Five forms to Black Belt

[Rob_Broad]

Has any of the members here checked out James Ibrao's new video course Five Forms to Black Belt. I have heard some good things from people eho have emailed him and phone him about the course. they are still waiting for their free preview tape. does anybody have any news on this course?

The forms are Gom Gong Kuen, Si Ping Kuen, Book Set (Bun Gi), Gung Gi, and Tiger and Crane.

What does everyone think about learning 5 forms to become a black belt.

Here is the URL
http://www.thebelt.com

 

[GouRonin]

The ranking system and structure is seriously flawed in North America.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

What does everyone think about learning 5 forms to become a black belt.

I understand that in olden times it was common for a karateka to know only 3 or perhaps 5 forms, and to say that it sufficed to know one well.

I would think that 5 forms would be plenty if one trained the techniques in them properly. What isn't clear to me is that one gets more than the forms--one needs exercises and drills for working with partners and for developing attributes as they say.

I can't say that the name of the system, 5 FORMS TO BLACK (BELT), is very appealing however.

 

[GouRonin]

...that Ed Parker said that if a person knew his system's Long 4 form, backwards and forewards, then he would hang a black belt on that person anyday.

 

[Rob_Broad]

I have learned Tiger and Crane, and I will tell you it is a major form in itself. When doen properly it is Tiger section, Crane section, and then Tiger section again. It hold many basics, and is quite hard. I have heard of chinese schools that have this as the only requirement for their white sash(Black Belt).

 

[John_Boy]

Wing Chun only has 3 forms (empty hand), BUT there is a whole lot of other stuff that is learned and developed along with that. I think one of the keys is how the forms are trained and what else goes into your develpment....if there is more than those five forms...should it be called Five Forms (and other stuff)to Blackbelt?

Just kidding of course about the last line...

 

[Rob_Broad]

I do believe from what i read on the site that the forms are the entire curriculum. Of course you are taught the basics to do the forms on that tape. But the primary criteria is the Five Forms

 

[GouRonin]

In some styles forms were how they passed the style down. It was a way to remember the art. However they spent long hours working the forms and it's mechanics.

 

[Rob_Broad]

With a style like the Five Forms to Black Belt, I believe you are expected to have a very strong grasp of all the mechanics of the form. James Ibrao has always had high standards so I believe he will be watching the submissions with a very keen eye.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by John_Boy
Wing Chun only has 3 forms (empty hand), BUT there is a whole lot of other stuff that is learned and developed along with that. I think one of the keys is how the forms are trained and what else goes into your develpment....if there is more than those five forms...should it be called Five Forms (and other stuff)to Blackbelt?

Just kidding of course about the last line...

Actually, Yip Man Wing Chun only has 3 empty hand forms, 2 weapons forms, and a set of movements on the wooden dummy that can be considered a form. There is one form of Wing Chun that only teaches a set (I think around 40 or so) of self-defense movements and other forms of Wing Chun with quite a few more forms than three.

This info is from Complete Wing Chun, by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, & Y. Wu. I got lucky, my library had a copy. Check your library. Lots of neat information in that little book.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu

This info is from Complete Wing Chun, by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie, & Y. Wu. I got lucky, my library had a copy. Check your library. Lots of neat information in that little book.

Sounds interesting, thanks. I am interested in this issue of how many forms various styles of kung fu have (just curiousity). I know that southern praying mantis also has from 3 to many depending on the substyle.

Just one set of 40 self-defense movements! Many would agree that less can be more. When I see kung fu systems with dozens of forms I ask myself if any one person can truly learn and integrate all those movements into a system that works for them. I imagine they draw a substyle of their own from them and transmit the forms as an encyclopedia for the next person to draw from, with the thought that they may take something very different from them.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador


Sounds interesting, thanks. I am interested in this issue of how many forms various styles of kung fu have (just curiousity). I know that southern praying mantis also has from 3 to many depending on the substyle.

Just one set of 40 self-defense movements! Many would agree that less can be more. When I see kung fu systems with dozens of forms I ask myself if any one person can truly learn and integrate all those movements into a system that works for them. I imagine they draw a substyle of their own from them and transmit the forms as an encyclopedia for the next person to draw from, with the thought that they may take something very different from them.

It's a good book with a lot of good information. It covers the origins (or reputed origins) of each of the subsystems featured and contrasts and compares them. I may end up buying it, since I neglected to take notes and now I can't find the damn thing. I think I posted the ISBN in the library forum some time back. I may have even put a review up. Can't remember.

Okinawa-te has 12 short forms (now, only 6 are being taught. Damn stupid, if you ask me. Anyone I teach is learning all 12, like it or not!) and reportedly has 36 kata. Considering the first kata has over 90 techniques/movements, it's safe to say that nobody (except maybe Doversola) knows them all. Fortunately, the bulk of the system is in that first kata, the short forms, and the second kata. Furthermore, there are many movements in the kata that have plenty of room for personal expression, so some parts of the kata vary from person to person.

