Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Juany118]

Yeah, a sloppy haymaker can wrap around and tickle your off button at the base of your skull. Not fun. I'd rather cover that puppy up just in case.

Everything is a compromise. Against a telegraphed haymaker, I like the two-handed shoulder stop, since the followups are many. However, you don't always get that amount of notice. So grabbing the back of the head it is for my back-up. Easy to do, provides a good amount of safety. I'm not saying that other things aren't good too. But that's my go-to when things get hairy.

First let me explain better what I meant by the ear being as far back as we go. I mean that is where the palm will be. So the finger tips may wrap a bit around the back of the skull but the fingertips alone really don't provide much in the way of protection, they essentially just become a pivot point if needed.

That out of the way, if you are facing the opponent, unless they are "Mr. Fantastic" from the Fantastic 4 you can still stop the strike you are referring to with the cover hand stopping around the ear though. All that is required is expanding the angle. By this I mean the following; picture the "base" on the angle running along the side of your head and the other portion of the angle starting where you hand is positioned along that first line. Next, with your hand as the pivot point, swing the elbow out as the strike is coming in. Essentially the haymaker slides long the arm, widening it's arc and so it still misses.

This is of course only if you insist on staying in one place. The more sensible course is to simply t-step or release step away from that haymaker, in that case you get the same effect without creating a larger opening for a straight shot to come into through the now wider gap.

Like you said though. everything is a compromise. In the first example I better have my opposite hand in a position to cover what is now a wider gap for the opponents other hand. In the second example I better not dawdle and reorient towards my opponent quickly because I have basically given him a flanking position.

I just try to personally avoid 2 armed defenses against everything but strong kicks because, first I wish to counter as quickly as possible and lastly, if the opponent is any good at trapping, you have placed yourself in a position where they can potentially trap not one but both your arms by simply moving in on the arm closest to them.

 

[Ironbear24]

My hip throws suck. I almosr never get them to work in randori in Judo. Foot sweeps, various sacrifice throws, all functional. Can't do O goshi against a resisting opponent to save my life for two reasons: I'm 6 feet tall so getting low enough is a challenge, and I'm a lefty, so it's easy for a right gripping opponent to block me. Koshi Guruma works for me once in a while since my arm goes over top. Sometimes I get single arm throws to work. My next goal is getting my Tai Otoshi to work.

My worst so far: Hane Goshi (Spring hip). Can't do it at all.

I'm 5'9. And for some reason the people who mess with me are always very tall and lanky guys. In sparring and practice it is very hard for me to do any clean throw or tachi waza on a shorter person. Height does matter alot for any hip throw.

 

[drop bear]

My hip throws suck. I almosr never get them to work in randori in Judo. Foot sweeps, various sacrifice throws, all functional. Can't do O goshi against a resisting opponent to save my life for two reasons: I'm 6 feet tall so getting low enough is a challenge, and I'm a lefty, so it's easy for a right gripping opponent to block me. Koshi Guruma works for me once in a while since my arm goes over top. Sometimes I get single arm throws to work. My next goal is getting my Tai Otoshi to work.

My worst so far: Hane Goshi (Spring hip). Can't do it at all.

We over rotate the shoulder throw so that if it gets blocked we can shoot for a single leg. Of course can't single leg in judo.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, a sloppy haymaker can wrap around and tickle your off button at the base of your skull. Not fun. I'd rather cover that puppy up just in case.

Everything is a compromise. Against a telegraphed haymaker, I like the two-handed shoulder stop, since the followups are many. However, you don't always get that amount of notice. So grabbing the back of the head it is for my back-up. Easy to do, provides a good amount of safety. I'm not saying that other things aren't good too. But that's my go-to when things get hairy.

Yeah. we hit a little angle to get around. But same same. Especially with little gloves.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm 5'9. And for some reason the people who mess with me are always very tall and lanky guys. In sparring and practice it is very hard for me to do any clean throw or tachi waza on a shorter person. Height does matter alot for any hip throw.

