George Zmmerman trial begins...

[arnisador]

Good point. I also wonder if this is the first time neighborhood watchers were watching him.

This neighborhood watch needed prof. training and supervision by a local rep. of the P.D. or Sheriff's Dept. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

[Tgace]

He was on trial for murder. I would expect him to describe events in the most favorable light for himself. And we couldn't hear the other side, but we can imagine what it's like to be a 17 y.o. kid being followed by an adult for no reason.

You are assuming that the end result means there's no reason to be suspicious. Are you implying you shouldn't report a suspicious person unless the end result is that he was actually up to something illegal??

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[Carol]

In the other thread, I asked a question that was probably missed, but I'd like some clarification, as I think it may clear some things up. On the matter of following someone. Its been said that as long as you have a right to be there, you can follow someone. When does it become stalking or harassing behavior?

If I'm in the local mall, and I see an attractive girl, I can technically follow her around the entire mall, into any store, etc. At what point can she complain, accuse me of stalking or harassing?

And for the record, I'm using myself as an example. No, I don't follow women around the mall....other than my wife, as I'm the designated bag carrier.

Good man, Mr. Bag Carrier

Well, if I were in a mall and I thought I was being followed, I would make an attempt to lose that person, whether by walking in a loop, or futzing with my phone, or whatever. If the person was still following me...then I think I have pretty good reason to believe that I am indeed being followed and this isn't just a coincidence. At that point, I'd likely take more direct action, such as alerting mall security, or leaving -- I generally park by the entrance that has the police substation. If the presence of the substation isn't enough to make the creeper go away, then I have no qualms about knocking on the door and saying that I think there is a weirdo following me.

As a contrast, take a look at this thread, as it relates to following someone around specifically a shopping mall:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ke-a-photo-with-Santa-now-you-re-under-arrest

The story seems to be gone from the link embedded in the thread, but it has been rehosted here:
https://nppa.org/news/399

 

[MJS]

Every state is different but here for a stalking charge it must be a continuing course of conduct. Meaning it can't be a one time thing. So yes you can follow the girl around the mall. Its also not a crime until you tell the person to stop. Even then however its not a crime as long as your allowed to be where you are unless there is some type of protective order in place. Also just following isn't enough the victim must be in fear of serious injury or death. The suspect must show a desire to injure kill or rape the victim just following someone isn't enough to show an intent .

The key to all of it is a continuing course of conduct.

The harassment laws here are slightly different. It can be a single event but it is not a crime until the victim tells the suspect to stop. But again just following someone isn't enough the victim must be able to show a reason they are harassed. Also there is a political exception so if your expressing a political belief you can't be charged with harassment

Thank you.

I did a quick search, and came up with this:
http://www.ctdefenselawyer.com/harassment-stalking/

Of course, I suppose everyone's idea of what is reasonable, could vary, although one would think that common sense would prevail.

 

[arnisador]

You are assuming that the end result means there's no reason to be suspicious. Are you implying you shouldn't report a suspicious person unless the end result is that he was actually up to something illegal??

There's no evidence that TM was doing anything but coming home from the store. I believe that GZ found him suspicious but if TM knew that TM was not causing any trouble he'd feel he was being followed for no well-grounded reason. Two sides to the story--two personal points of view.

 

[arnisador]

People perceive being followed as threatening. I don't know why this seems inapplicable to the GZ/TM case to some here.

 

[MJS]

Called the police. Waited and watched. It looks like he would've seen TM go into his own home and stay there.

Which is something that way back, when this incident first happened, is something that I said. Of course, as more details come out, well, it's only natural, I think, to change ones view.

Speaking for myself only, and I've said this many times on here, but when it comes to physically getting involved, unless it's a family member or close friend, I'd rather not get involved, but instead, be a good witness and call the cops.

This is why I've said that, again, for me, I feel its important to know exactly what GZ was/was not allowed to do.

 

[MJS]

People perceive being followed as threatening. I don't know why this seems inapplicable to the GZ/TM case to some here.

The land of the sheeple and paranoid...LOL! Like I said earlier, how everyone views that is up for debate, though common sense should prevail, but we know how that goes...LOL.

