FASD Street Fighting Strategy

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by First Action, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    Oh for goodness sakes, you are selling books to advise others on "how to fight"?!?! You are not qualified to do so. Your advise will get someone hurt. That makes you a fraud. I know that is harsh, but it is the reality of it. Either your ego or your drive to sell your non-expert opinion books has driven you to put yourself forward as something you are not. You are putting ill informed people who take your advice seriously at risk. If someone gets into a violent confrontation and uses much of what you suggest, they are going to be injured...or killed. Really think about that. It is something anyone who teaches self defense should put a lot of thought into. Remove the motivations for what you are doing. Look at the feedback you are recieving from experienced martial artist (some VERY experienced) and LEOs. Then ask yourself if your conscience will be effected if someone is injured or even killed because they followed your advice. Teaching others to "defend" themselves is a HUGE responsibility. You are abdicating that responsibility if you do so without having the proper foundation yourself to do so.
     
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  2. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    Ok, I’m gonna take my hand at your briefarticle and try and be as fair as possible to you. You’ll still likely heresome of the things already said, but maybe hearing it from someone else willhelp you understand it better. I know for me, sometimes I have to hearsomething explained dozens of times before I finally start to comprehend it.

    That said here I go.

    “Wheneverfaced with more than one opponent, the threat level goes up exponentially.Escape is the only priority. It is not a time to test your skills and try totake them all out.”

    Yes, more attackers mean a greater threat.Especially if they are armed, and if they plan on committing violence theyprobably will be. Escape should be the only priority in any SD scenario, orelse it isn’t really SD. No SD scenario should never be the time to “test yourskills”, but by suggesting these…behaviors, you have listed, you areessentially encouraging people to try these suggestions instead of just runningthe hell away. It’s irresponsible.

    “Ifall they want to do is *take your wallet then you’re probably better off justhanding it over”

    Ok. This is rather obvious, but some peopledo lack common sense so maybe it is worth saying after all.

    “ Inany case, do your best not to get surrounded and create as much distance as youcan between you and the attackers. As always, protect your back, and as soon asyou see a chance for escape, take it.”

    How?
    This is where you show your level ofinexperience and why you should not be suggesting anything. You give no exampleon how someone can do these things.Telling people “not to get surrounded” and “create as much distance as you can”is more common sense. People will do this naturally as they flee, but if youare advocating needing to actually fight the attackers, how do you advise doingthis? And what do you mean by “protect your back”? If I’m not surrounded, whyis this important, and how should someone properly do this?

    “Ifa non-violent attempt at escape fails, and physical conflict is inevitable,then you should not hold back. Fight as if your life depends on it (as it verymay will) until you feel you can safely escape.”

    This really depends on the situation. Fightfor your life could be good advice, but it might not be for legal reasons. Youwould be surprised how easily one could escalate a low level assault to abattery with a deadly weapon simply by using excessive force. This advice, likemost the advice you give, is vague and rather meaningless.

    “Facingone opponent at a time is obviously easier so if you can, line them up. Usefootwork and your surrounding environment (including them) can aid you”

    I actually agree that it is possible to stackaggressors into single file lines for split seconds of time. What you do whiledoing that is rather important, and lacking in your description here. Again,like before, you give no examples on how to do this. That leads me to believeyou don’t know, and if you don’t know you should not be presenting yourselflike someone who does.

    “Keep moving and work to the flanks.”

    You lost me here. If you are trying to linethem up, you ideally should be breaking the first person and moving through theline. If they flank you then they swarm you.

    “BasicFASD Strategy states that in a life threateningsituation you should first try to use a weapon.”

    What kind of weapon? How should I use it?Where can I get it? If I am successful what happens next?

    “Considerthe following: If you are disarmed then it is more likely that it will be usedagainst you than if you had not picked it up in the first place.”

    You just contradicted yourself.
    You basically said, “Grab a weapon first, butremember they will probably try to take it from you and use it on you. So, nevermind.”

    “Ifyou are proficient in weaponry and/or they are already using weapons, then yourdecision will be easier.”

