the art. I think that practicing on many different ummm I mean with many different bodies will increase your ability to apply the throws and locks but sometimes a few privates helps to put things into perspective.


If I remember you are LEO? If so have the instructor work a bit handcuffing with you or at the minimum how to roll prone people on to their bellies and to ‘voluntarily’ bring out and back their free arm.


Good luck and have fun
Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[K-man]

.
Regarding resistance and effective attacks and defense I would purge if possible all your expectations. By going in under presuppositions you are framing your expectations and that will color your experience. Go in and enjoy yourself. See the common between the two arts and do not focus too much time on the differences, for now.

Depends on your reason for training. If you just want an experience, you can go to any dojo and learn 'Aikido'. Bearing in mind that if you intend making a commitment to aikido, it will be at least 5 years or more before an aikidoka is sufficiently trained to use those techniques if they have good instruction.

If you wonder if a technique will work ask to feel it from some of the more experienced folks on the floor.

That's exactly what I am suggesting. But just how are they going to make the technique work if you don't resist? Do you say "here's my hand put on sankyo"? That's my question to anyone that claims jujutsu or aikido skills. I'm not suggesting they use strength to put the lock on because aikido is meant to be soft. A good practitioner will apply sankyo without strength against resistance, Kote gaeshi the same.

Any technique can be resisted if it is done slowly and with prior knowledge of what is coming so brand new student coming in from another art and trying out a class might present an ethical problem for some.

Definitely not the case. That is exactly how we train all the time. Obviously when training with a new student we don't resist, but when it is our turn we ask then to resist. We don't crank on power to make the technique work. We work around their strength with softness. That is what I would want demonstrated before I was going to commit a large part of my free time to training.

If the technique is too succeed when the new student is ‘resisting’ it might mean breaking the new student, some schools frown on this. Others not so much.

We demonstrate effectiveness, not 'breaking'.

In Aikido both the Uke and the Tori should be working and learning at the same time. What many consider 'resisting' is actually in my opinion just stupid practice.

I agree with the first part but I must disagree with your opinion that resisting is 'stupid practice'.

Hunkering down and ‘resisting’ leaves a person dangerously open to other attacks.

How can that be when you are practising one technique. Oh! This isn't working. I'll give him a smack in the mouth? No, if someone is hunkering down, I need to work out how to get around that strength. That's what aikido is meant to do.

Far better in my opinion to learn how to deal with defense/offensive work intelligently.

Exactly.

Someone who is a knucklehead and just hunkers down is not really attacking anymore but rather just trying to ‘resist’ the technique and is easy to break but that is not the point of the training, if you get what I mean?

Not easy to break. We don't break anything. And, I don't get what you mean. (apart from you calling me a knucklehead)

It is not sparring per say and might feel different than what you are used to doing? (making an assumption on what you current do)

I'm not talking about randori. That is totally different and we don't resist that at all.

They may have weapons work based on Kata, enjoy yourself. The flow from lock to lock and from throw to throw is really fun and a bit scary on the receiving side.

Scary? Why?

Not sure of Goju falls and rolling and whether the Aikido rolls and falls will be different or not.

Just the same.

There will likely be some warm up focusing on wrists, knees, and ankles. This is for a reason LOL.

I assume that as I am the only person suggesting resistance, I must be the 'knucklehead' you are talking about. Not nice seeing you have never trained with me. :asian:

 

[Jenna]

Im going to check out an Aikido Dojo this week. Im thinking of take a few classes to add to my Goju. Anything I should be on the look out for? I dont know much about Aikido other then what I have read on here.

It website says its ranks are recognized by Aikikai Hombu Dojo and the International Aikido Federation.

All very salient points above. I would not add anything much.. You know already that you will only truly appreciate if it is right for you by getting in there and doing it.

As Brian has said, please do not focus your thoughts on resistance. In many cases it is a misnomer or misconception touted by those that do not practice Aikido in any form.
Some of your Goju practices will be alien in an Aikido dojo and but many will correspond unbelievably well. As with any new start, as long as your mind is focussed on open learning and open practice of Aikido as a new Aikido-ka and NOT as a well-versed and adept Karate-ka, then you will enjoy a new skill that will complement your Goju and bring an added depth to your martial arts overall I wish you well.. Please let us know how you get along. Wishes

 

[K-man]

To both Jenna and Brian, if I was visiting an Aikikai dojo, you would not pick my aikido as different to any other student. I would do all the expected ukemi and go along with all the techniques. However, if I was going to train in that dojo long term I would want to know that my instructors can make their techniques work.

