Fake bjj black belt exposed

[Tony Dismukes]

It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.

Correction. I went back and found the details. The instructor is Klay Pittman. He is a legitimate 3rd degree BB under Carlos Machado. The belts are considered to be in BJJ, but the kids get "junior black belts" and get a stripe on the belt for every 200 hours on the mats in rank. One of his kids has actually been promoted to 7th-degree "junior" black belt.

The rest of the BJJ world does not approve of "junior black belts" and have in general been very critical of the idea.

 

[msmitht]

Unfortunately, that's not really true. I've seen some schools flourish with really bad technique. There's one near me that I'd call a McDojo, and which has been around for at least 15 years.

I should have said that for me and the teachers I have had , which includes Master Carlos, quality instruction comes first.

 

[msmitht]

Correction. I went back and found the details. The instructor is Klay Pittman. He is a legitimate 3rd degree BB under Carlos Machado. The belts are considered to be in BJJ, but the kids get "junior black belts" and get a stripe on the belt for every 200 hours on the mats in rank. One of his kids has actually been promoted to 7th-degree "junior" black belt.

The rest of the BJJ world does not approve of "junior black belts" and have in general been very critical of the idea.

As they should be. He is doing well in business but has alienated himself completely from the bjj community. No one respects him except for his own students. I have personally met one of his Jr. Black belts as he was on vacation and wanted to do train. 2 yellow belts and an orange belt ran him over. They were being nice and didn't sub him. Dad was quick to point out that if he went by our rank schedule his son would be a Grey/black as he had only been training 3 years but has put in over 1000 hours.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's actually already happened. There's an instructor (in Texas, if I remember correctly) who is a legitimate black belt under the Machados who has created his own curriculum with quick promotions and high black belt ranks for kids. Technically, the ranks are for his own in-house grappling system, not BJJ, but he has nevertheless gotten very negative reactions from the rest of the BJJ community and those ranks are not transferrable anywhere else.

It would be nice to see the art maintain a fairly consistent standard of what a BB means. I don't know of anywhere else that has happened on a large scale. Once there's a split of associations and lineages, most arts end up with a range of standards.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I should have said that for me and the teachers I have had , which includes Master Carlos, quality instruction comes first.

I was speaking more to the last half of your comment about schools not being able to stay open without it.

 

[JR 137]

We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason. But everyone has their right to be happy. Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do. They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it. If not for themselves, then for their kids.

They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out. They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.

Nothing wrong with that. The McDojos pretty much all provide that. If that's really their aim, they're at the right place more often than not. Good for them.

My dojo is dirt cheap compared to everywhere else $45/month for kids, $55 for adults, no contracts, no hidden fees, no outrageous uniform costs, clubs, levels of membership, etc.

A few friends have kids in a McDojo. I tell them they should check out where my daughter and I train. I tell them the price. They're usually interested until they ask me about the frills with the McDojos. We don't promote every month or two, we don't have in-house tournaments where every kid brings home a trophy bigger than they are. We don't have a bunch of merit patches we see on our gis. We don't have a van that picks the kids up from school. We don't have a homework room. We don't have a playground out back (we're out back!). We do however have a group of kids who work hard, are respectful, and earn every belt they wear, all while having fun. We're not training little killers, we're teaching them the MA skills they'll need as adult students. We're not teaching them to be tournament fighters, we're teaching them to be kids who don't get pushed around.

None of the parents have even visited. We don't have enough frills. Nothing wrong with that. They're happy spending the money they spend elsewhere, and I'm happy where I am.

 

[Steve]

It would be nice to see the art maintain a fairly consistent standard of what a BB means. I don't know of anywhere else that has happened on a large scale. Once there's a split of associations and lineages, most arts end up with a range of standards.

In Bjj the belt standards are calibrated through competition.

 

[Tez3]

We don't have a van that picks the kids up from school. We don't have a homework room.

If the economy is much the same as ours where both parents need to work just to keep their heads above water, just, and the cost of childcare is extortionate these are probably more important to parents than anything else. If they can trust them to care for their children there and it's affordable then a place like this would be a godsend.
It doesn't happen here like that because if you want to look after children you have to be inspected by the local council, police checked as well as OFSTED registered. Martial arts places wouldn't be deemed suitable for after school care as such though you wouldn't need registration to just run martial arts classes, you just won't be able to run anything else such as you describe.

 

[JR 137]

If the economy is much the same as ours where both parents need to work just to keep their heads above water, just, and the cost of childcare is extortionate these are probably more important to parents than anything else. If they can trust them to care for their children there and it's affordable then a place like this would be a godsend.
It doesn't happen here like that because if you want to look after children you have to be inspected by the local council, police checked as well as OFSTED registered. Martial arts places wouldn't be deemed suitable for after school care as such though you wouldn't need registration to just run martial arts classes, you just won't be able to run anything else such as you describe.

I'm not criticizing working parents who use it as an after school thing in leu of a sitter. Actually, none of the parents I know utilize those specific services. And I'm not sure of the regulations involved with running that service. I hope there are some in place. New York State loves to regulate the hell out of everything else, so why not?