    How do you define proficiency? Andhere is something you might want to remember. Major decisions on how you planto respond to conflict need to be made before the conflict occurs not during.Your brain will not be able to process such things under the stress of violenceconfrontation fast enough for them to actually matter.

    “Itis very hard to fight more than one person if you are tangled up, so avoidgrappling, and especially being taken to the ground.”

    Nearly all violent confrontations that I haveseen, heard about, or experienced involved grappling of some kind. It reallydepends here what you mean by grappling. There are some instances where it mayeven be the preferred method. There are a lot of variances to your scenariohere, and you are not in position to advocate anything to anyone.

    “Thismeans that you need to take care of your balance more than usual, sounnecessary kicking should not be employed.”

    Again there are variances. Kicking could be possible and recommended dependingon a lot of things, or it could be unrealistic and ill-advised in othercircumstances. You are not experiencedto know when to do something and when not to do it, you should not be giving adviceon self-defense or fighting, because you do not understand them.
    If you think you do understand them, I, among others, wouldlike to know where you base your authority in these subjects.
     
  3. First Action

    First Action Orange Belt

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    Hi Chris,

    Replying to posts of this nature takes up time that I feel could be better spent else where. Im not saying that it is not a valuable use of time (I do learn alot and my ideas have been challenged and it has forced me to re-consider my points of views), just that there are other areas that this takes time away from and I should give them some attention.

    So in the hope of ending this thread I am going to address what I feel are your main points of view as a whole.

    I've also decided to include some things for you to think about. They are just my opinions. I am not after a responce, but should you feel the need to, I will read them.

    1. I don't understand the core of what you are trying to tell me. Also the statements about me having no skill, I don't know how to teach etc fit into this.

    How can you possibly know what I do or do not understand, how skilled of a fighter I am, if I understand teaching principles etc. You have no basis for these things. You've never seen me fight or teach (the videos are not an accurate representation) and there is no way you can possibly know if another I have understood something or not.

    For You: Perhaps you are the one that doesn't understand my points of view. It seems, as of late, that you reply to me with the initial outset of 'shooting me down', and hence, much like a scientist that wants to prove a theory, you 'manipulate the results' to match your thoughts, as opposed to viewing each idea objectively.

    In the case that you are right and I do not understand, at least I am open minded engough to try to.

    2. What I base my information on.

    Belive it or not, I dont just make things up out of the blue. I've done alot of research over the years, probably more than most, and all information has come from somewhere. In regard to the tactics of the post, in particular lining them up and avoiding grappling, the same information came from 2 resources that I highly respect ie My Zen Do Kai instructor (as a youth), and my MSD instuctor (as an adult). These tactics have been employed, with success, by me and other practitioners in quite realistic training in the military, and in less realistic training but still valid, in Zen Do Kai. I have also had to employ it once 'for real'

    Note: When I used it 'for real' I was a youth as were the attackers, and I admit the result was different than in Zen Do Kai training, but i am sure I faired better using them than if I didnt.

    For You: One of the disciplines I highly regard is ninjitsu. This is mainly due to the fact that the teachings extend to things such as conceilment, survival etc, but I have also integrated some of their fighting techniques and tactics. So when you say that ALL of my ideas are 'rubbish', it re-instates my thoughts on you not understanding the essence of FASD, or bothered to look into it from an objective perspecive.

    Also, please consider this. Is what you teach still true to the art of Ninjitsu? ... It is my understanding that they also practised methods of espionage, pyrotechnics, survival skills etc. Do you teach these things? If not, then perhaps what your school actually offers is Ninjukai, and even then, do you accurately represent the essence of that? After all, they were Japanese Assasins.

    FASD Fight Training may not be a correct representation of 'Self Defense', but at least I have realised that and am making changes.

    Note: These are rhetorical questions/statements and have only been made to enhance my point of view. I have no doubt that what your 'school' teaches are extremely valuable lessons and disciplines for your students.

