do you think being gay is a choice?

[zDom]

IMO,

I think we may have inclinations, but I think we all make choices on how to "wire" ourselves. Acquired tastes.

Take beer, for example.

Very few people enjoy the taste of beer initially. But those of us who truly enjoy it develop a taste for it, develop a preference. Eventually, we DO like beer.

There are certain visuals or smells or sounds that we might find somewhat attractive (or unattractive!). But then our internal dialogue kicks in and we EMBRACE or REJECT lines of thinking.

In doing so, we decide WHO we area.

For example, a guy may smell another guy walk by and find it smells good. But THEN they might think

a) "Ew! That is another GUY! Smell GOOD? No way! I'm *NOT GAY* Look at Lisa over there! I'd love to ... (etc., etc.)

Or,

b) Mmmmm .. I wonder what it would be like to be closer to him, to... (etc.)


Eventually one will become "wired" either way depending on which thoughts they embrace and which they reject — those decisions probably being based on beliefs, culture, (and yea, to some extent inclinations.) "As a man believes in his heart, so is he."


This is probably what Yeshua (Jesus) meant when he talked about those who lust in their hearts have ALREADY sinned: they've taken that step toward wiring themselves for fornication, or adultery, or pediophelia, or whatever.

So by the time they are adults and sexually active, I guess it is true: yea, that is "how they are wired" and they "can't help" that they are attracted to "X" whether that is men, women, children or goats.

But I really do think at SOME point in our lives — very early perhaps — we all make a choice.



Side topic, cultural rules CHANGE.

Lets take, for example, a 15 year old girl who has matured sexually.


A hundred years ago she would be eligible for marriage.

Nowadays, she is a ticket to the Big House.


So, even though this hypothetical girl is physically an ADULT, our culture has decided she is a "teen" and teen = child so THIS is pedophilia.

So NOW we condition ourselves to reject sexual thoughts about this girl because

to think sexually about her is to embrace pedophilia.


And rightfully so — mentally a 15-year old is not prepared to be an adult in today's culture in the same way a 15-year-old was 100 years ago.

But it has a WHOLE lot more to do with out collective mindset — physically they are still equipped and ready for adult life.

And, even more difficult for Today's Males: we ALL have to "rewire" ourselves somewhere along the line. Because as 15 year old boys, it is OK (culturally correct and encouraged) to think of her as a potential mate (i.e. sexually) isn't it?

But those who embrace such thoughts about a 15-year-old girl at 25 or 30 are sick, eh?

 

[MA-Caver]

IMO,

I think we may have inclinations, but I think we all make choices on how to "wire" ourselves. Acquired tastes.
Take beer, for example.
Very few people enjoy the taste of beer initially. But those of us who truly enjoy it develop a taste for it, develop a preference. Eventually, we DO like beer.
There are certain visuals or smells or sounds that we might find somewhat attractive (or unattractive!). But then our internal dialogue kicks in and we EMBRACE or REJECT lines of thinking.
In doing so, we decide WHO we area.
For example, a guy may smell another guy walk by and find it smells good. But THEN they might think
a) "Ew! That is another GUY! Smell GOOD? No way! I'm *NOT GAY* Look at Lisa over there! I'd love to ... (etc., etc.)
Or,
b) Mmmmm .. I wonder what it would be like to be closer to him, to... (etc.)

This probably occurs more often than is willfully admitted. Outwardly homophobic and inwardly actually attracted to the man in the next cubical or the weight machine next to theirs.
Yet it's still a choice to act upon these impulses or be repulsed by them to a greater or lesser degree.

Eventually one will become "wired" either way depending on which thoughts they embrace and which they reject — those decisions probably being based on beliefs, culture, (and yea, to some extent inclinations.) "As a man believes in his heart, so is he."

This is probably what Yeshua (Jesus) meant when he talked about those who lust in their hearts have ALREADY sinned: they've taken that step toward wiring themselves for fornication, or adultery, or pedophilia, or whatever.

So by the time they are adults and sexually active, I guess it is true: yea, that is "how they are wired" and they "can't help" that they are attracted to "X" whether that is men, women, children or goats.

But I really do think at SOME point in our lives — very early perhaps — we all make a choice.

