EPAK Old vs. New

[TwistofFat]

what were we talking about?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi Robert,

I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship, nothing wrong with that but it is just that.

I think Ed Parkers stuff now can be considered Traditional, It goes back quite a while in America, Larry being the older style because he made his tapes over 15 years ago, or maybe I am wrong, I don't think so.

Regards, Gary

Me thinks you should shut up now Gary, you've no idea what you're talking about.

DarK LorD

 

[Touch Of Death]

MOD WARNING
Please Keep the discussion polite and respectfull.
Sean Wold

 

[GAB]

Ok, To Robert and Dark Lord.

I am going to apologize to you both at the same time, I guess I did not convey my feeling correctly...

I will have to consider more closely as to what I say about your school and your Master. I in no way ment it to be demeaning.

I am sorry that it was taken that way...

Regards, Gary

PS: Robert, to you I sincerely say, I am sorry if I offended you or your Master...It matters to me...Regards, Gary

To the Moderator I did not mean to have it go this way... Gary

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Ok, To Robert and Dark Lord.

I am going to apologize to you both at the same time, I guess I did not convey my feeling correctly...

I will have to consider more closely as to what I say about your school and your Master. I in no way ment it to be demeaning.

I am sorry that it was taken that way...

Regards, Gary

PS: Robert, to you I sincerely say, I am sorry if I offended you or your Master...It matters to me...Regards, Gary

To the Moderator I did not mean to have it go this way... Gary

He is not my MASTER. I serve no MASTER under any circumstances, nor does he like to be characterized that way. Really Gary, you should know me better by now.

DarK LorD

 

[rmcrobertson]

I think you conveyed your meaning very clearly indeed, Gary, and I believe that between this and work I've about filled my quota for the week of gratuitous insult subsequently denied.

All you have to write, dude, is that you don't agree. All you have to say is that you don't particularly care for this aspect or that aspect of what Mr. Tatum does. All you have to do is to advance your own ideas.

Instead, there's this stuff. Sigh.

 

[Hand Sword]

Sorry to see all the divisions and arguing here. All of the kenpo here is the "birthchild" of Mr. Parker. All of your instructors were "raised" in kenpo by Mr. Parker. It's like a bunch of children arguing over their inheritance. However, back to the question I've raised. From what I've heard and read, EPAK kenpo that now exists was something that created, from the original teachings of kenpo, for commercialism. This is fine, because that is the state of the martial arts today, which is to make money. I was hoping to get through to the old schoolers out here, or to get to them by those of you that can get to them.

What is the real difference (s) between what Mr. Parker did, or what is referred to as Parker Kenpo, and what is now the EPAK system that is taught?

I truly feel bad if I've opened wounds from the splintering of the system that happened after Mr. Parker's passing. Mr. Parker worked tirelessly to "raise" his kenpo child, and sacrificed a lot. Please try to come together, no one's kenpo is better than someone elses, it's all Mr. Parker's Kenpo. Respect to all of you!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Bad news: I don't do martial arts to make money. Neither do most people I know.

More bad news: "traditional kenpo," like traditional martial arts, were not without the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

 

[GAB]

Alright if I have somehow confused this I am just as confused, anyone want to punch in www.ltatum.com and give me your thoughts on this particular topic the way it has degenerated.

If you go to the website you will see where I am coming from.

If I am wrong... Then like I said before I apologize...I am pretty sure about the words I read and see on this site and the information portrayed...

Yes Clyde, I am just going by what I have seen and read, the above site is for all to see and make their own decision...

I am not going to say another thing regarding this topic or the Master depicted on the website...

Sincerely, Gary

 

[Hand Sword]

Bad news: I don't do martial arts to make money. Neither do most people I know.

More bad news: "traditional kenpo," like traditional martial arts, were not without the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

I apologize, I didn't mean people are practicing the martial arts to make money, my target was to the school owners and instructors. I came up from a self defense/ miltary point of view in regard to the arts where a blackbelt truly meant something, that ordinary people respected. People now seem to make light of martial artists, in terms of respecting there fighting ability. Five year olds have blackbelts! Dojos have become day care centers, handing out belts like candy, watering down the teaching, going for quantity over quality. The students I remember, black belt or not, were definitely people you'd want on your side for the real stuff, rather than dealing against them.