    3. That I live in a deluded fantasy world

    I am certain views on the way the universe works. They may not match yours, but they are my core values which have been formulated in a deep way. Im am more aware of my reality than most of the general population. For example:

    - I have the mindset of constant learning and improvement. When people tell me something is wrong, I learn and improve. Also, I do not mind sharing ideas, even if they are bad, because if I dont, then nobody will ever tell me they are bad. (I recall a whole subject thread on how I wanted peoples opinions to help improve my ideas).

    - I believe that if you wait for things to be perfect before you start them, then you may never get started. Which is another reason why there are concepts on the site which I can change in good conscience. Its also why there is a 4th edition to the manual, and why the editions will continue to refined and updated.

    There are a few others. If your interested you can PM me.

    For You: You seem fine to shoot down my ideas, but you offer no constructive alternatives (recently). Eg How do you train your periphial vision? What tactics would you use against multiple opponents? Etc.

    Perhaps you are worried that people will disagree, therefore tainting you reputation? I have no reputation that I wish to uphold. I don't really care if no-one buys my materials or takes my courses. It does not effect my lifestyle. FASD is something I have created, believe in, and want to improve and share, but there is no other dependance on its success.

    4. My content is dangerous. I feel this is your main concern.

    I think you (and many others) think that (I have simplified this) I just show people techniques and tactics and then tell them to go fight without trying to escape in other ways first. This is not true. There are 3 avenues in which people can learn about FASD, and I will address them individually

    a) Training Manuals: You have only read one chapter of this. Pre-empting the chapter you read, there are also chapters on use of force (ie the law), safety in training, disclaimers, methods of escape etc.

    b) Courses. You can rest assured that I actually dont hold very many courses, and when I do, unlike most 'schools', I pick whom I teach, and I don't teach those that I think will mis-use the information.

    c) Blog. This one I can not justify. It is open source. Contrary to your advice, I am not going to take the website down. What I will do is put a disclaimer on the blog. Something along the lines of "this information has been called dangerous, be aware of laws, is for training only etc etc". Actually, I'll probably just use the disclaimer that is in the manual.

    I hope that some of these things have answered your 'concerns'. Like I said at the beginning, I wish to end this thread, but I will check back in case there are any other major points you wish to make publically. Other than that, feel free to PM me questions, or begin a new topical thread and pm me the link.

    Incidently, although I disagree with some of your points of view, I appreciate your honesty and that you take the time to challenge me. It shows you care about the things you believe in and is commendable.

    Finally for you enjoyment, and since it seems to come up alot, I have also attached a detailed description of my experiences. I spent a while putting it together so as to be completly honest and accurate. As such, it will be on the website in due time so readers can also deliberate on it before deciding whether FASD is worth their time.

    .. turns out I cant add attachments. Ill put in html and give post the address shortly

    Thanks
     
  4. First Action

    First Action Orange Belt

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    Hi Himura. I wasnt going to reply to anything more on this apart from the post I just did, but I appreciate you taking the time and you are coming from a helpful place, so thank you. I hope it is ok, I am only going to respond to some thing ie not things I agree with or have been covered before. Also, i think there are a few things that are covered in the above post so Ill skip them also.


    I had a skim of this post before replying so I think this comes up a couple of times. Explaining everything in detail was not the intention of this post. That is what the manual is for. I suppose an intro chapter explaining this (which admittedly could probably be put on many of my posts) could solve this confusion.

    I beleive this is sound advice. Perhaps it needs to be clarafied a bit more in the post

    The important words are 'consider this'. It implies to think about things for yourself and make your own decision about what you would do in any given situation.


    It is up to the reader to decide. If they do indeed feel they are proficient then they obviously (hopefully) have trained with weapons. A big part of FASD fighting is for the practitioner to make informed decisions based upon basic principles. It is in the spririt that they should train in those things that work best for them (depending on any number of variables). This too is explained in the manual.

    Yes, that it why they should consider it.

    Thanks again for bringing up some new things for me to consider.
     
  5. First Action

    First Action Orange Belt

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  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hi.

    And I thought you said you had a few weeks rest, so had nothing better to do? Really?