Choices are influenced by choices that are influenced by choices and many of those are unconscious choices because we've been making them all our lives and it becomes habit or as you say ... hard-wired. It's what we are taught (or not taught) through our childhood. Can anyone honestly say they remember every single thing that occurred in their lives? Every single word we heard and said, and even tougher... every single image, sound, smell (a powerful influence by itself), touch, taste that may (or may not) influence how we perceive things? Of course not. We may remember a lot but not everything. Yet they're there and those thoughts, experiences, feelings, actions, influences, teachings, make us up what we are today.
Our feelings are who we are, deep down inside, not our thoughts. Thoughts are a reflection or an expression of our feelings. I dare say that when we are born we have no thoughts at all, just a bundle of feelings. As our eye sight begins to clear and we see the smiling faces of our mothers and fathers beaming down at us we have a reaction and make a conscious connection from that visual to what we are feeling. Beginnings of thought.
As we get older we learn to read and listen and communicate and thoughts processes are refined and we associate the feelings with those thoughts. All our 5 senses are geared to providing us with information and our feelings are a result of that sensory input... through out our lives.
Say a toddler has a friend and they are always glad to see each other and we adults say aww so cute how they always hug and hang out with each other ... this goes on for a few years, then the parents of one child moves and the other goes on and makes new friends but never quite as close as the one who moved away.
The association of good feelings with another person of the same sex lingers. As an adult they may not quite understand why they have this attraction but it's there, it feels natural it feels normal.
Another scenario... children experiment and even a one time experiment into bodily explorations can be a strong influence into adult hood. I'm sure many can recall that one time in the basement or a sleep-over or behind the shed or in the bathroom, etc. Can it be possible that these experiences influence how we think/feel/act around the same (or even opposite) sex?
I know of a gentleman who was as a young boy molested by his older sister because she was curious and he was handy so she forced him to drop his pants and let her examine him closely. He recalls being frightened because she threatened him (blackmail) and worried about being caught by their parents... but his sister was very imposing and thus he had been very wary & cautious around women for a long time. It bothered him to the point where he had to get therapy and is now married and doing well.
Child molestation does have long reaching ramifications and influences well into adulthood and does sometimes influence a individual's choice in sexual preferences because they're feeling more "comfortable" "safer" with one or the other sex.

Side topic, cultural rules CHANGE.

Lets take, for example, a 15 year old girl who has matured sexually.
A hundred years ago she would be eligible for marriage.
Nowadays, she is a ticket to the Big House.
So, even though this hypothetical girl is physically an ADULT, our culture has decided she is a "teen" and teen = child so THIS is pedophilia.
So NOW we condition ourselves to reject sexual thoughts about this girl because to think sexually about her is to embrace pedophilia.

And rightfully so — mentally a 15-year old is not prepared to be an adult in today's culture in the same way a 15-year-old was 100 years ago.
But it has a WHOLE lot more to do with out collective mindset — physically they are still equipped and ready for adult life.

This is very true. That children 100-150 even 200 years ago were maturing faster than today's children. Necessity demanded it. People didn't live as long as they do now (even without wars) and thus to continue perpetuating the species girls as young as 13 or 14 were married off and often to men 10-15 years their senior. By then a man had his farm/ranch/plantation/business set up and ready to go. A boy of the same age however had a few more years to grow up some before taking on the mantle of manhood... but in some cases they too grew up faster than their counterparts today.
But society has changed, medical advances, safer (comparatively) areas to live in, less of a struggle to put food on the table (shopping as opposed to hunting)... etc. Also the field of psychology had advanced enough to help society realize that at 12-13-14 even up to 17 there was still room to grow at a more leisurely pace and mature more comfortably, thus the practice of marrying young literally died out, because it wasn't necessary anymore.

And, even more difficult for Today's Males: we ALL have to "rewire" ourselves somewhere along the line. Because as 15 year old boys, it is OK (culturally correct and encouraged) to think of her as a potential mate (i.e. sexually) isn't it?
But those who embrace such thoughts about a 15-year-old girl at 25 or 30 are sick, eh?

Girls are just as capable of looking at a 15 yr. old boy and seeing them as a potential mate and probably more likely to and very likely not exactly in the same way that a boy is looking at a girl.
We say it's sick (and I agree... ok?) for a 25-30 yr. old to "lust" after a 15 yr. old because we see it as taking advantage of the emotional and mental immaturity of the 15 yr. old. To take advantage sexually of anyone of any age is sick, more so the younger because it connotates an expression of power, control, dominance and ironically above all ... weakness.

 

[elder999]

We say it's sick (and I agree... ok?) for a 25-30 yr. old to "lust" after a 15 yr. old because we see it as taking advantage of the emotional and mental immaturity of the 15 yr. old. .

Not sick to lust after her; it's biology. No more choice in that than in being gay.

It's sick to act on it, though.....

 

[zeeberex]

Let me pose another question:

Do people choose to be pedophiles? Or is it just how they are "wired"?

stigma anyone?

