Female patrons

Discussion in 'Security and Bouncers' started by JizzyB, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. JizzyB

    JizzyB White Belt

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    Hi guys, i'm relatively new to the forum so i hope this hasnt been covered already.

    i'm currently working as a 'bouncer' at the moment, and was just wondering if anyone had any advice on dealing with difficult female patrons (ie, not responding to verbal commands etc). i've had a few instances where i've had to get physical with a few, and to be honest i dont really like it. anyone have any advice or techniques for when they arent co-operative??

    PS i've never assaulted one, and never will, im not that kind of guy, even just physically removing them makes me a tad uncomfortable.

    cheers.
     
  2. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Suggest to the club you bounce at to hire a few female bouncers. Other then that, the same limb restraints will work, if male or female. [​IMG]
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You will have to treat them the same as if they were male. If they are kicking off they have to be treated in the same way, as seasoned said the restraints work on limbs not limbs by gender.
    However women will often fight more than men so be prepared to be kicked in the groin (learn to avoid), they will go for the eyes as well as scratch and bite. You also have to keep an eye out for males who want to 'defend' a female. Often though you will find it the other way around, you will be dealing with a bloke and his female will start on you as well. The worse scenario is when you try to separate a warring couple often where the woman is being hit and the pair of them turn on you, that's a bit weird and very off putting.

    Drunk women are awful, I always get them as my male colleagues pass them on to me. Try to have a colleague with you when you deal with women, not always possible but always good to have a witness.
     
  4. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    In your job, when words stop working -- you have to change tactics. And that may mean going hands-on. You just have to accept the reality of that, whether the problem person is male or female, young or old.

    However, in a situation like that, often you can prevent the problem by acting a little earlier. Rather than waiting till they're worked up, a quiet reminder or nudge earlier can prevent them from slipping so far out of line...
     
  5. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    If someone be they male or female is attacking you or assaulting you they become an it and you should defend yourself.

    If you have to initiate to get them moving, I have found in the past all I had to say, was yes I know you are a woman, but right now you are acting like a man, and a man in this situation would already be on the ground or at least hit. So understand that being female no longer counts. (* Step back at that point and give them plenty of room and say *), Now will you please leave before I have to do my job and you will not like what happens.

    Most women will respond IF and only IF you really mean it. See first comment above. You have treat them as the it that is going to hurt someone else or themselves or get you fired and you loose income for yourself and your family. They are the problem, if they had being behaving properly for society then you would not be required to talk to them other than to ask for an ID as they walk in. If you make them believe you will touch them the verbal does work, but it no longer is the polite please move along and treating them like a lady. You are now treating them like a spoiled brat and you need to make sure they are going to be punished worse if they do not comply with your simple request.

    By stepping back you have conceded the floor to them. It is not a threat, just a statement. They see the opening and most times people will take the opening to leave.

    Of course there are always exceptions, and if you handle it well and quickly by controlling them without breaking them, the word will get around that you are not the person to push.


    A separate thread though would address reputations and those who show up to test themselves against you. This is why I said handled properly and quickly a without breaking them. If you get them out the door people will see that you did it quickly and with no fuss and no blood.

    Good Luck
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Do you have any training for being a 'bouncer'? Here now you have to be trained and have a licence to do door work, they aren't even called bouncers anymore, it's door supervisor. Not a bad thing changing the name and bringing in professional standards, you can't have a licence if you have any sort of criminal record. The training consists of conflict management, fire safety etc. It would help you deal with all sorts of people not just women, I don't know what training is available outside the UK though.
    http://www.sia.homeoffice.gov.uk/Pages/training-ds.aspx
     
  7. Yoshin9

    Yoshin9 Yellow Belt

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    It is sexest to treat females different than males in your workplace.
     
  8. mook jong man

    mook jong man Senior Master

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    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    learn sticky or sticking hands concepts, in a hurry.
    Sean
     
  10. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    You've got some great people answering your question already, each with a lifetime more knowledge I have but the only point I'd like to add to what Seasoned &Tez3 said is that while the basic limb controls are the same, you should factor in the range of motion of your opponents limbs. For instance when training in the dojo environment I tend to find that my locks don't work as well on a female opponent because I'm not torquing her elbow enough etc. I'm the same as you in that I don't like physically handling women in a violent sense, whether it's to hit or otherwise control but am learning to accept that it's a mindset. A threat is a threat no matter what race, age, gender etc.
     