    Oh, and you don't get to decide when the thread ends, you realize....

    I've read your posts. They are filled with evidence as to the lack of depth of your education. I've seen your videos. You have no technical ability whatsoever. I've read your blogs. They are littered with poor tactical ideas and misunderstandings.

    In other words, I got that impression from you. And yeah, I get that you don't understand what you're being told. That's a big part of the problem, and again, a lot of evidence of why you shouldn't be trying to teach anyone. But hey, it's not just me. If it was, you'd have some basis of just not understanding what I am telling you, but it seems to be across the board(s)...

    http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/t8735-fasd-street-fighting-strategy

    http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/t8740-ways-to-escape-without-fighting

    http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/t8728-basic-footwork

    http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/t8725-shin-kick-and-short-side-kick

    http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/t8739-i-want-to-harvest-your-knowledge-help-me-improve-my-system

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114343

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114373

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114371

    Seriously, everywhere you go, people are telling you that you shouldn't be teaching, or offering advice in this subject at all. Do you really think that everyone is wrong, and you must be right?

    I haven't needed to "manipulate" anything, mate. See above.

    So... when you said "some of it I make up", that didn't mean that you made it up?

    Look, the way your material reads is that you've come across some real, correct material, but haven't understood it. As a result, when you present it, you miss the reality of it, and we get what you present for us, which is deeply and desperately flawed.

    Oh, for crying out loud, kid. No, the ninja were NOT Japanese assassins... and you have no clue whatsoever about Ninjutsu. So what you "highly regard" is something you have no understanding of, nor any clue about.

    And don't damn well mention Ang's Ninjukai in relation to what I do. Kay?

    But, to the point, your FASD "Fight Training" is bad self defence, and bad "fight training". And, as long as you don't get any real education, it really can't be any more than that. And, being that, it is dangerous (for potential students who believe that what you're teaching is good, valid material).

    See above, kid. Pretty much everywhere you go, you are told that you don't have a clue, your advice is dangerous and bad, you are desperately unqualified, and more. You somehow still think that you know what you're talking about. Tell me, how is that not delusional?

    Damn right I don't. As long as you continue to put yourself in a position as a teacher, and continue to show such a deep lack of understanding of what you're being told, refuse to get proper training, then no, I'm not about to provide you with material for you to profit off of without you having any real comprehension of it.

    And I'm hardly worried about people disagreeing with me. I've shared enough over my time here and in other places to know that that's not the case. Hell, my pointing out your shortcomings, and the agreement from my fellow forum members here is more than enough to show that my ideas are far more in line with what is known by people who know what they're talking about. But if you don't care if people don't buy your material, or attend your courses etc, then why do you insist on having them? In the end, though, if you really, genuinely want to improve this little creation of yours, get a real education in the subject! It's that simple!

    No, that's not what we think. We think that the tactics you teach, the "techniques" you show, and so on, are deeply flawed, and dangerous to be employed. And what on earth do you mean when you say your own blog you "cannot justify"?!? Whose blog is it?

    No, actually, you've just shown that you still can't follow the simple criticisms of your approach, and refuse to hear anything that really conflicts with your self image (as someone who knows what they're talking about). And, again, you don't get to say when the thread ends, son.

    I care that people aren't giving terrible, bad advice in such a serious and potentially dangerous area as self defence, yeah. If you try this stuff, and end up in hospital, that's your own issue. If someone else finds your site, and believes that you know what you're talking about, follows your advice, and get's beaten up or worse, I care about that. The fact that you don't seem to speaks volumes.

    This includes your "getting to 3/4 of the way through the curriculum" of your various arts, even though you don't seem to understand what the curriculum of the arts even are? Thinking that "3/4 of the way to black belt" is really anything at all, even when corrected.....
     
  7. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Sigh...I usually cringe, seriously, when I read threads like this. Why? Because 99.99% of the time, when we're talking about self training, and things of this nature, they end up like all the others...in the crapper! However, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and offer my .02 to the thread.

