FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all

[John J]

This is a no-win situation. To find someone higher than 6th degree in Modern Arnis one pretty much has to go to the Phil. But back there the form of Modern Arnis they're doing is at the least a different 'dialect' and nearly qualifies as a different art--the Prof. changed it so much here in the U.S. So, looking within the art is tough--esp. when you consider that Mr. Hartman is one of the datus of the art, which was supposed to be a sign of leadership within the art that was in some sense 'beyond' rank.

We all win or better yet learn from the contributions. Let me state my points again. I said that peers (of equal level) along with seniors are the only individual's that are qualified to make the assessment. Now, would I be correct to use the analogy of the JKD community wherein there is original JKD and JKD Concepts? In other words, the evolution of present day MA is a result of the many influences and resources availble to Remy? If this is the case, then yes...the players back home, peers or seniors would not count.

Dr. Gyi was close to the Prof. and was explicitly asked by the Prof. to help the Prof.'s students. Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu and a FMA grandmaster. Their endorsement seems relevant to me.

I never questioned Bong's endorsement. However, I do question the validity of Dr. Gyi's involvement on ranking. I am aware of his ties to Remy but is he knowledgeable or skilled enough in present day MA or FMA in general or is his support more for a character reference?

But the promotion is from the board. This is the Kenpo model, which again seems rather relevant to me--several Kenpoka were promoted in this manner...

Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.

Add to that this quote from Mark Wiley's book, Filipino Martial Arts Cabales Serrada Escrima, "Filipinos are a proud people, especially in the realm of personal combat. It is a rare practice for one Escrima master to acknowledge the skill of another, let alone speak of him with a tone of respect." Neither of had been to the Philippines so going there was not a realistic option.

I agree, Filipinos are proud. However, I disagree with Mark's comments. Although there is some "friendly animosity", there is plenty of camaraderie back home. Back in 97', Master Galang visited the PI with several students. Along with Master Ricketts, he arranged for the students to meet & train with several GM's; GM Jose Mena of Doblete Rapillon, GM Nene Tortal of Tirada-Tirsia and GM Ben Lema of Lightning Scientific. The plans with GM Lema fell through but all went well with GM Mena & GM Tortal. There are many more instances where friendship and respect outweigh arrogance.

So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

 

[Cruentus]

So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

I'll let some others reply, but the short answer is yes; and I believe that this rank already has been recognized outside the WMAA!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by John J
1) We all win or better yet learn from the contributions. Let me state my points again. I said that peers (of equal level) along with seniors are the only individual's that are qualified to make the assessment. Now, would I be correct to use the analogy of the JKD community wherein there is original JKD and JKD Concepts? In other words, the evolution of present day MA is a result of the many influences and resources availble to Remy? If this is the case, then yes...the players back home, peers or seniors would not count.

2) Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.

3) I agree, Filipinos are proud. However, I disagree with Mark's comments. Although there is some "friendly animosity", there is plenty of camaraderie back home. There are many more instances where friendship and respect outweigh arrogance.

4) So, my final question is, will this rank be recognized by non-WMAA practitioners???

John J,
Again, a well stated series of opinions and questions. My reply:

1. Present day Modern Arnis is a composite of the influences Remy Presas had throughout his life: his grandfather's art, balintawak, karate, judo, small circle jujutsu and ryukyu kempo - all in varying degrees. I would almost make a division between Philippines Remy Presas Modern Arnis and American Remy Presas Modern Arnis. I think that would be far more correct. Personally, I don't disregard any of RP's Filipino students but I have little in common with them either as I really don't know them or have trained with them other than Shishir Inocalla.

2. Except that we are in the US and the board needed some sort of model to proceed by.

3. Excellent!

4. Not sure. There will be a number of non-WMAA players who might raise a fuss. As I said in a previous post, "Tim is promoted to 7th dan in WMAA Modern Arnis. Nowhere is he saying he is also an IMAF, MARPPIO, IMAF, Inc., WMAC, old-school-back-in-the-Philippines Modern Arnis or Modern Arnis 80 7th dan. He is a WMAA Modern Arnis 7th dan, pure and simple."

I accept and support him as that.