Now, I train my aikido and I love it. But I have to go back to my hard nosed karate mates and a lot of them have questioning thoughts about the effectiveness of aikido. They don't do fancy rolls and they don't go along with a take down to make it look good. If I can't take a knife from them, they won't give it up. They give most aikido guys a real hard time. My aikido works. My guys can try as hard as they like to do things to me, my aikido skills give me the edge every time. It is pressure tested. ballen is in the same position. He is going to have to pit his skills obtained from aikido against the men he trains with Goju. I am trying to make sure that he picks a school that will not leave him disappointed. :asian:

 

[Brian King]

K-man wrote:

"I assume that as I am the only person suggesting resistance, I must be the 'knucklehead' you are talking about. Not nice seeing you have never trained with me."

Ah, sorry to disappoint K-man but neither you or your post were in my thoughts when I crafted my reply but rather what Ballen0351 wrote

"Thats one of the things Ive been reading about the lack of resistance so I will def look for that."

My apologies as I should have quoted him. You're right that I have not yet trained with you and I AM sorry. My haste and poor writing allowed you to take the post as some kind of attack on you and obviously your dojo even though I have not yet trained with you or at your dojo, I am sure that it is a reflection of my writing skills and communication skills.

One thing that I might suggest, a trick that has contributed to my reading of on-line communications is that I remind myself that thoughts are not things. They are models. And while truth is always truth it might not always be truth. An example, Bob Hubbard owns and runs Martial Talk. This is truth today and maybe even tomorrow but twenty years ago not so, fifty years from now who knows?

Between people who practice Aiki arts we could probably have a discussion within the communication that is the Uke and Tori training methodology (although I feel bit silly using Japanese terms if truth be told) on the what is 'resistance'. We would first have to define what resistance is, what's its purpose, and how does it manifest, and when is it good and when is it harmful. Perhaps topic for another thread not this one as it would be off topic as this thread is a practitioner from one art going to an Aikido school. My post was an attempt to keep Ballon0351 from being that knucklehead who purposely challenges the Sensei by giving what he might mistakenly think is good 'resistance' and getting tossed harder or faster than what he is physically or mentally prepared for. I have no idea really of the skill level of the person he will resist with and not all will try to go around the detour sign that he puts up, they might rather look at it as a speed bump or a yellow caution light (in the US our traffic lights go from green to yellow to red. The yellow is meant to start slowing down as the light will be turning to red but many drivers look at the yellow light as a hurry up the light is about to change signal and go faster) I do not have any idea of Goju other than wikipedia said something about hard and soft and is from Okinawa. I do not know if his wrists have been cranked thousands of times or not, do not know if he can take falls ahead of the breaks or not even if Goju has those elements with-in the practice. So I posted as if he did not. If he does have those survival skills then that portion of my advice to him would be unnecessary and of course safely ignored.

My understanding of the Japanese training methodology is that Uke attacks and Tori defends (or did I get that backward?) although during the techniques uke might well be defending while still trying to attack and tori will be attacking while still trying to defend. One might start with one attack and flow to two or three other types of attack trying to get to the others center or occupy space the same as one might defend with a throw but end up doing a variation or even a completely different throw or strike. The idea is that both are learning defense and attack at the same moment. One should not wasting their time waiting for their turn 'to defend' but should be learning how to attack. Does that make sense? Static lock exploration is similar but different as the goal is understanding the lock rather than using the lock to gain center. Not sure if Goju has the same methodology or not.

K-man wrote:

"We demonstrate effectiveness, not 'breaking'."