    First, I'll start by saying I've been a member of this thread for a long time. I've had the chance to interact, via thread, PM, and in some cases, via phone and actually having the opportunity to actually train with many of the people here. This forum, is, IMHO, fantastic. Why? Because we're fortunate to have a huge number of highly talented and skilled people here, many of which have offered some fantastic advice on the forum, many of which who have tested and proven what they say.

    So, that said, I have to agree with alot of whats already been said. IMO, unless you're devoting numerous hours a week in the dojo as well as some additional hours, outside, training, then NO....there is no self teaching, no training at 10 different places over the course of a year, that will amount to any serious training and/or skill level. Furthermore, giving someone advice, if you haven't trained for any serious amount of time, is foolish. Now, how much time is enough? IMO, you gotta have at least a year, and thats assuming the student is busting their *** training during that time, before I'd even suggest someone giving someone else advice on how to fight, defend themselves, training tips, etc.

    As for the 'tone' of the thread or the 'attitude'...let me say this. I've learned not to get so emotional from these threads..lol. I give my advice and of course people are free to do as they wish. In the 20+ yrs that I've been training, I never claim to be the final say on anything, nor do I claim to be a master. However, like Chris, and some others on here, I tend to not sugar coat things. I call 'em like I see 'em. Alot of the time, the person asking the question, gets pissed off, because they don't like the answer(s) that they're getting. The person who asks the question wants to here what THEY want to hear, and nothing else. If it doesnt fit that spectrum, they get all pissed and huffy. Sorry, if something clearly sucks, I'm not going to lie and say its great. Why give the person a false impression?
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Oh, for crying out loud.... "I read some books, did some self training, and had a little time in a couple of schools, but didn't go anywhere with any of it".

    Was that really supposed to be impressive? At all?
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh my....

    I'm a member of that forum, although I haven't posted in a long time. Lots of quality members there...well, at least there was when I was there...I'm assuming they're still there, but in any case, to post stuff there, like we're seeing here...well, I can already see guys like Dave Turton shaking his head! LOL!
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Read the threads.... it's worth it!
     
  11. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Congratulations on doing all of the following in one post:

    -Taking the word dangerous and saying youll add a warning to your blog that makes it sound like your training is dangerous to the other guy, and not dangerous in the sense that itll cause people who take the advice to ultimately lose horribly.
    -Claimed that just because you have a chapter about methods of escape despite recently making an article asking how to avoid fighting.
    -Assume that everyones wrong and drawing the wrong conclusions and that they would understand if they just thought about it your way (See your first paragraph).
    -That you picking who you teach is of some kind of importance when the stuff you teach isnt even worth learning, let alone worth getting onto your list of exclusive course students.
    -Thinking that even if you taught it to anyone that 'misusing' the information would lead to anything more than them getting hurt worse than they would have otherwise been.
    -Saying that you cant justify a blog you made and making it sound like thats justified by it being 'open source'.
    -Assume that we even want to discuss this further, and that we havent just been explaining the same thing to you again and again, and that youre 'explanations' are things that justify your previous statements.
    -Believing that were challenging you, when were all trying to give you simple advice (The 'challenge' lasted the first paragraph of everyones first reply, at the most. After that, the challenge was long gone).
    -That disagreeing with our points of view is a matter of debate on some points, and that what were saying are just opinions to be agreed or disagreed with.
    -Thinking people deliberate over limited qualifications (Because by the looks of it, id close the webpage after reading them).

    Peace.

     
  12. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Only if you can tell me how to stop my eyes from burning. :D
     
  13. First Action

    First Action Orange Belt

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    Hi Chris,

    As I said before I'm ending this thread (I know i cant physically end it (i dont think), but it implies that Im just not going to monitor it anymore.. ie we all have a choice of how we respond to things) I have read you responses, a lot of it is 'nit-picking' and repeated material, but there are some good things in there also. I was going to reply to the useful points but it will just never end.. so Ive opted not to. I honestly feel your time could be best spent elsewhere than on someone you have lost all hope on.