One might say that this doesn't answer your question as I am a member of WMAA but let me say that I am first a student of the late Remy Presas; second, I am the head of my own branch of Modern Arnis (Modern Arnis 80); and third; I am a WMAA member - in that order. As someone who has more years in Modern Arnis as well as in the martial arts than Tim and have been a 6th Degree for 8 years longer than Tim, I could be first in line to cry "Foul!" and piss, $h!t and moan about the illegalities and inequities of it all. This is not the case. Since the death of our teacher, there has been a rank freeze in the mother art. Dieter went to the Philippines and received his 7th from the Philippine seniors. Tim received his from the board and senior advisors. I have not resolved the issue for myself as of yet.

Here's my question for you: do you recognize it?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

thekuntawman,

Thank you for your reply. As stated by Dan Anderson, well written and with your opinions and questions still in order.

Pesonally, I think we would get along just fine , and even share a beer or glass of lemonade, or whatever is being served.


As to the JD and McManus presentation of Modern Arnis, I would have to agree with you. And very few would disagree with your comments on that subject.


I have to go help my Brother move into his new house. His first. I will try to reply to your questions later.

Enjoy the weekend and the holiday.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by John J
Let's not dwell on the ranking "practices" of Karate, Kenpo or whater else as they simply do pertain to Arnis / Eskrima. To use them as a guide or model does not validate anything.[/B]

You make several good points; I want to disagree with this one. The Prof. introduced Japanese-style belt rankings and kata to Modern Arnis, and added a fair amount of Small Circle Ju-Jitsu techniques. I believe that it's relevant to the art of Modern Arnis.

I also think we can look to JKD and Kenpo more generally as examples of what to do and what not to do after the passing of a grandmaster without a clear and universally accepted successor.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This thread has gone into two directions.

1. How did the WMAA come up with the formula to promote Tim Hartman?
2. Calling my promotion a McDojo promotion as stated by Moro Moro.

I will address the promotion procedure in this post.

First of all Remy introduced a Japanese-style belt ranking system to go from white to 10th degree black belt. At the time of his death I had earn a 6th degree black belt. We in the WMAA felt that we needed to be able to continue promoting ALL levels of black belts so that our members weren’t capped at 5th degree. We consulted with several different groups the found themselves in similar circumstances to see how they dealt with the problem. After doing the research we felt that the promotion should come from our advisory board and we would look for some endorsements from outside the system.

When choosing our method we searched for what would be most accepted in the martial arts community and not just the FMA community. Seeing that this was a US based organization this seemed to be the most accepted procedure. We know that not everyone will agree with our method, but this is what we chose to do. I would like to thank everyone who tried to keep this thread polite even if they did not agree with our methods.

Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

:asian:

 

[moromoro]

so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

 

[moromoro]

also on the august issue of black belt magazine (1998)

you said that you really only had a teacher 5 or 6 times a year.

could you please explain this

are you saying that you only trained with your GM 5 to 6 times a year?

did you train with him for longer periods? how long?



terry

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Well, in only a few months of posting here, you're a 2nd degree black belt! :lol:

While normally I very vehemently oppose ranking from people outside one's own style, ranking from people who do not study and "outrank" you in one's own style, or board examinations to promote someone beyond a grade that no one on that board posesses, in the case of Mr. Hartman and Modern Arnis within the WMAA, I don't see that he had any other choice available to him...

Someone asked "well, isn't 6th dan enough?"

Not if the WMAA ever wants to promote someone beyond that, or if they ever want anyone to reach 6th dan (normally folks feel that to promote someone to a level, you need to be at least one or two levels above it - thereby limiting the WMAA to only a few more generations of senior black belts before the best they could do would be 1st dan!).

Someone commented "Remy gave him 6th dan," and implied that that was all Remy wanted to give him in so commenting. Regrettably, though, we are unable to ask the source what his intentions were, yes?

I have no affiliation with the WMAA whatsoever. Sure, I trained with/under one of Mr. Hartman's students, but I hold no official ties with their organization. I normally oppose such practices, but I think that in Mr. Hartman's case there was nothing wrong with what was done...