But a bunch of 14 year old 3rd degree black belts simply can't provide what I'd call quality instruction. Especially when there's 4 classes going on at the same time on the same floor.

Everyone's got to find the dojo that's the best fit for them. And very rarely does the best fit boil down to one thing; it's always a combination of many factors.

As long as my friends are happy where they are, so be it. I tell them once, and in a non-pushy way. Anything more is annoying at best.

 

[Charlemagne]

Actually, quality control is a large part of most chain/franchise plans. It doesn't ensure the highest quality, but ensures a consistent level of quality.

Exactly right. There is a reason that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, etc. have been going on about people who learn in non-standardized environments not even knowing the basic self-defense aspect of BJJ, or having even a basic blue belt level of understanding of fundamental BJJ. Standardization is not an evil, its about learning the rules so that later on, when one has a solid base, they can learn when and how to break them. In addition, it is worth noting that Gracie Barra is very clear to its instructors that they are free to show their own variations of techniques, etc. and when one looks at their instructors, one can see that there is variation in how they move and teach, which is going to prevent stagnation.

I left one BJJ school and went to Gracie Barra to train for exactly that reason. I wanted a solid fundamental curriculum that wasn't going to leave things up to chance based upon whatever the instructor wanted to teach that day or whatever aspect of his game he likes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason. But everyone has their right to be happy. Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do. They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it. If not for themselves, then for their kids.

They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out. They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.

Nothing wrong with that. The McDojos pretty much all provide that. If that's really their aim, they're at the right place more often than not. Good for them.

My dojo is dirt cheap compared to everywhere else $45/month for kids, $55 for adults, no contracts, no hidden fees, no outrageous uniform costs, clubs, levels of membership, etc.

A few friends have kids in a McDojo. I tell them they should check out where my daughter and I train. I tell them the price. They're usually interested until they ask me about the frills with the McDojos. We don't promote every month or two, we don't have in-house tournaments where every kid brings home a trophy bigger than they are. We don't have a bunch of merit patches we see on our gis. We don't have a van that picks the kids up from school. We don't have a homework room. We don't have a playground out back (we're out back!). We do however have a group of kids who work hard, are respectful, and earn every belt they wear, all while having fun. We're not training little killers, we're teaching them the MA skills they'll need as adult students. We're not teaching them to be tournament fighters, we're teaching them to be kids who don't get pushed around.

None of the parents have even visited. We don't have enough frills. Nothing wrong with that. They're happy spending the money they spend elsewhere, and I'm happy where I am.

I used to be bothered by dojos that didn't provide viable self-defense training. I got over that a long time ago. Now, I'm only bothered by people who operate a business that doesn't provide the service or product they claim to. That applies to a dojo that claims to teach effective self-defense and produces people unable to fend off attackers even in a demonstration, those hawking cures that have been proven to be ineffective (or worse), and those teaching life management techniques that are demonstrably ineffective (or worse).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In Bjj the belt standards are calibrated through competition.

But not all BJJ schools participate in competitions (and that's a good thing - more reach for the art, more positive impact on more people). For those that do, the calibration is fairly automatic - and fool-resistant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly right. There is a reason that Rickson, Pedro Sauer, etc. have been going on about people who learn in non-standardized environments not even knowing the basic self-defense aspect of BJJ, or having even a basic blue belt level of understanding of fundamental BJJ. Standardization is not an evil, its about learning the rules so that later on, when one has a solid base, they can learn when and how to break them. In addition, it is worth noting that Gracie Barra is very clear to its instructors that they are free to show their own variations of techniques, etc. and when one looks at their instructors, one can see that there is variation in how they move and teach, which is going to prevent stagnation.

I left one BJJ school and went to Gracie Barra to train for exactly that reason. I wanted a solid fundamental curriculum that wasn't going to leave things up to chance based upon whatever the instructor wanted to teach that day or whatever aspect of his game he likes.

Precisely. For a skilled instructor (not the same as a skilled technician), the standardization is unnecessary, and may even pose a hindrance. For the average instructor, it makes life (and good instruction easier). For the weak instructor who happens to be technically solid, the standardization can be a godsend.

For the student with no background, seeking some certainty that the instruction will be good, and will be consistent with other schools (for competition and transfer), standardization can also be a very good thing.

 

[jks9199]

I think the whole Mcdojo analogy has been done to death.

Commercial martial arts is s a spectrum. On one end, you have places that exist to make money, and will do so at the expense of quality instruction or standards if need be. There, the end goal is to inflate the owner's bank account. You'll see tons of things done to do that, from "must purchase our special school uniform" through 85 different bonus clubs which you must join if you really want to advance, high testing fees, etc... One of the biggest things I hate to see about those places is the "student instructor programs" under whatever name. Yep, you're going to pay for the privilege of teaching classes so that Master doesn't have to pay employees. Another thing that makes me cringe is the almost universal thinly disguised day care, which often dodges the legal requirements for day care.

