Dojo Photo's/role models

[Kickboxer101]

I would debate some this but wont - other than to agree that his arrogance and toughness was known, but he was also a loving husband, father, and good with children. He also did much to advance race relations and advanced the ideas of mixed martial arts of the time he was alive. He was more than just a good fighter.

Yeah sure but so is tyson he's happily married with kids fact is no ones perfect but even if they're a bad person they can still be a role model In sport. In more recent days Jon jones probably the best fighter in the world now but a total jerk and an idiot personality wise

 

[Tez3]

Tyson was before my time to so were the Beatles I've still heard of them same with Ali he was before tyson yet everyone still knows him

Of course if you say so. If you know them it stands to reason everyone does.
I do think you need to be more open minded, as with the Bruce Lee comments as well as others you've made, you tend to believe everything you read then quote it as being true.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Of course if you say so. If you know them it stands to reason everyone does.
I do think you need to be more open minded, as with the Bruce Lee comments as well as others you've made, you tend to believe everything you read then quote it as being true.

Nooo but just because they're before someone's time doesn't mean they won't know them which is what your saying. Yep I believe something if it's been reported by everyone and it's very well know yeah I do that's kind of the point of reading things you see. You just seem to have a problem with everything I say everytime I post something you seem to have a problem with it

 

[Tez3]

Nooo but just because they're before someone's time doesn't mean they won't know them which is what your saying. Yep I believe something if it's been reported by everyone and it's very well know yeah I do that's kind of the point of reading things you see. You just seem to have a problem with everything I say everytime I post something you seem to have a problem with it

I don't have a problem, you write things that are naïve. Celebrities pass out of popularity and get forgotten, just because you remember/know something there is no reason why everyone would. The world moves on, new celebrities come along everyday and the old ones forgotten. All sorts of things are attributed to people like Bruce Lee, it doesn't mean they are true for sure. Take a step back and become more critical rather than gullible.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I don't have a problem, you write things that are naïve. Celebrities pass out of popularity and get forgotten, just because you remember/know something there is no reason why everyone would. The world moves on, new celebrities come along everyday and the old ones forgotten. All sorts of things are attributed to people like Bruce Lee, it doesn't mean they are true for sure. Take a step back and become more critical rather than gullible.

But tyson hasn't been forgotten due to the fact there's still documentaries coming out about him, he's in movies, he's doing sell out tours and writing books so yeah I wouldn't call that forgotten.

Okay so are you saying Bruce lee didnt leave Hong Kong because he was getting in fights and in trouble with the police, are you saying he wasnt arrogant even when all his friends even said it, are you sayinghe didn't break his friends jaw when that friend even had gone on record saying it happened, are you saying he didnt have cannabis in his system when his medical reports show it and his friend said that he used it.

Now I don't believe he's as good as everyone makes out he was obviously very very good but not invincible and unbeatable as everyone says

 

[Tez3]

But tyson hasn't been forgotten due to the fact there's still documentaries coming out about him, he's in movies, he's doing sell out tours and writing books so yeah I wouldn't call that forgotten.

This is only of interest to those who are interested in him, to everyone else he's a has been. A lot of the world isn't interested in boxing anyway.

Okay so are you saying Bruce lee didnt leave Hong Kong because he was getting in fights and in trouble with the police, are you saying he wasnt arrogant even when all his friends even said it, are you sayinghe didn't break his friends jaw when that friend even had gone on record saying it happened, are you saying he didnt have cannabis in his system when his medical reports show it and his friend said that he used it.

I have no idea and actually nor have you. We know what has been written about him, what has been said but as for what the truth is, who knows? Did Marilyn Monroe commit suicide or was she murdered? I could go on about a great many people in the public eye.

Now I don't believe he's as good as everyone makes out he was obviously very very good but not invincible and unbeatable as everyone says

I think you'll find not everyone says he was unbeatable nor invincible, that again is your supposition.

 

[Paul_D]

So there are plenty of people who think the same, now I know it’s not just me being overly sensitive

I actually like Mike Tyson. Further, knowing what happened when they got back to the hotel room, and the ludicrous actions of his lawyers where nothing short of suicidal, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he never actually committed the crime of which he was convicted.

The fact remains however that he has a conviction, and as I said, you have to wonder what sort of message having his picture sends to the children.

Thank you to everyone that took the time to post their thoughts. This thread has answered the question I intended when I started it.

 

[oftheherd1]

I get what your saying but I don't agree if the kid missed the lesson that's their fault. To me it's the same as if a kid plays grand theft auto then goes and shoots a taxi driver, steals a car and runs people over. People say oh it's the games fault no it's not its the kids fault he did those things if playing a game can make you do that you've obviously got something wrong with you same with that if you see someone as a role model and copy them if they do bad stuff that's your fault. I don't believe in blaming outside sources you take responsiblity for your own actions no one to blame but yourself, if a guy gets inspired by tyson and becomes a rapist if he said to a judge I did it because tyson did it then that wouldn't be acceptable at all

I really don't know how old you are, or if over 30, how much you remember of how you were influenced when you were a kid. But I can tell you that kids are influenced by everything they see others do, or hear from adults. Kids are very much in to soaking things up and getting their own preferences reinforced. Do you really think it is otherwise? I don't mean to take away from everyone's responsibilities for their actions, but if a person is 'taught' wrong, why wouldn't they be expected to act wrong?

 

[Kickboxer101]

I really don't know how old you are, or if over 30, how much you remember of how you were influenced when you were a kid. But I can tell you that kids are influenced by everything they see others do, or hear from adults. Kids are very much in to soaking things up and getting their own preferences reinforced. Do you really think it is otherwise? I don't mean to take away from everyone's responsibilities for their actions, but if a person is 'taught' wrong, why wouldn't they be expected to act wrong?

