Does Size Matter?

[Goldendragon7]

providing there were no bullets involved.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Just remember, a gun loaded with blanks can kill! Remember John Eric Hecksum ?

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Seig

Just remember, a gun loaded with blanks can kill! Remember John Eric Hecksum ?

Brandon Lee

 

[Goldendragon7]

But "I" have the gun........ hee hee (what, you thought I was crazy)??!!!

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Klondike93



Brandon Lee

That was a real bullet. John Eric's was a blank. He was goofing off, put it to his head and pulled the trigger, the wadding from the blank pushed a piece of his skull into his brain.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

But "I" have the gun........ hee hee (what, you thought I was crazy)??!!!

:asian:

I have been asked on occasiion to do self defense seminars for groups. The first thing I am always asked is what I would do if someone waled up to me, put a gun to the back of my head and demanded my wallet. I generally, at this point have one of them come up behind me and do it. They are always amazed when I slowly raise one hand, reach behind me with the other, take out my wallet and hand it to the "attacker."

 

[Turner]

That was a real bullet. John Eric's was a blank. He was goofing off, put it to his head and pulled the trigger, the wadding from the blank pushed a piece of his skull into his brain

Sounds like he's a candidate for the Darwin Award...

I've often read, even here on MartialTalk that children shouldn't play with weapons. I've owned knives for as long as I could remember and I've used guns since I was seven. First thing I was taught about a gun was that it wasn't a toy and if you ever pointed it at something it was ONLY because you intended to kill or destroy it. (And if I was ever caught goofing off with either a gun or knife I had better be the one that I intended to kill because if I didn't accidently do it to myself, my Dad would do it on purpose.) Lessons like that stick with you and I guess Mr. Eric should have had a father like mine.

There is no excuse for gun accidents like that or things like Columbine and all the other school shootings. I could really go off on this topic because it really makes me sick. There are too many irresponsible parents in the world and it is no wonder that the world is in the shape that it is. There aren't enough people who've stepped up to be a positive role model. Look at the people that kids respect today... gangsters, drug addicts and other dishonorable/disreputable people. Its pathetic. Even religious leaders are turning out to have less worth than pond scum. As if I don't have enough of my own problems, now I gotta go change the world... Good, I finally get a challenge! Woo Hoo!

 

[Seig]

I'd argue with you, but why? I agree with you. Have Whup-***, will travel.

 

[Stick Dummy]

Seig,

Nice point, getting shot is a pain.......

Best case scenario, they take your wallet and scram, a few calls and credit cards can be cancelled & ID re-issued.

worst case - BANG!


There is no clear cut answer due to situational and enviromental issues. Add in other factors like a wife, girlfriend, or children present during such a situation, and what you may think and DO can change from traditional dojo training.

A few weeks ago my club did some training HG vs Knife (or Empty Hands) disarms, and deflections for follow ups.

It came down to the skill level of the particular individual no matter what the weapon, and even the "suprise' variable of someone knowing Counter disarms or even Counter-Counter disarms.

Personally, real world I'd rather give out a pair of 230 gr. Federal "gilded coins" to the miscreant and send them on their way.

Be Safe and train for reality

 

[tonbo]

"Have Whup-***, will travel"???

ROFLMAO!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh, I'm gonna have to use that one......

Peace--

 

[Nightingale]

I've had an unarmed someone try to steal my purse... he asked me for it...I handed it to him. then he grabbed my arm. that was his mistake. I walked away. he didn't. then I drove to a well lit parking lot in front of the police station and proceeded to have a panic attack. mostly my fault for being in the wrong place by myself... <note to self: if the concert gets out late, and you're alone, ask someone to walk you to your car...especially if you parked in an alley. > it was broad daylight when I got there, and I didn't think anything of where I had parked. It was five or six blocks away from the coffee house where the concert was, but it was on a crowded street with a lot of people around...didn't occur to me that a street that is crowded at 6 pm will not always be so populated at midnight, even on a saturday night. <smacks forehead>.

I didn't have any problems giving up the purse...because I never, ever carry my keys, driver's license or credit card in my purse. Those live either in my jeans pockets or the inside pocket of my leather jacket. The only thing in the purse is a little bit of cash and a lot of girly stuff like lipstick...and hey, if a guy wants my lipstick that bad, he's welcome to it. I did get to keep the purse though...for some reason, the guy wanted to lie there unconscious on the pavement... not sure if it was my foot hitting his chin or his head colliding with the concrete that knocked him out, but hey, if someone wants to steal the purse, fine...if they grab my arm and imply that they want more than the purse, then we have a problem. scariest moment of my life. I don't go anywhere alone after dark anymore.

