Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Juany118]

Oh yeah. If you cover by grabbing the back of your head and the incoming fist meets the protruding elbow it, ouch. Likewise when blocking a body shot with the forearm but strike the fist with the elbow instead. When the elbow meets the forearm of an incoming haymaker, that's pretty awesome.

It's fighting after all, and nothing is at all "safe" from the perspective of a non-fighter. But neither is skiing or rugby, so there you go.

What you describe above is actually one of the reasons for one type of "cover" in the Kali I study. It's one of many methods of gunting. The only difference is we don't grab the back of the head, we sometimes describe it as a "salute". It can be anywhere from the hand being around the temple, going as far back as covering the ear, but we never grab the back of the head for whatever reason. I am guessing it's because it slows down using that limbs for a counter strike.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It can be anywhere from the hand being around the temple, going as far back as covering the ear, but we never grab the back of the head for whatever reason. I am guessing it's because it slows down using that limbs for a counter strike.

yes grabbing the back of your head slows down using that limb greatly and it still fails to cover vital areas of the head.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On that note. I know a few guys who have broken their hands from body punching.

If you hand meets an elbow at a bad angle you can break the bone that is near or over the thumb. Scapula?

It can retire a fighter

For me i have tried open hand vs closed fist. And i could stop people more quickly with a closed fist strike.

Which means one one two less punches to my face. And that can be the difference between winning and loosing a fight.

These two, IMO, outline the trade-off. I think the small difference in reach is less important (though not entirely inconsequential). I usually prefer fists to the body and open hands to the face. In my case, this is partly because I'm unlikely to grab at the body, but can use the head directly, so I like my hands open near the head. Add to that the fact that it's easier to hurt your hand on the bony head, and I willingly sacrifice some of my striking power when going for the head...unless I'm really close, then I have elbows!

 

[Juany118]

These two, IMO, outline the trade-off. I think the small difference in reach is less important (though not entirely inconsequential). I usually prefer fists to the body and open hands to the face. In my case, this is partly because I'm unlikely to grab at the body, but can use the head directly, so I like my hands open near the head. Add to that the fact that it's easier to hurt your hand on the bony head, and I willingly sacrifice some of my striking power when going for the head...unless I'm really close, then I have elbows!

I pretty much go with this idea myself most of the time, more because I just can't break the instinct to punch to the body. It helps that on a "soft target" the knuckles can "dig in", but I am working hard to break the habit because I know my palm strikes, my side palm in particular, hit harder and "deeper". This I think is the nature of a side palm strike (basically just the "meat" on the pinky side of the heal of your hand) and the fact I am a little obsessive and watch TV while wacking a bag lying on a table doing iron palm. If trained right I actually think a palm strike is superior to a punch, and side palms in particular for deeply into small places like under the orbit of the eye or even the eye socket itself. Plus being hand open you can immediately go to a control option of some sort as you said.

As for if I am close enough, if I am in a striking game I almost always want to get in close enough so my elbows become my primary weapon. Not only are they damn effective strikes but most people I have dealt with on the street simply aren't used to dealing with being "struck" that close. It can actually freak em out a bit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I pretty much go with this idea myself most of the time, more because I just can't break the instinct to punch to the body. It helps that on a "soft target" the knuckles can "dig in", but I am working hard to break the habit because I know my palm strikes, my side palm in particular, hit harder and "deeper". This I think is the nature of a side palm strike (basically just the "meat" on the pinky side of the heal of your hand) and the fact I am a little obsessive and watch TV while wacking a bag lying on a table doing iron palm. If trained right I actually think a palm strike is superior to a punch, and side palms in particular for deeply into small places like under the orbit of the eye or even the eye socket itself. Plus being hand open you can immediately go to a control option of some sort as you said.

As for if I am close enough, if I am in a striking game I almost always want to get in close enough so my elbows become my primary weapon. Not only are they damn effective strikes but most people I have dealt with on the street simply aren't used to dealing with being "struck" that close. It can actually freak em out a bit.

For me, the striking range is usually either very close or far. If I'm in between those points, I'm in prime grappling area. I'll strike in that area, but it's most often to open up options for grappling. If someone keeps me from getting in, striking is my "defense" in that range while I either move out of range or take an opening to get back in. Striking in elbow range is usually because they entered past my grappling range, or I'm moving in to get better position. An upward elbow to the face that (hopefully) drops them puts me in precisely the position I want: not fighting any more.

 

[oaktree]

Drop bear please Google the word scapula to know it's location.

Metacarpophalangeal joint - Wikipedia I guess you are referring to.

 

[drop bear]

yes grabbing the back of your head slows down using that limb greatly and it still fails to cover vital areas of the head.

