Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    My guess is that this will vary depending on how conditioned a person's hand his and how well that person is able to deliver good technique.

    Which wins for you? Fist or Glove.
    For me my fist wins this battle. Gloves soften the striking points on my fist so I'm not able to get the knuckles as deep.
     
  2. marques

    marques 2nd Black Belt

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    With my weak hands, better with gloves. Without much power training (for the same reason) MMA gloves would be the best for me, for precision. Little power, but well delivered. Efficiency. (Or pretending.)

    I think if I am not angry, I have more power even with my elbows. In angry mode... Perhaps I don't care about pain and broken bones before someone is death... :)
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    [​IMG]
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    I'll say "palm edge" instead. It has less area and more meat. You can hit as hard as you can without worrying about your own hand bone breaking.

    When I was young, at the end of one group fight, one of my friends found out that he had a tooth in his knuckle.
     
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  5. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    No gloves at all. More realism.
     
  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    Which one is your strongest hit? Gloves on or gloves off?
     
  7. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    I purposefully train for self defense so I not only work on toughing my hands (punching rice bags along with, currently, the tire dummy in my basement I use my weapons on but hope to get a legit heavy bag for X-mas ;) ) but arm and hand structure. The main reason for the gloves in MMA wasn't to reduce punch damage. It was to 1. Make striking more viable for a win via KO with "boxing" style punches and 2. Reduce blood spilled since knuckles can cut skin far easier.

    Tapeing up and/or wearing wrist supportive gloves allows you to avoid wrist damage from punching in ways that are dangerous biomechanically. There is a reason bareknuckle boxers used to stand and punch like this...

    [​IMG]

    Then the gloves themselves allow for punching to bony structures minimizing "boxers fractures" without going through the headache I do. I will sometimes do knuckle push-ups on a tile floor, I punch rice filled canvass bags also to strengthen the bones over time etc.



    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Senior Master

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    I do knuckle push ups in the grass or some where that has some soil that isn't sun baked. Each time I push up I will punch the ground with each fist before going back down. Now that I typed this I wonder if that's why my punching is powerful even if my arm is half way extended. I'll have to take some students and train them that way to see if their punching improves.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Then why did they stop standing and punching like that?





     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  10. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Nice try at hyperbole. Round punches were thrown to soft parts, sometimes to hard if absolutely needed but like anything there is a "preferred" way.

    I can cite as proof here the massive increases in concussions and KO's documented in MMA since they introduced the gloves if necessary but I would hope since you train that you already know those undeniable statistics as an informed consumer.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/combat...rate-tenfold/amp/?client=ms-android-sprint-us

    Hell some people are actually suggesting the UFC do away with gloves hoping that it will reduce head strikes to pre glove levels and thus reduce the incidents of concussions alone.

    Joe Rogan: UFC Fighters Shouldn't Wear Gloves

    But whatever... Ignore biomechanics if ya want to.
     
  11. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    To damage an opponent, I'll take bare handed every time. To train, both for the opponents safety and the safety of my hands, I'll take good gloves every time.
     
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  12. Ironbear24

    Ironbear24 Senior Master

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    Off.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So you would be gloves on for the more reliable ko?
     
  14. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    I don't think it is a global "either/or" choice.

    For my purposes I would see bare handed as the way because I train for self defense, where I won't be wearing gloves, so I do conditioning and train to punch hard targets in a specific way. However if I was competing I would likely prefer gloves because not worrying as much about conditioning would mean more time for all the other training and not being as concerned about how I am punching hard targets mechanically.
     
  15. Mephisto

    Mephisto Black Belt

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    The largely accepted reason for the classical boxing stance was the prequeesnbury rules which allowed grappling, throws, and low kicks. After the adoption of standardized rules that discouraged grappling and clinching boxing focus shifted to punching and a more evolved punching game developed. The newer more evasive style of punching transitioned to a more evasive skillset that favored footwork and headmovement which was a sharp contrast to the older "toe the line" style where evasion and footwork was frowned upon. Gloves were added to get the upperclass involved and reduce the risk of cuts to the face, they were initially only used in training but later became more widespread.

    Gloves vs bk? IMO it's a dumb comparison. Gloves are for training and competition. They reduce the risk of cuts and with wraps enable you to work punches with greater intensity for a prolonged time this improving your punching technique and endurance. They're a training tool that's it.

    If I trained without gloves at my boxing gym my face would look like hamburger meat. I can't really believe anyone is training bare knuckle with any intensity and intent to make contact on a regular basis (in a partnered sparring context).
     
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  16. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Everything you say is correct, but on another thread I believe it was @lklawson spoke of what he called the "pistol grip" punch for ungloved/untaped punching.

    The reason for this in my understanding is that everything just naturally lines up in a more solid structure at the wrist to avoid injury. If you strike with the fist horizontal you either need it taped or the fist needs to be canted to line it up properly. Tbh I thought that was just a WC theory until is contribution in the older thread but he could likely explain why he recommended it better from a Western Martial Arts perspective as he is an expert in that realm where as I am not.
     
  17. donald1

    donald1 Senior Master

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    Personally I could go either way; with or without gloves it dosnt matter much to me how I spare. But I would rather lean towards saftey.
     
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  18. Mephisto

    Mephisto Black Belt

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    I'll argue that at best it's debatable and you can make either work. Plenty of people fight bk with horizontal punches and don't break their wrist. The reason wc guys say their way is better is because of tradition and they try to back it up with pseudoscience. They point to classical boxing as confirmation for confirmation but the truth is classical boxing differed widely in approach, either way it's an antiquated punching method. You can say one vs the other is better but there are countless examples of horizontal punching working just fine.
     
  19. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    You are correct that people don't always break their wrist but that doesn't mean it is pseudoscience. The bone/ligament/tendon orientation in the wrist does actually line up more naturally without further adjustment when you also account for the forward motion of the arm. This is simply a biological fact. Now is it a fight breaking thing if you don't use that alignment? Of course not but at the same time we have a guy on light duty because he was throwing hook punches and sprain/strained things because of the lack of natural alignment and he hadn't adjusted the angle of the fist itself to compensate.

    As for focusing on Wing Chun that's why I noted this post...
    Krav Maga Kuckle Protection

    I do not use the term loosely when I say he is an expert on Western/European Martial Arts. I would also argue that if arts from opposite sides of the planet from divergent cultures and that evolved in different eras both say "this helps mitigate the chance of self injury" it does. Regardless the natural alignment is a fact /Shrug.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  20. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    The Isshinryu punch looks very much like the punch shown in the photo of the old-time bare-knuckle boxer. Fist is vertical, thumb is on top, not along the side. We strike with the top two knuckles. Hand, wrist, and arm are in alignment. I can hit quite hard without conditioning my hands and without hurting my knuckles, wrist, etc. The pressing down on the thumb moves the bones of the hand into correct alignment. IMHO.
     
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