 

[tonbo]

I walked away. he didn't.

Then you did your job. And you are right......that was his mistake.

Joe Hyams, in "Zen in the Martial Arts" was asked what he would do if someone demanded his wallet. His response: "Make change".

I think that is the essence of the point. Mugger wants the car, the money, the purse, even the lipstick--hey, give it to 'em. Those can be replaced. However, when the knife starts waving too close to you or the loved one, or the gun gets leveled off at those same people......the game has changed, and it is time to open the can.

Nightingale, congratulations. I can't say I understand what you went through, since I haven't had quite the same experience; however, I have honestly got to say that I am glad you were able to tell the story. This forum would be much poorer without ya...

And I'm pretty sure that it was your kick that put that stupid sucka out. Maybe meeting the concrete was enough to rattle that pea brain of his into some semblance of intelligence, and maybe not. In either case, I hope you never meet him or his type again (I'm not afraid for YOU, mind you.....I'm more concerned that our educational system is turning out these geniuses.... ).

Peace and good wishes--

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by tonbo


(I'm not afraid for YOU, mind you.....I'm more concerned that our educational system is turning out these geniuses.... ).

Hey...I'm a teacher! LOL. Honestly, the problem is more parents than teachers... we teachers, at least most of us, try our best (and we're sure as heck not in it for the money...I was making $21K last year) but we don't get the support from the parents making the kid do the homework or enforcing consequences for good grades. When you tell a child "I'm going to call your parents tonight to discuss this..." and the kid looks at you and says "Go ahead. They don't care." you know that as a teacher there's nothing more you can do. Without a parent at home making sure there are consequences for poor behavior or poor grades, a teacher can only do so much.

 

[Battousai]

Originally posted by Seig


They are always amazed when I slowly raise one hand, reach behind me with the other, take out my wallet and hand it to the "attacker."

Yes thats a good point, but what I think people are mostly looking for in gun self defense is the option of trying to disarm the gunman. Ofcourse its much safer to just give away your money or whatever, but when it gets to personel injury, in women's cases rape, thats were gun disarmament is needed.

For instance if someone is in the situation and they are very sure that the assailant is going to kill them no matter what they do, this is were gun disarmament comes into play.

Something I hate is all of the martial art schools out there that not only do not teach gun disarmament, but also tell everyone that askes that there is no self defense against a gun, saying things like "at that point all you can do is pray," and other nonsense implying that there are no techniques that can save you.

 

[tonbo]

Nightingale, you are soooooo right. My wife was a teacher for a while, too....high school. She was the same way: tried her hardest, didn't make any money, got no thanks, and some parents *still* didn't care or do their part.....yet griped when the teacher "failed". Hey, folks.....it takes two to tango, ya know?

More power to ya, Nightingale, and no offense meant. I'm behind you. As a parent, I try to reinforce what the teachers teach, and add a bit of respect in on top of that. I only wish more parents would......

And Battousai, you are WAY right. I am in the school that says that you don't fight a gun just to look cool or see if you can do it. That is a last stage resort--i.e., if someone you know, or yourself, is going to get harmed by the gun or gun wielder, then all bets are off, and everything is legal to disarm it.

There is no defense against a gun? Heh....wanna bet? That's what the guy holding the gun *wants* you to think. I think most serious arts have some sort of defense or disarm against weapons. Problem is, the question is whether or not those are *effective*. Disarms should be direct, to the point, and allow you to maintain control of the weapon while getting out of the path of the damage. Anything else is asking for trouble. And shorter techniques are more likely to be remembered under duress, no?

I look at it this way.....my brother once said of fighting: "Hey, I may not win, but at least they'll know I was there". If someone's gonna mess me up with a weapon, I may not succeed in getting it away from him, but I'm sure as hell going to use all my training to try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Thanks for the good point, Battousai!!