I've 'followed' people many times...we all follow someone, be it in the store, a large venue, etc. The actions of the follower should be a key part in deciding whether or not there are signs of a threat.

 

[MJS]

There's no evidence that TM was doing anything but coming home from the store. I believe that GZ found him suspicious but if TM knew that TM was not causing any trouble he'd feel he was being followed for no well-grounded reason. Two sides to the story--two personal points of view.

LOL...yeah, I take calls like this on a weekly basis. Sad isnt it? Goes something like this:

Me: Dispatch, can I help you?

Caller: Yes, I want to report a susp. person.

Me: Ok. What're they doing?

Caller: They're standing on the corner near a car. I think it's a drug deal.

Me: Ok. How many people? Are they white, black or hispanic? What're they wearing and can I get a desc. of the car?

Caller: They're all black, I dont know what kind of car it is, but its red, and I'm not sure what they're wearing.

At this point, I'm face palming myself because of the utter stupidity of this whole call. Some how, a few black guys, standing near a car is a drug deal? These people are watching too much CSI. LOL!

My point is...despite the stupidity of these types of calls, they happen...A LOT! I've taken calls for a susp. car. Now, I see cars drive thru my condo complex, that I don't recognize and I don't call the cops. 99.9% of the time, the cop checks it out and says everything is fine...they were lost, they were pulled over to make a phone call, etc, etc.

GZ didn't recognize this kid, I assume there may've been past break ins, etc, or something to warrant his curiosity, so why not check the kid out? Did TZ have to stop for someone who's not a cop? Probably not. But whats done is done. GZ did what he felt was in his capacity as a NW person, and the rest is history. OTOH, TM couldve just as easily been a polite child and explained who he was, why he was there, etc.

 

[ballen0351]

Called the police. Waited and watched. It looks like he would've seen TM go into his own home and stay there.

That's what he did and Martin had that chance and didn't do it.

 

[ballen0351]

Good point. I also wonder if this is the first time neighborhood watchers were watching him.

This neighborhood watch needed prof. training and supervision by a local rep. of the P.D. or Sheriff's Dept. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

You dont need police permission to take an interest in your neighborhoods security.

 

[arnisador]

You dont need police permission to take an interest in your neighborhoods security.

True. But if you're going out following people while carrying a firearm, a little advice from the experts couldn't hurt. We're not talking about someone in their living room with binoculars just making a phone call.

 

[ballen0351]

True. But if you're going out following people while carrying a firearm, a little advice from the experts couldn't hurt. We're not talking about someone in their living room with binoculars just making a phone call.

My advise to Zimmerman would have been exactly what he did. Follow from a safe distance call 911 keep us posted on the suspects location until we get there.

 

[arnisador]

My advise to Zimmerman would have been exactly what he did. Follow from a safe distance

In retrospect, did he follow from a safe distance?

 

[ballen0351]

In retrospect, did he follow from a safe distance?

Safe enough that he lost Martin. Martin is the one that then closed the distance

 

[Big Don]

He was on trial for murder. I would expect him to describe events in the most favorable light for himself. And we couldn't hear the other side, but we can imagine what it's like to be a 17 y.o. kid being followed by an adult for no reason.

There is no proof, that Martin was being followed for "no reason".

 

[Steve]

There is no proof, that Martin was being followed for "no reason".

No proof either way.


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[Big Don]

No proof either way.


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Then why keep attacking Zimmerman's actions?
He was acquitted...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Where did "Stand your ground" come into play here?

I think Zimmerman's defense team plans to use the immunity clause from the Stand Your Ground law if any civil suits are brought to bear. (I remember hearing one of his lawyer's say exactly that) So in a way even if it was not brought forward and made an integral part of the defense's argument it may be brought forward to stop a civil suit. If I am also correct during one part of the trial they talked about Zimmerman not having a duty to retreat to defend himself from the Stand Your Ground law. I could be wrong on this because unlike most of America I followed just the headlines of this case.

Where not the juror's in this case given Florida's stand your ground law during their deliberations?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In regards to my post before. I think that we on this forum can learn a lot from this case!