Not every throw can be used against a taller opponent. When this happens, use the right technique designed for throwing a taller opponent.

 

[drop bear]

First let me explain better what I meant by the ear being as far back as we go. I mean that is where the palm will be. So the finger tips may wrap a bit around the back of the skull but the fingertips alone really don't provide much in the way of protection, they essentially just become a pivot point if needed.

That out of the way, if you are facing the opponent, unless they are "Mr. Fantastic" from the Fantastic 4 you can still stop the strike you are referring to with the cover hand stopping around the ear though. All that is required is expanding the angle. By this I mean the following; picture the "base" on the angle running along the side of your head and the other portion of the angle starting where you hand is positioned along that first line. Next, with your hand as the pivot point, swing the elbow out as the strike is coming in. Essentially the haymaker slides long the arm, widening it's arc and so it still misses.

This is of course only if you insist on staying in one place. The more sensible course is to simply t-step or release step away from that haymaker, in that case you get the same effect without creating a larger opening for a straight shot to come into through the now wider gap.

Like you said though. everything is a compromise. In the first example I better have my opposite hand in a position to cover what is now a wider gap for the opponents other hand. In the second example I better not dawdle and reorient towards my opponent quickly because I have basically given him a flanking position.

I just try to personally avoid 2 armed defenses against everything but strong kicks because, first I wish to counter as quickly as possible and lastly, if the opponent is any good at trapping, you have placed yourself in a position where they can potentially trap not one but both your arms by simply moving in on the arm closest to them.

You would have to trap the far arm. The closest arm would be the one that goes across the body. Which is not the one that is really going to throw a bomb back at you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hands on the back of your neck will make me strike harder with the goal of breaking your hand or fingers. At the very least I will try to strike hard enough to cause enough damage to reduce the ability of that hand.

 

[drop bear]

From that close?

I should probably clarify that I teach using elbow with a trapping hand. So, if I'm striking with my right elbow to the head, my left hand is often behind their neck. Much harder to miss there.

Yeah the elbow doesnt have any real forward travel past its intended target. And it is a straight bar. So if the target has really moved at all the elbow misses outright. If the other hand is in the way then the elbow misses.

Now because in fighting the head is moving all the time. The elbow isn't as reliable as people think. Which is wny it is not thrown as often as it technically should be.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not every throw can be used against a taller opponent. When this happens, use the right technique designed for throwing a taller opponent.

I think you misunderstood me. I am saying the tall people are easier to throw than the shorter people are.

It has to with getting your hips lower than theirs for the hip throw.

 

[Langenschwert]

I think you misunderstood me. I am saying the tall people are easier to throw than the shorter people are.

It has to with getting your hips lower than theirs for the hip throw.

I agree. It's a vicious circle really. Because I'm tall, I don't get the chance to use hip throws very often, so when I actually do find a taller person, my hip throws aren't practiced enough to be useful anyway. Never mind the inherent difficulty of getting in on a much taller opponent. Oh well, work in progress, just like my BKB.

 

[Juany118]

You would have to trap the far arm. The closest arm would be the one that goes across the body. Which is not the one that is really going to throw a bomb back at you.

I am referring to this

... I like the two-handed shoulder stop

Now I have seen techniques that sound like this were you face the block point (in this case the haymaker) and then jam the arm throwing the haymaker with both your arms, one close to the elbow, the other in closer to the shoulder. I have most often seen this done when there is a very noticeable weight/strength difference between the two combatants, the stronger being the one throwing the haymaker and the size differential making the defender lacking confidence in addressing the haymaker with a single arm.

The problem with this (and I have seen it done under pressure) is the opponent can take their freehand and go for the arm near the shoulder and then basically shove that arm across and then down on top of the arm near the elbow. This not only traps but also complete screws the balance of the guy who was blocking and you can completely clobber him.