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally Posted by MA-Caver
We say it's sick (and I agree... ok?) for a 25-30 yr. old to "lust" after a 15 yr. old because we see it as taking advantage of the emotional and mental immaturity of the 15 yr. old.

.
Not sick to lust after her; it's biology. No more choice in that than in being gay.

It's sick to act on it, though.....

Well, as thinking, rational beings that we're supposed to be it is just as sick to lust after her/him at that age biology or no. An adult is supposed to know better. I've met a few 15-16 yr. olds that just are like, gorgeous but I get a grip and refrain from any thoughts or ideas about lust. She's still a child and while she may have developed her womanly curves and figure earlier than other girls ... she is STILL a child... and thus my thoughts about her are accordingly. Lusting after someone who isn't emotionally and mentally ready isn't right and IMO it's wrong to give in to the biology of it, even just thinking about it, because thinking leads to fantasy and invariably fantasy can lead to acting out.
I'm smarter than that I like to think, and I feel that all adults should be likewise. Besides the pillow talk of a 15 yr. old just would not compare to that of a woman in her late 20's and 30's.

But I think we're straying off topic here.

 

[elder999]

Well, as thinking, rational beings that we're supposed to be it is just as sick to lust after her/him at that age biology or no. An adult is supposed to know better. I've met a few 15-16 yr. olds that just are like, gorgeous but I get a grip and refrain from any thoughts or ideas about lust. .

Wait'll you have teenage kids. A veritable parade of nubile young women hanging out at the house. Sure, I nipped those thoughts in the bud, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have them-especially on first glance....you've as much as said that you do as well....
.....God, I hope my kids never see this....:lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

It's called being human, heterosexual and male, I'm given to understand. Our genes don't know or care that society has 'advanced' in the past century or so.

As long as our socialised higher-brain functions have the controlling vote, that instinct level response will never get further than an internally raised eyebrow. That's the important point on such a matter, really.

Of course, there is also the case that the 'Far Country' age divide in such circumstances really is quite a barrier. The genes might not be responding to anything but 'propogation' but the mind is busy recognising all those reasons why May-December relationships hardly ever happen :lol:.

Anyhow, altho' somewhat related I suppose, this is not really addressing the OP as such, so we'd better do a little "nipping in the bud" of our own I reckon .

 

[MA-Caver]

Wait'll you have teenage kids. A veritable parade of nubile young women hanging out at the house. Sure, I nipped those thoughts in the bud, but I'd be lying if I said that I didn't have them-especially on first glance....you've as much as said that you do as well....
.....God, I hope my kids never see this....:lfao:

Well I can acknowledge that a girl is pretty, attractive, beautiful and gorgeous... it doesn't mean that I'm undressing them mentally or even physically desiring them.

But we're off topic anyway... care to start another one?

 

[zDom]

Well, as thinking, rational beings that we're supposed to be it is just as sick to lust after her/him at that age biology or no. An adult is supposed to know better. I've met a few 15-16 yr. olds that just are like, gorgeous but I get a grip and refrain from any thoughts or ideas about lust. She's still a child and while she may have developed her womanly curves and figure earlier than other girls ... she is STILL a child... and thus my thoughts about her are accordingly. Lusting after someone who isn't emotionally and mentally ready isn't right and IMO it's wrong to give in to the biology of it, even just thinking about it, because thinking leads to fantasy and invariably fantasy can lead to acting out.
I'm smarter than that I like to think, and I feel that all adults should be likewise. Besides the pillow talk of a 15 yr. old just would not compare to that of a woman in her late 20's and 30's.

Well said; exactly what I was thinking.

But I think we're straying off topic here.

Or are we?

"because thinking leads to fantasy and invariably fantasy can lead to acting out"

Is definately relevent to the discussion: do homosexuals THINK about homosexual activity (instead of rejecting such thoughts) and thus become homosexual by reinforcing instead of rejecting and eventually act on it? Or do they think these thoughts because they are homosexual?

Might they not, in the same way a "thinking, rational beings" rejects initial thoughts about a teenage girl also reject initial thoughts about someone of the same sex? Is this not a moment of decision?


Btw, not trying to link homosexuality and pedophilia or attach stigma, Zeeb; just thought it would be interesting as a comparison, especially since SOME consider both to be deviant.

 

[MA-Caver]

Might they not, in the same way a "thinking, rational beings" rejects initial thoughts about a teenage girl also reject initial thoughts about someone of the same sex? Is this not a moment of decision?

Yes and coming to a decision one makes a choice. A choice if they will abide by that decision or reject it.
You decide to hit someone you make a choice? Same with whom you sleep with. What you eat. What street to turn up on when you're driving. This TV show or that one. Which movie at the theater. What clothes to wear. Going to work or calling in sick. Nearly 99.999% of what we do is based on choices. We make the same choices about whatever it can become a habit which is a thought which is a way of life.