There is a sneaky movement now to try to hit people in the neck or behind the ear. It does a bit more damage and is harder to escape via head movement than the jaw.

Works a bit betterwith smaller gloves because they are harder to block.

If someone is firing shots there then your blocking arm needs to go back a bit further.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear please Google the word scapula to know it's location.

Metacarpophalangeal joint - Wikipedia I guess you are referring to.

I looked it up. It is probably the carpal bones. Scapula is in the shoulder or something.

 

[drop bear]

For me, the striking range is usually either very close or far. If I'm in between those points, I'm in prime grappling area. I'll strike in that area, but it's most often to open up options for grappling. If someone keeps me from getting in, striking is my "defense" in that range while I either move out of range or take an opening to get back in. Striking in elbow range is usually because they entered past my grappling range, or I'm moving in to get better position. An upward elbow to the face that (hopefully) drops them puts me in precisely the position I want: not fighting any more.

Easy to miss with elbows.

 

[drop bear]

These two, IMO, outline the trade-off. I think the small difference in reach is less important (though not entirely inconsequential). I usually prefer fists to the body and open hands to the face. In my case, this is partly because I'm unlikely to grab at the body, but can use the head directly, so I like my hands open near the head. Add to that the fact that it's easier to hurt your hand on the bony head, and I willingly sacrifice some of my striking power when going for the head...unless I'm really close, then I have elbows!

I have had no issue punching and then grabbing. And it is kind of my thing.

 

[Juany118]

For me, the striking range is usually either very close or far. If I'm in between those points, I'm in prime grappling area. I'll strike in that area, but it's most often to open up options for grappling. If someone keeps me from getting in, striking is my "defense" in that range while I either move out of range or take an opening to get back in. Striking in elbow range is usually because they entered past my grappling range, or I'm moving in to get better position. An upward elbow to the face that (hopefully) drops them puts me in precisely the position I want: not fighting any more.

Once that close I am about grappling as well but I have had driven into me "you don't take down until you set them up for it" and you set them up by softening them up. This obviously isn't a standard my Aikido Sensei would be strictly approval of but it's the way I was trained for all the time after I left him. With that in mind I have just found the use of elbows that close often helps soften up not only physically but psychologically because being hit but something that hard that close is something they are simply not used to.

As an example, there is a specific take down "routine" I do that works well on your average street idiot. There is a bit more to the entry but I am just trying to illustrate the use of the elbow in terms of setting up a takedown that also often involves me having a solid grip on the wrist of the side I move to.

1. Enter with a palm strike or even just a damn good slap to the face.
2. keep going in towards them as you also step to their side. Next bring the elbow in to hit as I continue to stretch my arm across their centerline.
3. then drop the arm down towards the neck area.
4. drive your knee up into the back of their knee while simultaneously swinging your arm back against their neck/face.

The strike/slap followed by the elbow is all their brain is registering until they are falling to the ground and I don't think it would work as well without that elbow because they would try turning it into a wrestling match.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is a sneaky movement now to try to hit people in the neck or behind the ear. It does a bit more damage and is harder to escape via head movement than the jaw

It's not a sneaky movement. Just not widely use. Jow Ga teaches this technique as a basic technique for beginners.

The blocking arm doesn't need to go back a bit. Just pretend that your wrist is a phone and you are talking on your phone. Keep your wrist straight and that will protect the spot. The straight wrist causes the punch to land at a different angle and prevents the punch from landing on the area that you speak of.

That should cover most instances of anyone trying to hit that area. With that said, if someone knows the technique then there's very little that one can do to prevent that area from being struck. You guys have actually seen me use this technique before but I don't think anyone paid much attention to it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once that close I am about grappling as well but I have had driven into me "you don't take down until you set them up for it" and you set them up by softening them up. This obviously isn't a standard my Aikido Sensei would be strictly approval of but it's the way I was trained for all the time after I left him. With that in mind I have just found the use of elbows that close often helps soften up not only physically but psychologically because being hit but something that hard that close is something they are simply not used to.

This is what Stan Pranin is talking about when he says there was originally more striking in Aikido. The current focus on not striking (and, yeah, it does seem to be a focus) is, IMO, detrimental to the effectiveness of the art.

As an example, there is a specific take down "routine" I do that works well on your average street idiot. There is a bit more to the entry but I am just trying to illustrate the use of the elbow in terms of setting up a takedown that also often involves me having a solid grip on the wrist of the side I move to.

1. Enter with a palm strike or even just a damn good slap to the face.
2. keep going in towards them as you also step to their side. Next bring the elbow in to hit as I continue to stretch my arm across their centerline.
3. then drop the arm down towards the neck area.
4. drive your knee up into the back of their knee while simultaneously swinging your arm back against their neck/face.