Now if this isn't what he meant (because I had never heard that particular term before) then the above may not apply.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would agree because of the following. Now note it will be a little overly simplified. To fight/defend yourself you need energy to first be traveling in one direction or another. If your opponent is not polite enough to provide you with energy you can redirect to your purpose then you must direct energy towards him in a more personal manner and at some point that typically involves striking of some sort, even if it is simply to "set them up."

Agreed. My position is that a "pure aiki" approach to the aiki arts is idealistic. There's nothing wrong with that if you come from a point of intellectual study. From a practical perspective, however, you have to account for those times when the attacker isn't - as you said - polite enough to provide the energy.

You can end up in either position actually. If I do not take positive control of the arm on the side I am entering, either via a trap or a wrist lock, then I am inside, if I do accomplish the initial limb control then I am standing on the outside and slightly to the rear. The main reason for the elbow in either case, at least to my mind, is that the elbow is in a position to strike as a consequence of how I will apply the swing arm anyway, so why not avail myself of an additional distraction?

The only reason I have for not adding the elbow on the outside position is simply that I move directly to controlling the head, using it to bring him down without the strike. Two different approaches, likely of similar efficacy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My hip throws suck. I almosr never get them to work in randori in Judo. Foot sweeps, various sacrifice throws, all functional. Can't do O goshi against a resisting opponent to save my life for two reasons: I'm 6 feet tall so getting low enough is a challenge, and I'm a lefty, so it's easy for a right gripping opponent to block me. Koshi Guruma works for me once in a while since my arm goes over top. Sometimes I get single arm throws to work. My next goal is getting my Tai Otoshi to work.

My worst so far: Hane Goshi (Spring hip). Can't do it at all.

Actually, the biggest issue with making your throws (pretty much any of them) work during randori is that your partner knows the same throws. If they are of similar experience and skill, their ability to counter is probably equal to your ability to throw (and vice versa). With someone who doesn't know those techniques (and to a lesser extent, even someone who does, but not from Judo), there are more opportunities.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah the elbow doesnt have any real forward travel past its intended target. And it is a straight bar. So if the target has really moved at all the elbow misses outright. If the other hand is in the way then the elbow misses.

Now because in fighting the head is moving all the time. The elbow isn't as reliable as people think. Which is wny it is not thrown as often as it technically should be.

Ah. The elbow strike I'm mostly thinking about is upward. It's that close, and would be used mostly when we've both come in (so momentum holds them from backing up as quickly as in other circumstances). Beyond that distance, unless I'm restraining their head/neck, I'm not within what I'd consider elbow distance. So, as you said, not a lot of opportunities for it, since it's such short range. It makes a nice complement to the way we move, though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you misunderstood me. I am saying the tall people are easier to throw than the shorter people are.

It has to with getting your hips lower than theirs for the hip throw.

Easier to start against a taller person (taller at the hips). More devastating if your hips are higher than theirs (since you can drop under then raise them up and crash them to the ground).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree. It's a vicious circle really. Because I'm tall, I don't get the chance to use hip throws very often, so when I actually do find a taller person, my hip throws aren't practiced enough to be useful anyway. Never mind the inherent difficulty of getting in on a much taller opponent. Oh well, work in progress, just like my BKB.

In my experience, though a hip throw can be devastating from a taller person, it takes a bigger opening, so the best hip throwers tend to be the guys with short legs. The stocky guys with solid physiques have a nice ability to use that weight to pull you into it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am referring to this Now I have seen techniques that sound like this were you face the block point (in this case the haymaker) and then jam the arm throwing the haymaker with both your arms, one close to the elbow, the other in closer to the shoulder. I have most often seen this done when there is a very noticeable weight/strength difference between the two combatants, the stronger being the one throwing the haymaker and the size differential making the defender lacking confidence in addressing the haymaker with a single arm.