As far as this personal arguing, I've had enough of this, I'm trying to get info in a serious manner, from people who were there and know, not conduct a popularity contest, between the kenpo factions. Again, MUCH RESPECT to everyone, could we please focus on the question.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Alright if I have somehow confused this I am just as confused, anyone want to punch in www.ltatum.com and give me your thoughts on this particular topic the way it has degenerated.

If you go to the website you will see where I am coming from.

If I am wrong... Then like I said before I apologize...I am pretty sure about the words I read and see on this site and the information portrayed...

Yes Clyde, I am just going by what I have seen and read, the above site is for all to see and make their own decision...

I am not going to say another thing regarding this topic or the Master depicted on the website...

Sincerely, Gary

OK here's the deal, while Mr. Tatum has a master rank, students don't run around calling him MASTER nor do they consider him their personal master. The fact that other systems use this term more widely may be the cause of some confusion. The ad you refer to is just that, an ad. It said who, what, and why in two words.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, it's just THIS old tired issue. Once upon a Time There Were Giants in the Earth, and They Lived Only for the Martial Arts...the Sin Entered Into Our Art, and Lo, Kenpo began to slide into the Pit of Hell....

It's not a serious discussion because the question isn't phrased seriously.

Things just change. That's all. They just change. trust me; there are people in today's kenpo fully capable of going toe to toe with anybody from the days of yore; there were people in the Days of Heroes With Black Belts that I'd look pretty damn good next to.

When you impose this Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire structure, you conceal what's actually going on...unless ya wanna blame capitalism, which I'm more than willing to do.

Oh, by the way...you might at times consider that in the Good Old Days, martial arts were pretty deeply racially segregated, and they pretty much excluded women.

Then too, while I am not a particular big fan of bratty little yuppie larvae on the mat, it strikes me that it is far from the worst thing in the world to have kids learning at least a little something about the martial arts--and far from the worst thing in the world to have martial artists constantly reminded of reality.

 

[TwistofFat]

I have been in EPAK for just about 12 years so I am no authority on Old/New but wanted to make an observation.

I have had the opportunity to grow up in the east under the Planas/Wedlake tree but learned many of the forms from Mr. Tatum (in person, on tapes and with one of his BB in Cleveland). I have noticed differences in 'movement' based upon west versus east (a gross over-simplification) and have been told I "do forms like the west coast guys" (I usually take that as a compliment unless I foul them up).

Many of my southern Kenpo brethren train as we can in small groups and quarterly seminars in some distant locale. I think Mr. Parker's art may look a bit different embodied in Misters Dye, Tatum, Planas, etc but man it still hurts like stink. The Kenpo we practice may differ slightly but a)we hammer on fundamentals, b)train using realistic environs and c) cross train in other systems as we see fit and 4) go back to a qualified EPAK instructor to make sure I am still doing EPAK and not my own bad version.

The EPAK Kenpo as taught to me now is very different from what I learned 10 years ago - in no small part due to my rank, but also tailored to my stregths and weaknessess. I am certain Mr. Parker taught things to his students that may not be in the manual (I cannot imagine Mr. Parker never again used his Judo!).

Mr. Parker provided a great service to American MA's by provding a framework that could be memorized and studied and then refined in person. As his art grew and his team of instructors grew and taught it became harder to provide the hands on required to move beyond the book. But he taught some solid MA's and provided great reference materials for the masses to learn. I am glad he did or I never would have discovered EPAK 2000 miles away from LA.

For those few who put the years in the system and then really look to learn the rest, we have to rely on Mr. Parkers students who will certainly teach slightly different than their instructor.

Thanks - Glenn.

 

[Deschain]

I just did not like Karate and Religion taught at the same place, still don't...

Who did that?

I have the utmost respect for the Karate or Kenpo or Chinese arts he blended with it. But everyone in this day and age of information, has to understand he borrowed, it was not new it was new to us in America.

Ok

Not to me, I had already been in the Marine Corp and visited those places and and had four hard years of training... We (marines)were on Okinawa since we captured it, been training in the very thing he said he invented.