That is good training and speaks well for your school and your level of training. But my friend this thread is Ballon0351 going to an Aikido school near his home not a thread on how K-man and his mates train. It sounds like great training and very worthwhile but I think you must admit, that while they should, not all Aikido-ka train thus. Advising a person that has zero experience in Aikido, perhaps zero experience with locks and falls to resist while not knowing anything about the instructor or student that he is going to resist on is dangerous in my opinion. Far better to say something like resist to your ability to safely resist I think but even that makes assumptions with zero first hand experience as to Ballon0351's experience and abilities and zero experience or knowledge of the dojo he will be visiting. Far too many assumptions in my opinion. I do not know if Ballon0351 even knows how to tap out LOL.

Again my apologies K-man. I meant no intentional offense to you or your school and hope that you can look past my writing style and that as a person with Aikido experience and apparently knowledge of Goju can build on the advice given to Ballon0351 regarding his journey and adventure.

Ballon0351
I would advice looking at the beginning stages of the exploration as an adventure. Not a sixty minutes journalist style of looking at or for what is wrong or bad. Enjoy yourself and take away what is useful and pocket for later what is left. See truth comment above. I hope that you keep us posted on your exploration and good luck and good training.

Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[ballen0351]

K-man wrote:


Ah, sorry to disappoint K-man but neither you or your post were in my thoughts when I crafted my reply but rather what Ballen0351 wrote My apologies as I should have quoted him. You're right that I have not yet trained with you and I AM sorry. My haste and poor writing allowed you to take the post as some kind of attack on you and obviously your dojo even though I have not yet trained with you or at your dojo, I am sure that it is a reflection of my writing skills and communication skills.

I hope I didnt coem across like I plan to go in there and resist like Im a bad *** and want to see what they got. Just all he criticism I see about Aikido is the "attacker" never really attempts an attack they just go with the flow never offering any resistance. So nobody actually learns anything but basically a dance.
I of course have no personal knowledge of this as fact since Ive never trained in it before. My goal is to enter this class with an open mind looking to learn something new and have a good time. The Dojo Im looking at is VERY small only a handful of peoplego there. Ive lived here most of my adult life and until last week never knew it existed. Im excited and looking forward to a new adventure. When I asked the question it was more along the lines of what organizations are creditable and which are not. For example I drive over an hour to my Goju Dojo passing many other schools because its affiliated with IOGKF. Not that Im saying they are the best of the best but at least I know they have standards.

Ballon0351
I would advice looking at the beginning stages of the exploration as an adventure. Not a sixty minutes journalist style of looking at or for what is wrong or bad. Enjoy yourself and take away what is useful and pocket for later what is left. See truth comment above. I hope that you keep us posted on your exploration and good luck and good training.

Warmest Regards
Brian King

Thats exactly how Im going into this. Im excited Ive always wanted to try Aikido So when I discovered this dojo It was like christmas in April lol. Ill find out in a few days how I like it.

 

[K-man]

Im excited Ive always wanted to try Aikido So when I discovered this dojo It was like christmas in April lol. Ill find out in a few days how I like it.

Have a ball and we will all be waiting to hear how you got on. Enjoy! :asian:

 

[Jenna]

I hope I didnt coem across like I plan to go in there and resist like Im a bad *** and want to see what they got.

Haha.. yes that would be a perfect introduction to Aikido It would not be the first time that a youtuber had come train with the view that Aikido is lots of ponytail men leaping around like ballerinas and stepped off mats thinking, why are my wrists so sore I cannot tie my sneakers?

And but see that is a serious point. I would say that if you are in any doubt, resist to prove the thing to yourself. I promise though if your sensei and seniors are fit to call theirselves Aikidoka then you will appreciate -as everyone does- that just like the Borg have it, in Aikido, resistance is futile I wish you all the very best and most importantly like Russ says, just have lots of fun.

Oh, and yes one last word of caution.. ALWAYS say no to ponytails, yes?!

 

[ballen0351]

Oh, and yes one last word of caution.. ALWAYS say no to ponytails, yes?!

Whats up with the pony tail? I went to the class this week and sure enough there was a guy with a pony tail.