  11. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    When they become a problem, they lose the privileges I might ordinarily give their gender. When they become violent or combative... they get dealt with.

    I'm old fashioned; I respect women. But I don't let that respect keep me from doing my job, whether that's using force to control them or conducting an effective search. Given a choice, I like to have someone else with me (reduces allegations...) and ideally, a female officer conduct the search.
     
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  12. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    Agreed JKS, hence the mindset comment. It's something I'm working on slowly but surely in a safe training environment and hopefully I never need to use it in the real world but if I did, the training would have helped and I'd remove that distinction subconsciously.

    As an LEO, what are your thoughts on my comment about the range of motion being different from men and women though? Am I right in that as a general rule or is that really just individual cases?
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Ranges of motion for joint locks are really individual things... Lots of women do seem to have some more joint flexibility, especially in the arms. Some have suggested it's due to hooking bras meaning that they actually stretch their arms daily in ways that us guys don't.

    In my opinion and experience, applying joint locks requires a lot sensitivity and paying attention, as well as flexibility on your part to react to changes. Let's take the simple, common wrist lock/gooseneck/come-along hold. Some people, you have to almost take the wrist all the way up to their neck in back; others, barely need to move the hand to the back. Look for them to react, rising up or pulling away from the lock. Other locks have different "signals", but they're all variants on efforts to relieve the pain/stress on the joint induced by the lock. Look for that reaction, and if it doesn't come quickly enough -- move to another technique or option.
     
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  14. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    Thanks for that :) The reason I ask is because I'm considering getting a security licence and doing some work in that field in my spare time. Door work to be specific so that type of knowledge from someone who uses it first hand is invaluable.
     
  15. JizzyB

    JizzyB White Belt

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    thanks guys, all the insight is very much appreciated.

    it is very helpful to know that most of you feel the same, in the sense that once they start acting up everyone gets treated the same.

    in regards to witnesses, i always make sure there is another guard, or if not available, another staff member witnessing all evictions i do (except in the rare instances when there is no time, u just have to get into it). also, most of my venues have cameras, so i'm sure to give lots of verbal and physical indicators as it helps my case. also, i document all evictions i perform when physical force is used, as it is a legal requirement.

    once again, many thanks for the insight into the wonderful world of difficult people, i'm sure we'll all have some more experience with them soon :)
     
  16. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    It's been my experience that range of motion is hugely associated with gender.

    The same compliance holds that would have many large men screaming for mommy, will fail to work on many women as they have a much larger range of motion.......many times you can push a woman's arms up near her shoulder blades, and cause no pain, and also she'll be able to scratch, claw and try to hit you in the groin.

    With some women it's better to simply grab their arms and physically restrain them using muscle, as they have less muscle strength but greater range of motion........pick them up and physically carry them out.........and remember they will claw, bite, spit and go for the groin.

    The other issue with women is that you have a much greater chance of involving other patrons once you put your hands on her.......it may be male friends of hers, or just men wanting to be 'good samaritans' trying to help a lady out........so be aware that culturally men want to jump to the aid of women.......that will complicate the situation.
     
  17. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Reminds me of one young lady I arrested... She'd been causing enough problems at home that her folks finally obtained a petition and detention order for her. I was the lucky cop who got to serve it... I cuffed her, but she wasn't going to walk out. So I ended up literally picking her up and carrying her to the squad car... in her fuzzy pink bunny slippers!
     
  18. Supra Vijai

    Supra Vijai Black Belt

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    That must have made a great kodak moment :lol:
     
  19. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    I've been there a few times.......women will just drop their weight and make you carry them while they're yelling, screaming, scratching, clawing and biting.

    Most men you can motivate to walk with an escort hold........which doesn't work on many women.

    Then you run in to problems with very petite women where the handcuffs are too big, and they are able to slip out of them.........and many women are able to quickly slip the cuffs around front.
     
  20. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    I had a classmate in the academy who was extremely petite... There were only two ways to cuff her: flex cuffs, or put both hands in one cuff. Otherwise, the single strap would just slip all the way through past the end of the ratchets, and she could still get out.

    And I got chewed out for being nice to a role player during a practical. Another thin wristed female, and I didn't ratchet the cuffs down through. (Still think she could have gotten out of 'em...)

    I have found that some pressure points can be very effective on females, like just above and inside the elbow, or the side of the bicep. Of course, YMMV...
     

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