Wow, you must be one salty dog. You were in on the capture of Okinawa? EP said he invented Okinawan Karate? Can you please provide a reference? I thought, according to what I have read on Martial Talk, that EP brough the Kenpo he learned from Chow to the mainland and the expounded upon what he had been taught.

Kind of a hard thing to listen to when you know better...

My thought on that one.
Regards, Gary %-}

Could not agree with you more, keep preaching!

 

[Michael Billings]

Heck, I don't even know what you mean by old v. new.

EPAK I assume, since that is the title. So we are starting circa 1954 or so?

Old as in pre-1960
1960-1970 Tracy era material, Chinese Kenpo (NCKKA - LaBounty), etc.
1970-1980 Evolution to 24 Tech manual (the big red book) & Infinite Insights being written
1980-1990 Continued Evolution with new manuals unpublished, Mr. Parker starts repairing relationships within Kenpo and bringing people back under the IKKA umbrella?

Hard to break down by material or organizations. When was it not fragmented?

-Michael

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

...as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.


On other matters, well, I find your descriptions of pretty much everything fundamentally flawed, and I'd note that deconstructing the misrepresentation of reality is a fundamental critical task.

For example, this recurrent fantasy that "the masses," were given third-rate knowledge, counterbalanced by the (sometimes unspoken, but always present) fantasy that, "the elite," (among whose ranks the writer always places themselves) Have the Secrets. In the lit crit game, we call that a binary opposition, and recognize that, "coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire."

Ya want your solution? Fine. 1. Read Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." 2. Read something like Said's, "The World, the Text and the Critic," or Foucault's essays on history and genealogy.

Spoken like a true elitest, seperating people into those who know about binary opposition, and those who do not. If pots had tongues, I'm sure they would call the kettle black. Bit of an irony: In the very act of accusing others of being misinformed and blatantly wrong, you must, inherently, operate from a position in which you are the correct one, and your correctness is based on information you have, and "they" do not, placing you in the position of the informed elite expressing forces of desire.

My sniping is not necessary, and I tire of people with half the story telling me I'm wrong, because I only have half the story. I love most of your posts, Robert, because there are too few thinking men in the martial arts. But I know what I based my comments on, and I know how I operationally define generalities such as "the masses". Without requesting elaboration or definition for an informed deconstruction, you leapt to critique. Rudely. And you accuse us of having issues.

Deconstructing misinterpretations of reality assumes that your model of the world is better, more real, or more accurate than an others, and as a proponent of subjective reality, I doubt that. I am sure that Derrida, Said, and Foucault are brilliant men with excellent points (I look forward to reading their work when more pressing life issues have subsided). History is full of the works of men who were brilliant, near the mark, but not entirely correct. Until the skies split and hosts of angels harken the arrival of any or all of these gentleman, I will assign them in my own mind to the place I assign all people: just a man. Bright, perhaps. Innovative and ground-shaking, even. But merely proponents of a philosophy or perspective that is correct sometimes, but not always. As are all philosophies and perspectives.

But what about fixing kenpo, you say? Well, first, give it up--impossible, and a power trip anyway.

I don't think of it as arrogant or elitist to commit my time as a hobbyist to improving my golf swing, forehand, or pitch. In the field of biomechanics, there are whole texts and ongoing journal publications dedicated to simple acts which were initially assumed to be under the domain of innate ability. Pitching a baseball; swinging a golf club; diving into a pool, etc. Placed under the microscope of kinesiology and applied biomechanics, these simple tasks are revealed to be quite complex, with specific sequences required for completion with efficiency. Findings from these studies continues to inform the training and conditioning of professional athletes who have only a half-dozen or so motions to worry about in the course of their performance. How much more complex are the kenpo yellow-belt requirements compared to a tennis serve? Are you suggesting that Mr. Parker -- one man with thousands of moves to index -- intuitivley managed to get it ALL down, and relay it ALL perfectly for the generations to come, while other sports have hundreds of athletes and researchers working thousands of hours to refine 1 or 2 moves, desperate to uncover the next important link to improvement?