Peace--

 

[Nightingale]

my instructor will teach the gun defense techniques, but only if you bug him a lot, and not until you're a black belt. like learning weapons, the gun defense techniques are not part of our regular training or belt requirements, but if we wish to supplement our education with them, we can. I, however, am not a black belt yet, and therefore do not know them, and am choosing to concentrate on my required material and my weapons of choice (bo, kama, chuks) at this time. I do, however, plan on learning the entire parker kenpo system eventually. Techniques are ideas, and the more ideas you try, the more likely one of em is gonna work. In the situation described in my earlier post, I used half an orange belt technique, half a purple belt technique, and the end of another purple belt technique. It worked, it flowed, and it was instinct. I didn't think. I reacted first and panicked later. That's what makes karate work. You have reactions in your muscle memory and they're so ingrained that you react without thinking. If you take time to think, you die, because you think about the situation, you start to process it, and you panic and freeze up. When someone grabs me in a certain way, 13 years of training has told my body to react in a certain way. Because of my training, I was able to react first and panic later. And you do panic later. Your brain runs through all the what ifs and then you get scared, not because of what did happen, but of what could have happened. When I reacted, I wasn't scared. and for some reason, I even checked to make sure the guy was breathing before I left...no idea why I did that. I should've just gotten my tail outa there, but in that situation, you're not thinking. its instinct.

 

[tonbo]

Nightingale, you did just what you were trained to do......it's kinda the same thing that happens with soldiers in combat: you are trained with "stimulus, response, stimulus, response" often enough, when the stimulus comes, the response follows as a matter of course. You were threatened, and you reacted appropriately. (And damn well, I may add!!)

While we do teach weapon disarms below Black rank, it is explored in greater depth after Black. Basically, ya gotta get control of your own movement before tackling something big, I guess.....which explains why I am still working towards it.... However, we do drills with weapons and disarms when we hit the brown ranks, and work with students on disarms that they come up with for their own tests. That way, they get to see what their own individual strengths and methods are. And we test 'em hard, too.....if you are disarming guns, we try to use the realistic rubber versions instead of the foam or wooden ones (to test the weight/feel of more realistic guns) and also use cap guns or dart guns from time to time (to test reaction in pulling the technique off). Adds a bit of realism....

I've heard of guys using actual weapons with wax bullets to test their techniques, but I haven't actually gone that far yet. Great merit to training like that, but I don't think I'm ready for it yet....LOL...

Peace--

 

[Klondike93]

Good to see you tested the principles, made it in one piece, and showed a little compassion when it was over.

It is a scary thing to go through and you did better than most, congrats!!

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Nightingale! Good for you!
I've been very fortunate, over the years, I have had the opportunity to test my "skills" both in and out of the ring. I've seen attacking maces flow into thundering hammers. As a "security" man in several rough bars I've had to use more than a fair share when discussion failed. It's a big help when you know what you train with will help. I'm a big proponent of talk first, fight later. After one particularly nasty engagement in a bar I worked in, I had another would be attacker ask me how I would do against a gun. I told him honestly "That Depends. If over about six feet away, I'm most likely a dead man, unless I too have a gun. Which you have no way of knowing. If under about six feet away, you are definatley a dead man." He calmed down, finished his drink and left. When I was a bit younger and still full of piss and vinegar, I had a boss that was Vietnam Era Special Forces. One night, we were sitting having a beer and this guy was trying to start in with us. Yes, there was a woman involved, my buddies wife to bew exact. Finally my buddy got tired of the threats and said to the man, "Look, you either know you can take me, or you only think you can. If you know you can, is it worth the effort? If you only think you can, is it worth the risk?" That was a show stopper, and an experience I learned from. That particular saying has saved me form a lot of ugliness. Of course the fact that I am short and the size of your average (albeit low) brick wall may help. There is always someone who thinks you are a victim. Show them the error of your ways. The only way to do that is to keep training hard and ask "What if".:soapbox:

 

[tonbo]

"Look, you either know you can take me, or you only think you can. If you know you can, is it worth the effort? If you only think you can, is it worth the risk?"

Very nice. I like that. You are right, that would be a show stopper.

In class, many times, we have talked about appearances and perceptions. We are basically told that, all things being equal (when are they ever, right?), don't worry about the loudmouth who's telling you how he's gonna whip everyone around 'cuz he's so bad. He's giving you all you need to know, which is that he's not all action.

Worry about the quiet guy in the corner who smiles a lot and says very little. He is an unknown, and he could be anything.

That quote is priceless, and just what I have been looking for.

I used to work with a guy who had something similar. Once someone was talking loud to him, and getting a little too close. This guy just said, "Look, pal....the only way you're gonna find out how tough I am is if you try me.....and then, you'd better be damn sure you want to find out." Fight never came off.

Talk first, fight second. But if you gotta fight, get the job done. Once again, good job, Nightingale!!

Peace--