    If you are really, deeply in need for a response you can PM me. Other than that you can catch me on other threads, in the case that you are tracking me, which it seems you are. (Im impressed you have spent the time to do so)

    MJS -

    Thanks for your comments (although much of it has been said), i appreciate in the manner that you have responded ie emotionally balanced.

    If you replace 'these threads' with 'what other people say', its pretty much my point of view

    Cyriacus:
    Despite telling Chris i wasnt going to respond to things point by point, i will do for you because I think you have misinterpreted alot of it and/or taken it out of context

    ... But the part about not monitoring this post still stands, so for you also, if you really want to discuss it further you can PM me (although I dont think you really care that much)

    Out of context.. please wait till I put the disclaimer up until commenting on it

    Out of context. The research the responces from that question are for use in a different section of FASD ie survival fitness. Related, but different

    I cant see how my first paragraph related to this, but in any case I think this is an incorrect assumption about the way I think

    It wasnt meant to be about getting onto my 'exclusive list'. Apart from 2009 I have not (yet) done any active marketing for courses (theres a tab on the website but if you look there is nothing actually there). Alll people I have trained since then are a result of them having witnessed me/us train, and asking for it. What I meant was, if they want to train for the wrong reasons (eg, I want to kick some guys ***), then I wont let them train with me/us.

    A repeated statement, which in my opinion is wrong. Tp simplify the s**t out of it. If 2 people where going to have a fight, and they are exactly the same (although I realise this is impossible) and one of them did nothing, and the other guy had 1 day of training with me, then the next day the guy that trained with me would 'win'

    I meant that I cant justify that it is open source. A mistake on my part, which I change by adding a disclaimer.

    If you dont want to discuss something, then dont. Dont post, dont even read the thread. Like how I want to end the discussion, so this is the last time Im reading this thread. Simple.

    Not challenging as in 'i challenge you to a duel'. I mean challenging as in inspiring thought.

    Yes. I truly believe EVERYTHING is subjective. Its the way I view the world. Its also why.. actually, never mind. I could go on for a while about this.

    Whether they deliberate them or not is not of my concern. Its there to be read. If they continue to read fine, if they decide to close the page, also fine.

    Chris: In case your still reading. I did not post it to impress. If I wanted it to impress I would have embellished the hell out of it. The only reason I did it was because people on this kept asking about my experience.

    So just so you dont waste your time replying and not getting a response (from me, feel free to discuss amongst yourselves), I will re-iterate that Im not following this thread anymore.

    If ANYONE really feels the need for a responce from me feel to PM.

    Thanks
     
  14. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    That's what I thought when I read his name (and comments), he's an absolute star that man!
     
  15. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    And thats where im going to have to disagree. Theres no need to discuss this further - If you really dont want to accept that after all this time and after being told by so many people on other forums, to continue is a pointless endeavour. I shall leave you with your belief.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I think this is an unsupported and unsupportable conclusion. Based on what I've seen of your training methods (what you've posted here, plus wading through your "training manual" I think the person might well be better off without your training.
     
  17. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I've read alot of his posts over there, and while I've never met the man, I certainly would like to, if I had the opportunity. Certainly seems like a wealth of knowledge. Have you ever had the chance to meet and/or train with him?
     
  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I met him a few years ago but haven't had the chance to train with him, my instructor has though. Having said that he's having a '65th Birthday' weekend seminar later in the year to which everyones welcome. It's being held at a mutual friend's Dojo not far from me so I have high hopes of being able to go.
     
  19. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I read the early posts and decided that what I read was so bad it wasn't worthy of comment. But Chris posted those interesting links above and I couldn't resist a peak. Dave Turton! A legend! Was he impressed? Well, no. Not even a little bit. I have some of Dave's videos and he is one mean SOB when it comes to SD. I love the guy. He's up there with Bas Ruten. Actually, when I think think about it, he is even meaner than Bas.

    Sorry First Action. I think this project should be called 'Last Action'! :asian:
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    No disrespect to Chris at all, I agree with what he says but if Dave Turton says it's pants it certainly is! He's hugely highly thought of here and his experience outranks most peoples I know. So what he says goes as far as I'm concerned.123
     

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