The problem with this (and I have seen it done under pressure) is the opponent can take their freehand and go for the arm near the shoulder and then basically shove that arm across and then down on top of the arm near the elbow. This not only traps but also complete screws the balance of the guy who was blocking and you can completely clobber him.

Now if this isn't what he meant (because I had never heard that particular term before) then the above may not apply.

I think you and I pictured the same block. It's one I teach as a starting point for new students. It's also a nice "oh crap" maneuver, but has weaknesses like the one you mentioned. Coming in really hard helps (and takes their structure when you crash into that one shoulder at the joint), as does throwing an elbow, or even a forearm to the neck.

 

[Juany118]

Ah. The elbow strike I'm mostly thinking about is upward. It's that close, and would be used mostly when we've both come in (so momentum holds them from backing up as quickly as in other circumstances). Beyond that distance, unless I'm restraining their head/neck, I'm not within what I'd consider elbow distance. So, as you said, not a lot of opportunities for it, since it's such short range. It makes a nice complement to the way we move, though.

I throw elbows from any direction. As in the case I was discussing earlier it is horizontal, thing is when I am doing that I am so silly close that even if the person does move their head the only thing that may change is the part of the head that gets struck. Both Kali and Wing Chun are weird in that way. Yes once in "trapping/grappling range" you can grapple and take down, but there is also a lot of work done striking in the trapping/grappling range as well. The idea being that the opponent should be well "softened up" before you use those techniques.

As for head control, the method you work with is definitely effective, I just have certain complications occupationally. Even if I am doing head control it is, in essence, also neck control and that is more problematic for the brass than me shattering an orbit with an elbow strike because they aren't the ones training me in this and so they don't have the same insulation from civil liability.

As an example, my school is hosting a seminar in Feb on Chin Na takedowns, nerve strikes for larger opponent's, knife grappling, joint dislocation and "proper" choke holds. You would think my or wouldn't mind me sending out an email inviting officers to take part, especially since the head instructor is a DoJ certified instructor. Nope, since they don't want to be seen as "sponsoring" it I was only allowed to hang a flier on the bulletin board. Gotta love liability born paranoia.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I throw elbows from any direction. As in the case I was discussing earlier it is horizontal, thing is when I am doing that I am so silly close that even if the person does move their head the only thing that may change is the part of the head that gets struck. Both Kali and Wing Chun are weird in that way. Yes once in "trapping/grappling range" you can grapple and take down, but there is also a lot of work done striking in the trapping/grappling range as well. The idea being that the opponent should be well "softened up" before you use those techniques.

As for head control, the method you work with is definitely effective, I just have certain complications occupationally. Even if I am doing head control it is, in essence, also neck control and that is more problematic for the brass than me shattering an orbit with an elbow strike because they aren't the ones training me in this and so they don't have the same insulation from civil liability.

As an example, my school is hosting a seminar in Feb on Chin Na takedowns, nerve strikes for larger opponent's, knife grappling, joint dislocation and "proper" choke holds. You would think my or wouldn't mind me sending out an email inviting officers to take part, especially since the head instructor is a DoJ certified instructor. Nope, since they don't want to be seen as "sponsoring" it I was only allowed to hang a flier on the bulletin board. Gotta love liability born paranoia.

I can see that.

I've been working on better defining the zones for students. At advanced levels it's pretty fluid, but it's useful for students do have some rules to make their decisions on early. For me, striking is primarily at 3 distances: leg length (kicks), wrist (punches and some kicks), and "kissing distance" (elbows and some knees). There are exceptions, but most of the striking outside those areas will be directly linked to a "technique" (throw/takedown/lock). In "elbow-ish" range (where you're about halfway out the length of your arm, so not elbow striking distance, just the measurement), that's prime grappling range. If I'm on the outside of the arm, prime grappling range comes all the way to "shoulder-ish" range. Inside, at that range, is mostly a mistake and it's time to beat our way out or beat our way through.

 

[Juany118]

Nvm, will repost when I find a better video