Then you have a vast middle ground of places that are simultaneously trying to keep the lights on and give good training. These places may be franchised, they may be a string of schools under one local master. You'll see some of the stuff I described above -- but where in the bottom rung sacrifices the training for the dollars, this tier tries really hard to be honest and give good training, while earning enough to stay in business. Some are more successful at one side of the game than the other... but they try.

Finally, you have another end that cares more about the training than the bills. Unfortunately, most of these places don't stay in business long, unless they happen to link with a Name. (Gracie Barra would be an example.) If you must do the restaurant analogy, these are often the guys who always dreamed of having a restaurant, whose friends swear they're great cooks... but they haven't got a clue about the ins and outs of running a restaurant.

So... is money the root of all evil in martial arts? Nah. Not even close. Because you can almost make the same breakdown in places that aren't commercial. Maybe the driver isn't money... but they're cut from the same models.

So... with all that, do most martial arts need to go out and bust people claiming to teach them with improper credentials? This came up previously... First question: are they hurting anyone? If yes -- then you do. (And diluting a brand name is a form of injury... or at least can be seen as being one for the more mercenary sorts...)Is anyone going to benefit by the bust? Here? maybe a few students. Bet the guy would go under within a year anyway, though...

 

[Steve]

But not all BJJ schools participate in competitions (and that's a good thing - more reach for the art, more positive impact on more people). For those that do, the calibration is fairly automatic - and fool-resistant.

That's not true. All good schools encourage and support competitiveness and participation. Not everyone in the school competes, but there should always be a competitive element o Bjj. It would be very suspicious if a school discouraged or did not participate in competitions.

 

[Buka]

There is a trend in America right now towards chains of all kinds. I travel quite a bit and every city looks more and more like every other. Malls with targets, gamestops, the same stores and the same restaurants.

To me, this is the problem. So when I hear Ruth's Chris, I do think mcrestaurant. It's a chain, and that's kind of meh. Doesn't mean the food is bad. Just means it's not the place to go and expect to be wowed or surprised, or see something new. I'm not going to go to Atlanta just to eat at the local Applebee's, maghiannos or Ruth's Chris.

We're pretty quick to jump on McDojos around here, and for good reason. But everyone has their right to be happy. Most people out there aren't interested in studying the arts to the depth we do. They want that trophy, literally and figuratively (aka trophies, a belt to wear), and want others to know it. If not for themselves, then for their kids.

They want a safe place where they/their kids can hang out. They want that place to teach some values, teach work ethic, get some exercise, and so on.

Nothing wrong with that. The McDojos pretty much all provide that. If that's really their aim, they're at the right place more often than not. Good for them.

I used to be bothered by dojos that didn't provide viable self-defense training. I got over that a long time ago.

So... with all that, do most martial arts need to go out and bust people claiming to teach them with improper credentials? This came up previously... First question: are they hurting anyone? If yes -- then you do. (And diluting a brand name is a form of injury... or at least can be seen as being one for the more mercenary sorts...)Is anyone going to benefit by the bust? Here? maybe a few students. Bet the guy would go under within a year anyway, though...

Not trying to cherry pick, or take anything out of context. I think all of these are such great points.

Sometimes I don't like it here so much. You guys keep trying to show me the light. I hate the light!
You're right, such great points.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not true. All good schools encourage and support competitiveness and participation. Not everyone in the school competes, but there should always be a competitive element o Bjj. It would be very suspicious if a school discouraged or did not participate in competitions.

I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.

 

[Steve]

I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.

Because competition is a fundamental part of the art. It's the way one school calibrates their ranking system with other schools. As I said, not everyone in a school competes, but the school as a whole should encourage participation. I would be very leery of a school that doesn't compete. Maybe some other Bjj guys around here can comment.

 

[Steve]

I know a school that is self-defense focused, teaching GJJ (CI also teaches NGA - recently made purple in GJJ, as I recall). They are very serious about it and very focused, but I don't think anyone in the school participates in any competitions, because that's not their focus. I'm sure there are others like it. Why would it be suspicious for folks to not be interested in competition? BJJ is a good art, with lots of levels, and a school that doesn't go to competitions will attract a different sort of student than one that competes.

I'll also add that if a school doesn't compete for the reasons above, that's a real shame. it's a very short step from this to the dilemma we are currently discussing with aikido. A school that isolates itself from the community, and avoids calibration, is creating all kinds of reasons they can't or won't demonstrate that their execution of technique actually works. Just like aikido. Could it work? At that point, who the heck could say?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are certainly BJJ schools which aren't focused on competition. I don't know how many there are where no one from the school ever competes - I imagine it's a small percentage.

Even in schools which aren't particularly active on the tournament competition scene, there's always a certain degree of internal competition taking place with the daily rolling. Typically there will be a steady stream of new students and visitors with previous training (wrestlers, judoka, BJJ students from other schools) coming through that students can test themselves against. Many of us also visit other schools on occasion and roll with the students there.

If you had a BJJ school where none of the students ever competed or visited other schools or rolled with visitors from other schools, then I would worry that they might be in danger of getting off-track from the rest of the BJJ community in terms of their standards.