After having learned the kata, I don't mind them so much. While I was learning them, I definitely thought less was more

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Okinawa-te has 12 short forms (now, only 6 are being taught. Damn stupid, if you ask me. Anyone I teach is learning all 12, like it or not!) and reportedly has 36 kata.

Would we recognize their names or are they idiosyncratic to the system? I don't ever recall learning a kata that was that long.

Searching...from Black Belt:
The Okinawa-te katas have unusual and beautiful names, like "The Falling Leaf," "The Bear," "The Python," "The Spearless Spear," and "The Tiger." Each specific kata is described by its title—for instance in the Bear kata the performer's movements resemble those of a bear. In the Python kata his hands are like the heads of two snakes.

There is a link at the bottom of the page to some kata pictures.

 

[Cthulhu]

That's from an OLD Black Belt article. The pictures aren't really related to any kata I know of.

The two required kata are Sword & Hammer (unrelated to the kenpo thingy) and Falling Leaf. Falling Leaf is first learned empty hand and later with sai. There is also another required weapon form called Yawara, using a short club, but it's very short compared to S&H. S&H has around 90 moves, and Falling Leaf around 60-70.

Another difference is that, in general, Okinawa-te forms do not start and stop in the same spot, like most traditional karate/TKD forms. We face the same direction at start and finish, but end up in a different spot.

Basically, you kind of have to see them to appreciate the differences

Cthulhu

 

[warriorsage]

Hey there cthulhu, where do you study Okinawa Te and who with? I trained for about 15 months under Richard Triplett and thought it was a wonderful art. Gotta love that Sword & Hammer. I couldn't believe it was the first kata in the system. Drop me an email ([email protected]) if you'd like or post here.

 

[Cthulhu]

I trained under Sensei Charles Kindall while he was stationed in Florida during his time in the U.S.A.F. He is currently back in California, and I believe he's now training with Larry Delano, though he was with Mike Pecina for a while.

I'll drop you an e-mail soon.

Cthulhu

PS - Yeah, S&H is a bit much for a first kata

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by GouRonin
...that Ed Parker said that if a person knew his system's Long 4 form, backwards and forewards, then he would hang a black belt on that person anyday.

I think Mr. Planas said this in the Journey.

Long 4 has about 20 techniques according to Mr. Billings' website
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/
and was taught to me as the key form in the entire system.

I think on the 24 EPAK technique curriculum, if you just count the forms (no sets, no separate techniques-they are largely in the forms anyway), there are 5 Forms as well but some of them come in Long and Short versions.
Long and Short 1
Long and Short 2
Long and Short 3
Long 4
Long 5

So while I thought "5 Forms to Black" Sounded really stupid, I guess Mr. Parker only had 5 forms to Black as well.

Odd. Very interesting. Something to meditate on. What if you had a Kenpo School and only required the forms. Would you then require that each person be able to do the form against attackers?
And explain exactly what was going on?
Would you teach it this way from the beginning?
Would it be much different than what goes on now?
I have not done an analysis but does anyone know if all 154 (base) techniques are accounted for in the forms? I know they are not present in the forms with their extensions and I know the form versions vary very slightly from the Self-Defense techniques as well.
Interesting. :idunno:

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by cdhall
I think Mr. Planas said this in the Journey.

Long 4 has about 20 techniques according to Mr. Billings' website
http://www.kenpo-texas.com/
and was taught to me as the key form in the entire system.

I think on the 24 EPAK technique curriculum, if you just count the forms (no sets, no separate techniques-they are largely in the forms anyway), there are 5 Forms as well but some of them come in Long and Short versions.
Long and Short 1
Long and Short 2
Long and Short 3
Long 4
Long 5

So while I thought "5 Forms to Black" Sounded really stupid, I guess Mr. Parker only had 5 forms to Black as well.

Odd. Very interesting. Something to meditate on. What if you had a Kenpo School and only required the forms. Would you then require that each person be able to do the form against attackers?
And explain exactly what was going on?
Would you teach it this way from the beginning?
Would it be much different than what goes on now?
I have not done an analysis but does anyone know if all 154 (base) techniques are accounted for in the forms? I know they are not present in the forms with their extensions and I know the form versions vary very slightly from the Self-Defense techniques as well.
Interesting. :idunno:

Keen observation man!!! You learn something new eveyday! Glad you pointed that out to me! I think in the Q and A thread Mr. C was once asked if he could only take a few things from Kenpo what would they be and he listed the forms maybe there is a little something to that

 

[cdhall]

Thanks, Brian.
It was a revelation to me as well.
:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

In Kenpo, as in most "Chinese" systems, the core of the system is found in its forms. They may not include the long versions of the techniques, but the core will surely be there and the rest could be extrapolated.

I agree with Dennis... If you were limitedin what you could take from the system, the forms would be my number one on every list I made.

Dan