 

[ballen0351]

Well I went to my first class. It was small and I spent alot of time with the instructor and a high ranking student. Im not sure what rank because everyone even the instructor wore a white belt. The instructor and the other high ranking student wore a Hakama.
It was fun I enjoyed it alot. They addressed my misconceptions about not resisting and the techniques not working if someone resists with out me ever bring it up. They did several different things and allowed me to try and resist or stop them and showed that they can work. So that was good and I didnt have to have bring it up. THere were some other things I wasnt so sure of, it seemed like with very little effort people were getting "thrown" across the room. I think it was more training and respect for the teacher that they would take a "dive" for lack of a better term but when they worked with each other I didnt see that. I also think when you try to resist I learned it hurts so its easier on yout body to go with the flow. I will def. need to work on relaxing and trying not to use my strength and rely more on the technique but thats what my Goju teacher says also. I am def going to go back I really like it. They showed me some arm locks and wrist locks I could use at work as well some I have seen before some I hadnt so that was cool. It was neat to see some of the similarities with it and Goju and also some of the differences. It all went by pretty quick I was there about 3 hours and they really were trying to teach me anything they were just showing me a big mixture of alot of different things to give me a broad idea of what its all about.

 

[dancingalone]

Oh, and yes one last word of caution.. ALWAYS say no to ponytails, yes?!

LOL. One of our dans had an unfortunate accident involving his ponytail and a first time randori partner. Ouch. Good reason to go with the clean cut look.

 

[K-man]

They did several different things and allowed me to try and resist or stop them and showed that they can work.

That was all I was suggesting you should do. Now at least you can rest assured your will not be wasting time and money.

So that was good and I didnt have to have bring it up. THere were some other things I wasnt so sure of, it seemed like with very little effort people were getting "thrown" across the room. I think it was more training and respect for the teacher that they would take a "dive" for lack of a better term but when they worked with each other I didnt see that.

That is in randori and it is normal training. They are taking a dive but that's ok. It is all part of receiving.

I also think when you try to resist I learned it hurts so its easier on yout body to go with the flow.

Normally you wouldn't resist but I hope you teacher also gets everyone to test their technique at some point.

I will def. need to work on relaxing and trying not to use my strength and rely more on the technique but thats what my Goju teacher says also.

Go and Ju, hard and soft. This will help develop your soft side.

I am def going to go back I really like it. They showed me some arm locks and wrist locks I could use at work as well some I have seen before some I hadnt so that was cool. It was neat to see some of the similarities with it and Goju and also some of the differences.

You'll find heaps of moves in Goju kata that tie in with those locks and holds. Most karate just doesn't train close enough to find them. There are a couple of them that will work beautifully on the street.

It all went by pretty quick I was there about 3 hours and they really were trying to teach me anything they were just showing me a big mixture of alot of different things to give me a broad idea of what its all about.

I'm really glad it was a positive experience. Not only do I enjoy aikido but it has helped lift my Goju to a higher level of understanding as well. Somewhere down the track I'd love to compare notes. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

There are somethings I need to get use to that seemed strange to me. There were several times they would try to do a technique on me and I would just let go of their wrist and they couldnt complete the technique. It was hard for me to not let go and let them put me into an off balance position. I need to remember I was there to help my partner train. It just seemed unnatural not to just let go.

 

[K-man]

There are somethings I need to get use to that seemed strange to me. There were several times they would try to do a technique on me and I would just let go of their wrist and they couldnt complete the technique. It was hard for me to not let go and let them put me into an off balance position. I need to remember I was there to help my partner train. It just seemed unnatural not to just let go.

Just think of all you do as a training tool or exercise. Working from grips is valuable in learning not to worry about being held and even more, when you hold with full strength, being able to move around that strength. When these things are done at normal speed it doesn't matter if you let go.

Something else to consider is human nature. When we succeed in getting hold of something, we quite often try to keep hold when reality would say, "just let go". :asian:

 

[Chris Li]

Just think of all you do as a training tool or exercise. Working from grips is valuable in learning not to worry about being held and even more, when you hold with full strength, being able to move around that strength. When these things are done at normal speed it doesn't matter if you let go.

Something else to consider is human nature. When we succeed in getting hold of something, we quite often try to keep hold when reality would say, "just let go". :asian:

Working from grips is a great exercise for a number of reasons.

OTOH, if someone's using their body in the right way then it won't be easy to remove the grip, the hand will naturally "stick" to their body. Unfortunately, very few people actually work on this.

Best,

Chris