That's just stubborn and naive; the power trip seems to me to be more invested in a person who dogmatically refuses to explore the possibility of change, and attempts to verbally spank and/or humiliate people who advocate positions and conclusions different than his. If the same methods for improving a single stroke (for years) are applied to a different kenpo move a month, making the necessary changes to account for detected deficiencies, years would go by and we would still not be into the forms.

Simply stepping back into a left neutral bow involves complex open- and closed-chain kinematic events that return proprioceptive information to the brain...with inhibitory and corrective information being looped back at reaaaly fast speeds...that the study of weight shifts, pivots, translation of the moving foot posteriorly combined with the pelvic, spinal, and HAT dynamics would provide hundreds of hours of study. In that study you could video-tape 100 veteran kenpo practitioners from different angles, and detect subtle differences in all of them. From among these differences, and based on what is known (thus far) about the energy of motion in the body parts involved in this simple kenpo activity, a theory could be developed about what the maximally efficient and effective way is to step back into a neutral bow. And I assure you, we are probably all doing it wrong. Is there room for improvement in kenpo? As one of the most complex activities involving the use of the body in sophisticated, multi-layered movements, heck yeah. Will I change it? Not enough to matter, and certainly not enough to say "I have the secrets". But perhaps if I start, generations to follow will adopt the work (not the changes, but the activity of researching the changes), do a better job than I, and someday kenpoists will know the very best way to step back into a neutral bow. All the better if my name is lost in the anonymity of time: I'm sure it would only be used for mockery's sake, anyway.

I have the power, and you don't, and you must Come Unto Me for the Secrets of the Power."

Odd. I do not recall saying this. There are people interested in genuine improvement, based on informed observation, who do not seek fame, glory, and the inevitable worship of masterdom. If someone said "push button A, and you'll be able to pay your bills, on time and without stress for the rest of your life (or even for a couple of months, for that matter), or Press B, and you'll be world-famous (or even locally known) for being the guy who revamped all of kenpo for the world, making it infinitely better and bringing you glory and adoration for all time", I'd press A in a friggin heartbeat...and STILL be interested in investigating improvements in kenpo. In my opinion, contrary to your blanket assertions on this and other threads, modifications that serve us are not folly or sin.

There are no secrets in kenpo, except the ones we keep from ourselves.

In the spirit of keeping with binary opposition statements, "spoken like one who was never told the secrets". (that was humor, Robert, not vindictive sarcasm...for the record).

The reasons we think there are Big Secrets have to do, to start with, two issues: a) the way that some folks make secrets to pump themselves up; b) our own attempts to sneak around the corner and avoid practice and long, hard, slow work.

I make no secrets to pump myself up, and am plainly derrogatory about my own, outtashapeandsuckingwind lack of skill and information. As I've said before: I don't know much, but I'm very opinionated with what I do know. Much of the source information that has fed my conclusions has little to do with what I know or don't know, and is based on information gleaned from others... people wih different information than you or I have access to. More experienced others than you or I (verecundium?); some with something to gain, most without. As for your less-than-hidden innuendo regarding looking for secrets to avoid time on the mat, that dog don't hunt, bubbelah. While others were having healthy childhood experiences and engaging in happy adolescent activities like football, homework & dating, I was a karate geek, practicing my **** off day and night. Only had "a few" moves, and milked them day in and day out with a thirst for more, fascinated by what was possible with the human body (by the way), and not with being able to kick other peoples butts in an expression my phallogigantism. Feuled by my own pathology, sure. But not by seeking fame. Sorry dude.

And FYI: Not as an insult to you, Clyde, or anyone...Mr. Tatum does have a reputation among some members of the martial arts and kenpo community as being deeply motivated by the potential for financial gains, as well as for being an egotist. As a testament to his skill, there are few people willing to tell him this to his face, so it is entirely possible he is unaware of this perception. There is also a perception that his students attempt to use intimidation and rancor as a means of preventing people with opposing views from participating in activities such as web chats. Again, not an attempt to anger or insult, so if this comes as news to you and offends, I do apologize for the offending aspect of it, as none is intended.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- Still interested in your perspective the differences and similarities of "old" vs. "new" kenpo; the advantages and disadvantages of of each; and what motivations may have caused the selective dissemination of information, if any such thing occurred. This has been a personal fascination of mine through time, and I would enjoy learning the perspectives of one so well-entrenched in kenpo, and firm in their convictions.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I think you conveyed your meaning very clearly indeed, Dave, and I believe that between this and work I've about filled my quota for the week of gratuitous insult subsequently denied.