The strike/slap followed by the elbow is all their brain is registering until they are falling to the ground and I don't think it would work as well without that elbow because they would try turning it into a wrestling match.

If I'm picturing that right, you're still inside their shoulder, right? In that space, strikes do become more useful (often necessary) for the reason you mention. If you end up outside the shoulder, there's less need for the elbow, though the initial strike is probably really useful in both cases. This is why we prefer to be outside the shoulder (actually, behind it), and why I teach students to hit when a technique isn't available or starts to fail (rather than trying to force the technique).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I looked it up. It is probably the carpal bones. Scapula is in the shoulder or something.

Carpals are the wrist bones. Metacarpals are the bones in the hand. Phalanges are the fingers (and toes). (I still remember how my high school teacher taught me the hand and foot bones: "Carpals on the car. Tarsals on the tar.")

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have had no issue punching and then grabbing. And it is kind of my thing.

It's just one quarter-beat slower. Not really problematic, in most cases. I do like being able to combine the strike and grab (palm strike to the head, and fingers just wrap around). It's also easier to teach proper striking to new students who are learning to grapple, when the hand positions are so similar. Not an issue for some students, but the less-coordinated confuse it for a while.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Easy to miss with elbows.

From that close?

I should probably clarify that I teach using elbow with a trapping hand. So, if I'm striking with my right elbow to the head, my left hand is often behind their neck. Much harder to miss there.

 

[Langenschwert]

There is a sneaky movement now to try to hit people in the neck or behind the ear. It does a bit more damage and is harder to escape via head movement than the jaw.

Works a bit betterwith smaller gloves because they are harder to block.

If someone is firing shots there then your blocking arm needs to go back a bit further.

Yeah, a sloppy haymaker can wrap around and tickle your off button at the base of your skull. Not fun. I'd rather cover that puppy up just in case.

Everything is a compromise. Against a telegraphed haymaker, I like the two-handed shoulder stop, since the followups are many. However, you don't always get that amount of notice. So grabbing the back of the head it is for my back-up. Easy to do, provides a good amount of safety. I'm not saying that other things aren't good too. But that's my go-to when things get hairy.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah, a sloppy haymaker can wrap around and tickle your off button at the base of your skull. Not fun. I'd rather cover that puppy up just in case.

Everything is a compromise. Against a telegraphed haymaker, I like the two-handed shoulder stop, since the followups are many. However, you don't always get that amount of notice. So grabbing the back of the head it is for my back-up. Easy to do, provides a good amount of safety. I'm not saying that other things aren't good too. But that's my go-to when things get hairy.

A telegraphed haymaker for me says sleeve lift hip throw.

 

[Juany118]

This is what Stan Pranin is talking about when he says there was originally more striking in Aikido. The current focus on not striking (and, yeah, it does seem to be a focus) is, IMO, detrimental to the effectiveness of the art.

I would agree because of the following. Now note it will be a little overly simplified. To fight/defend yourself you need energy to first be traveling in one direction or another. If your opponent is not polite enough to provide you with energy you can redirect to your purpose then you must direct energy towards him in a more personal manner and at some point that typically involves striking of some sort, even if it is simply to "set them up."

If I'm picturing that right, you're still inside their shoulder, right? In that space, strikes do become more useful (often necessary) for the reason you mention. If you end up outside the shoulder, there's less need for the elbow, though the initial strike is probably really useful in both cases. This is why we prefer to be outside the shoulder (actually, behind it), and why I teach students to hit when a technique isn't available or starts to fail (rather than trying to force the technique).

You can end up in either position actually. If I do not take positive control of the arm on the side I am entering, either via a trap or a wrist lock, then I am inside, if I do accomplish the initial limb control then I am standing on the outside and slightly to the rear. The main reason for the elbow in either case, at least to my mind, is that the elbow is in a position to strike as a consequence of how I will apply the swing arm anyway, so why not avail myself of an additional distraction?

 

[Langenschwert]

A telegraphed haymaker for me says sleeve lift hip throw.

My hip throws suck. I almosr never get them to work in randori in Judo. Foot sweeps, various sacrifice throws, all functional. Can't do O goshi against a resisting opponent to save my life for two reasons: I'm 6 feet tall so getting low enough is a challenge, and I'm a lefty, so it's easy for a right gripping opponent to block me. Koshi Guruma works for me once in a while since my arm goes over top. Sometimes I get single arm throws to work. My next goal is getting my Tai Otoshi to work.

My worst so far: Hane Goshi (Spring hip). Can't do it at all.