Maybe Moromoro just has a burr under his saddle that he can't get to just yet. In time, perhaps he will reach a level of greater understanding of things beyond technique and will realize that sometimes to grow you need to do something others may not be happy with. And I don't remember the WMAA asking folks in general what they thought of it, either...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[bloodwood]

Tim Hartman is one of only six people to be awarded the title of Datu by Professor Presas. I have been told that Professor's goal was to have ten Datu to carry on and develop his beloved Modern Arnis. At the time of his passing there were only six, so that is where the Datu list will end. Clearly the Datu are not fixated on rank, shown by the fact that one of them holds no rank in Modern Arnis at all. He has developed his own system and is the GM of that system. Two of them are Filipino, three are from the USA and one from Europe. This mix clearly shows that the Professor did not require the holders of his special title to be from the homeland, as only two are from there. On his last trip to the PI, Professor promoted several of the older students there to 8th degree. NONE were made Datu. Maybe because although they were all excellent arnisadors they did not have the qualities that Professor was looking for in a Datu.
From what knowledge I have gathered on this, it is the task of the Datu's to continue to not only preserve Modern Arnis but to stretch it's limits and to keep it an ever changing and growing art. If you look at the personalties of those chosen to be Datu you can see the connection. All are outspoken, confident and moving in all different directions while still holding on to what they learned from the Professor.
If any of the Datu are promoted to any rank up to but not including tenth (reserve this one for Professor) it is well within their right, no mater how they see fit to do so. They are the movers and shakers of the art and promotions are just part of the mix. All they are doing is continuing the natural order of things.

I have met and trained with three of them and I look foreword to some day seeing the others and to learn from them.
:asian:

 

[Mark Lynn]

Interesting thread

FWIW it does appear that Terry does have an axe to grind (for what ever reason) with Tim Hartman. Or he is just trying to stir up a debate on this board. Which he seems quite good at, however he does bring forth some good points to ponder on the whole rank issue.

Different people will feel differently about it and everybody will never be able to be satisfied with the end product or result.

An Isshin ryu instructor that I know told me that when Sensei Simabuku (the arts founder) died, that after he passed away his students here in America had the same problem so they went about the promotion in the same manner as Datu Hartman did. So again what came about with Datu Hartman has been done before.

If I remember right from a discussion we had, he trained under two instructors who were high ranked Isshin ryu instructors who had studied under the founder for many years. When the founder died his instructors froze their ranks, he was graded up as high they could grade him and that was it. And frankly that was as high as he cared to go.

I was helping teach an American TKD class at this Isshin ryu school. And the head owner/instructor and the American TKD class and I went to a tournament. Our discussion came about due to the host of the tournament had on his trophies Grandmaster ******. This in a sense offended the Isshinryu instructor because who made this guy a GM. Well it was a board of his peers (other American instructors) who felt this instructor should be recgonized as a GM and they did it. (This backs up what the WMAA did with Datu Hartman again.) However the Isshin ryu instructor asked me about it, we discussed it and left it at that. (He felt like Terry does.) He didn't ***** and moan about it (although not like Terry does ) he just didn't like it.

To this instructor rank wasn't important, in fact he didn't care about it really. All he wanted to do was teach and practice what he loved the most, Isshin ryu and all else paled in comparison. In fact he lost money on his school for several years (he was in a financial position to do this) (I couldn't do it) just so he would have a place to train and teach other people. However in time he ended up having to sell the place and setting up a dojo at his house for his serious students.

However the other side of the coin is this. Datu Hartman, just like this other GM I was talking about both run large organizations and both spread their respected arts, influencing hundereds, thousands, of individuals. In thier systems they have many students/instructors under them who (I'm sure) derive some financial gain from the organizations, and to whom in turn they pay fees to be associated with and use the associations materials and such. Which were developed by these senior instructors. So now there is a money interest in this. Since money enters the picture there is the responsibility on the organization to continue to grow/expand and thereby compete with other organizations of the like in the world. And part of that will be in time promote and grow in rank.

Battery is dieing
don't want to lose the post

With respect
Mark

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Actually, Tim was promoted sometime before Professor passed away to 6th, so I believe it was closer to 4 years between 6th and 7th, maybe longer.