All you have to write, dude, is that you don't agree. All you have to say is that you don't particularly care for this aspect or that aspect of what Mr. Tatum does. All you have to do is to advance your own ideas.

Instead, there's this stuff. Sigh.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I recently received this email from a First Generation BB and I would like to share this with all us Kenpoist on MT. I found this persons honestly and insight refreshing. I hope this does not offended anyone but I thought it was important.

"Since the passing of Mr. Parker, our Kenpo family has basically been torn apart, for greed, and fame, I am not a person you looks for a $$ in every aspect of my life, nor am I concerned with fame, i started martial arts for one reason, to learn what it means to be a humble and honest person to better myself and to make better decisions in my life, as i grew up, things in my life changed, the one constant was martial arts, Ed told me once that through out life, challenges will test your sincerity and your faith, but always remember that there are people out there that do not have the fundamental belief in something like Martial arts to keep their lives moving in forward direction, so regardless of my problems or pains i may suffer, to be focused on a point ahead of me, and to fight thru whatever problems I may be having at that time, once I move past it, it will always become a learning experience that I can benefit from. Most 1st gens out there have forgotten the main reason why they began, to excel to better themselves, to teach others regardless of financial gain. I am not the best I am not the greatest, but what I am is dedicated to a goal, to keep the flame burning, to better myself and my students. to become better persons and the best martial artist they can be."

Very truthful and honest about the current state of Kenpo. I wonder if someday we can all benefit from this persons wisdom.

 

[Hand Sword]

I recently received this email from a First Generation BB and I would like to share this with all us Kenpoist on MT. I found this persons honestly and insight refreshing. I hope this does not offended anyone but I thought it was important.

"Since the passing of Mr. Parker, our Kenpo family has basically been torn apart, for greed, and fame, I am not a person you looks for a $$ in every aspect of my life, nor am I concerned with fame, i started martial arts for one reason, to learn what it means to be a humble and honest person to better myself and to make better decisions in my life, as i grew up, things in my life changed, the one constant was martial arts, Ed told me once that through out life, challenges will test your sincerity and your faith, but always remember that there are people out there that do not have the fundamental belief in something like Martial arts to keep their lives moving in forward direction, so regardless of my problems or pains i may suffer, to be focused on a point ahead of me, and to fight thru whatever problems I may be having at that time, once I move past it, it will always become a learning experience that I can benefit from. Most 1st gens out there have forgotten the main reason why they began, to excel to better themselves, to teach others regardless of financial gain. I am not the best I am not the greatest, but what I am is dedicated to a goal, to keep the flame burning, to better myself and my students. to become better persons and the best martial artist they can be."

Very truthful and honest about the current state of Kenpo. I wonder if someday we can all benefit from this persons wisdom.

I agree completely! As I said in a previous post, I wish all kenpo/kempoists could come together, and exchange ideas. Especially, to be able to truly conversate with the old schoolers, getting their experiences with GM Parker, and new innovations they have added, before all of the old masters pass away.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Honestly I wonder if Kenpo can actually come under one banner again due to the damage if I may use that term between different associations and the passing of those passions to the 2nd or even 3rd generation of BB's. Since many of us are 2nd or 3rd Generation BB's we have to rely on the Senior BB's for guideance and insight on how Kenpo must move forward. How we (that is each of us) can be the Martial Artist that SGM Parker would have wanted us to be.

We do well to honor his Art of Kenpo if we all respect each other and learn from each other knowing that each of us can and are able to contribute to Kenpo in some way making Kenpo better as well as making each of us better Kenpoist aka Human Beings.

Maybe I am a dreamer but I do belive after gleaning from his books, talking by phone or via computers, and studies from other BB in Kenpo. We would all like to be respected despite our differences. We are all Kenpoist and we need to respect each other therefore HONORING SGM Parker's memory.