Common sense simple as that and I'm 21.

 

[Ironbear24]

I don't see what the issue is, if places can have posters of Tito Ortiz and other athletes up who have done things such as abuse their wife, abuse drugs and in general act like a horrible person.

Mike Tyson did horrible things but we as a society have to come to a point where we learn to forgive. He was convicted and served his time and since then has not commited the actions again. Many others continue to do horrible things whole Mike more or less is rehabilitated.

 

[Tames D]

As to hanging pictures on the walls where children study, I think its a matter of whether you want to separate a persons professional and personal life/image. There are many schools with pictures of John Kennedy and Bill Clinton on the walls, both adulterers. Pictures of Muhammad Ali, a convicted Draft Dodger. Possibly pictures of Oscar De La Hoya, Cross Dresser. The list can go on and on.

 

[Juany118]

No, he was a bruiser at a time when there weren't the great boxers around. A boxer/fighter is only as good as his opponents. If he fights journeymen then that doesn't make him a great boxer just a competent one. Half the trick to become a champion is fighting the right opponents.

My Guro/Sifu speaks to this all the time. He often talks about the importance of leg strength and conditioning, not simply because we may kick, but because to sustain footwork and even create a stronger foundation for powerful hand strikes. He will say "Tyson had Chicken Legs in his prime, he simply never faced an opponent at the time who could exploit the fact that he had a weaker foundation."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Pictures of Muhammad Ali, a convicted Draft Dodger.

For the record, Ali's conviction was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in a unanimous decision.

Possibly pictures of Oscar De La Hoya, Cross Dresser

I'm not familiar with De La Hoya's clothing preferences, but are you seriously listing this as some sort of serious character flaw?

The thread started with the question of .whether the picture of a convicted rapist and admitted wife beater should be posted on a dojo wall. I'm not sure that someone whose fashion choices you disagree with falls in that same category.

So does mike Tyson ever achieve redemption?

I dunno. To my mind, the key steps to achieving redemption when you've harmed others are showing genuine remorse, fixing your behavior, and working to make amends. I haven't studied Tyson's life to know how well he's worked on those steps.

 

[Juany118]

I don't see what the issue is, if places can have posters of Tito Ortiz and other athletes up who have done things such as abuse their wife, abuse drugs and in general act like a horrible person.

Mike Tyson did horrible things but we as a society have to come to a point where we learn to forgive. He was convicted and served his time and since then has not commited the actions again. Many others continue to do horrible things whole Mike more or less is rehabilitated.

I think the point being made is that posters of any of these people don't have a place hanging on the wall where children are training. If adults are training and all they care about is "winning" cool but, imo at least, if you are teaching children you don't only have an obligation to teach them martial arts but to set good examples.

 

[Tames D]

For the record, Ali's conviction was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court in a unanimous decision

This is not relevant to my point. Ali evaded the draft, and I don't consider that a good role model for kids. There were a lot of untalented young men, with no money, that evaded the draft without it being overturned by supreme court. And a lot more who did their duty for our country.

 

[Tames D]

I'm not familiar with De La Hoya's clothing preferences, but are you seriously listing this as some sort of serious character flaw?
The thread started with the question of .whether the picture of a convicted rapist and admitted wife beater should be posted on a dojo wall. I'm not sure that someone whose fashion choices you disagree with falls in that same category.

I'm not suggesting that this is a serious character flaw, but perhaps inappropriate as a role model status for children? Some people may think so.

 

[Juany118]

This is not relevant to my point. Ali evaded the draft, and I don't consider that a good role model for kids. There were a lot of untalented young men, with no money, that evaded the draft without it being overturned by supreme court. And a lot more who did their duty for our country.

Well imo, it depends on the "why" and where you stand. If you are simply someone who got deferments or dodged it just because you didn't want to serve because you thought you were "better than that" or afraid yeah. However someone could well see Ali as a good role model for the following reason. The reason why his conviction was overturned was because he claimed a religious exemption. The Court agreed that his refusal to serve was in agreement with his understanding of his religious faith. Some people would actually argue that remaining true to one's religious principles and fighting it all the way to The SCOTUS makes him a good role model.

 

[Tames D]

Fame is fleeting, especially fame that is 'celebrity'. You talk to young people now and many will actually never have heard of Mike Tyson, not everyone is into boxing or even sport. I can tell you know that the kids in my martial arts classes have never heard of Mike Tyson, why would they? Just as they don't know who Frank Sinatra, the Beatles and Greta Garbo were. It's all in the past and names you think are famous? Well they just aren't actually.

Why would they? Perhaps because he was one of the greatest and most controversial heavyweight boxing champions in the world.

 

[Juany118]

Why would they? Perhaps because he was one of the greatest and most controversial heavyweight boxing champions in the world.

Well the thing is if you were born after his time and don't follow boxing the least you could easily say "Mike who?" Because until recently, likely due to the Rape case, he had been very much out of the eye of the General Public. I remember watching "The Hangover" with my teenage nieces and nephews one day and they asked "who's that?" I told them and they said "I guess he was a boxer?"

 

[Tames D]

Well the thing is if you were born after his time and don't follow boxing the least you could easily say "Mike who?" Because until recently, likely due to the Rape case, he had been very much out of the eye of the General Public. I remember watching "The Hangover" with my teenage nieces and nephews one day and they asked "who's that?" I told them and they said "I guess he was a boxer?"

I see your point.