Regardless, anything longer then 3 years between rank is not a "too fast" of a promotion, in my opinion.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by moromoro
so in 3 years you went from a 6th degree black belt to a 7th degree black belt?????????????

pretty fast isnt it?

Hi Terry,

Your reference for number of years needed for promotion from one lakan grade to another is in the book Modern Arnis Philippine Martial art "stick Fighting" by Remy Presas, chapter titled Ranking Of Players In Arnis.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
This thread has gone into two directions.

2. Calling my promotion a McDojo promotion as stated by Moro Moro.


Respectfully,
Datu Tim Hartman
World Modern Arnis Alliance

:asian:

Tim McHartman...Hmmmmm...I didn't know you were Irish.

Yours,
Dan McAnderson

 

[dearnis.com]

Tim McHartman...Hmmmmm...I didn't know you were Irish.

Well, he wishes....

:rofl:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Your reference for number of years needed for promotion from one lakan grade to another is in the book Modern Arnis Philippine Martial art "stick Fighting" by Remy Presas, chapter titled Ranking Of Players In Arnis.

According to my copy:

Each rank, from Lakan-Isa (or Dayang-Isa) to Lakan-Anim (or Dayang-Anim) can be awarded after every 2 years of continuous study and practice of the art. Lakan-Pito to Lakan-Sampu will be awarded after every 3 years of continuous study of the art.

(Emphasis added; pg. 159 of my copy.) Other comments are clearly no longer relevant. The book emphasises Modern Arnis as a sport and says, e.g., that competition in tournaments is required of those holding lakan rank if they wish to advance. I suspect moromoro and thekuntawman will agree with that advice but in my experience the Prof. never taught that tournament fighting was even a part of Modern Arnis. Mr. Hartman and I would spar one another on our own but it never happened in a supervised (by the Prof.) setting.

 

[moromoro]

hi guys iam sorry for the title of this thread

this was a mistake and i have apologize for it

yes dan i have the book and iam looking at it now. it also states the "that all ranks in the lakan category will be awarded only after it is proven that the practitioner has conducted himself ably and expertly in tournaments".

did the Prof change his mind about tournaments???


JUST ONE MORE POINT IF, SHOULDNT DAN HAVE GOTTEN THAT 7TH DEGREE WAY before you tim.

'ONLY ONE HOLDS THE RANK OF LAKAN SAMPU, REMY A PRESAS, THE AUTHOR OF THIS BOOK".

NOW will this change or does the WMAA have plans to promote you tim to 10 degree???? if current trends continue you should be there by 2012 or before..........

my final point is, i dont care if any one gets a lakan sampu in MA, (one guy already has it doesnt he )

i just want to know whay so soon between grade from the wmaa, when the prof would wait many years usually...

thanks



terry

 

[bloodwood]

The average time between promotions by the Professor, for active upper belt students was three years. Datu and other special titles were as he saw fit, with no regard for time. The WMAA is following that guideline that the Professor used. I see no problem with it. Life goes on. To freeze rank where it was when the Professor passed would be counter productive to propagating the art as was the Professor's way.

 

[moromoro]

The average time between promotions by the Professor, for active upper belt students was three years.

OK.

Dan what about you, if you where graded to 6 degree in 92 and are with out a doudt the most senior of US senior grades in the art, did you feel it was unnessasary to be graded again or was this the prof choice??????

if what bloodwood is saying is correct then you should be comming to 9th now?

also bloodwood if the prof would religiously grade upper grade students every 3 years you would have a lot more high level degrees out there!!!!

is bloodwoods statement correct?


thanks

terry

 

[bloodwood]

also bloodwood if the prof would religiously grade upper grade students every 3 years you would have a lot more high level degrees out there!!!!

This was not the case with all upper belts, just those that the Professor saw on a regular basis. This was the average timeline he used but is was not set in stone. The Professor, like his art, was go with the flow and nothing he did was rigid or set in stone.
On several occasions he has taken off his own belt and given it to someone and promoted them on the spot regardless of the time of their last promotion. However the Professor is gone and we do need some guidline for promotions. The WMAA seems to be doing the right thing. They are also the first to do such a promotion following the Professor's passing, so they will take most of the heat. They have paved the way for others to move on.