 

[morph4me]

Yes and coming to a decision one makes a choice. A choice if they will abide by that decision or reject it.
You decide to hit someone you make a choice? Same with whom you sleep with. What you eat. What street to turn up on when you're driving. This TV show or that one. Which movie at the theater. What clothes to wear. Going to work or calling in sick. Nearly 99.999% of what we do is based on choices. We make the same choices about whatever it can become a habit which is a thought which is a way of life.

Agreed, you can make a choice about what actions to take or not to take. Sexual orientation is not a choice, a person can't choose to be attracted to members of one gender or another, they can only choose to act on that attraction or not.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I like cats. I can choose to get a dog, but it doesn't change the fact that I instinctively like cats.

I like black, and I like blue. I can choose to wear/use other colors, but I like blue and black.

I like brunettes. I may choose to sleep with a blond, but it doesn't change the fact that I am much less interested in blonds than I am brunettes.

I like Coke. I may choose to drink Dr.Pepper, but I prefer Coke.

I'm attracted to women. I might choose to sleep with a man, but it doesn't change that I prefer women.


Choice and Preference are not the same thing.
A HomoSexual prefers their own gender.
A Bisexual prefers them both.
A HetroSexual prefers the opposite gender.

Any of the above may choose to sleep with something they do not prefer.
It's a choice.
It's not what they would prefer.

Should I chop your head off or should I blow your head off? Please choose.
Well, I'd prefer to live.
What you prefer isn't a choice that is available to you.

Hey Gay Guy!
You can marry a chick, or you can be single, pick one.
Well, I don't like those choices.
Tough. That's all you can have.

Lifes rather unfair like this.


Sidebar: If God really hates homosexuals, why doesn't God do something about them? I mean, this is the guy who wiped out all life on Earth except for 1 tiny boats occupants, who at a wave of his hand changed languages in Babel, who could selectively wipe out only 1st born Egyptian boys, who took out 2 whole cities because they were so evil. Certainly it's within his power to wave that big hand and turn all the gays into salt right? He's had a couple thousand years to do this. Must not be that important, or maybe, just maybe, God doesn't care, and it's just stupid mortal man who gives a ****. My moneys on the latter.

 

[MA-Caver]

Sidebar: If God really hates homosexuals, why doesn't God do something about them?

Ever hear of AIDS?

It's been said many times before that God (the traditional Christian KJV Bible God) is merciful and that he has patiently waited for his children to repent. As with Lot he sent his messenger out among the populace and begged them to repent... Lot pleaded for the lives of those in Sodom and Gomorrah and managed to talk God (via his angels-- the visitors) down to finding just ONE righteous person (other than himself and his family) in the city... but he could not... because they refused to repent. The bible does not say exactly how long of a time period this took place in. Either way...

God doesn't HATE homosexuals... he just hates what they DO. He just wants them to stop.

 

[Carol]

Yeah cuz only homosexuals get AIDS

/sarcasm

 

[zDom]

I like cats. I can choose to get a dog, but it doesn't change the fact that I instinctively like cats.

I like black, and I like blue. I can choose to wear/use other colors, but I like blue and black.

I like brunettes. I may choose to sleep with a blond, but it doesn't change the fact that I am much less interested in blonds than I am brunettes.

I like Coke. I may choose to drink Dr.Pepper, but I prefer Coke.

I'm attracted to women. I might choose to sleep with a man, but it doesn't change that I prefer women.


Choice and Preference are not the same thing.
A HomoSexual prefers their own gender.
A Bisexual prefers them both.
A HetroSexual prefers the opposite gender.

Any of the above may choose to sleep with something they do not prefer.
It's a choice.
It's not what they would prefer.

Should I chop your head off or should I blow your head off? Please choose.
Well, I'd prefer to live.
What you prefer isn't a choice that is available to you.

Hey Gay Guy!
You can marry a chick, or you can be single, pick one.
Well, I don't like those choices.
Tough. That's all you can have.

Lifes rather unfair like this.


Sidebar: If God really hates homosexuals, why doesn't God do something about them? I mean, this is the guy who wiped out all life on Earth except for 1 tiny boats occupants, who at a wave of his hand changed languages in Babel, who could selectively wipe out only 1st born Egyptian boys, who took out 2 whole cities because they were so evil. Certainly it's within his power to wave that big hand and turn all the gays into salt right? He's had a couple thousand years to do this. Must not be that important, or maybe, just maybe, God doesn't care, and it's just stupid mortal man who gives a ****. My moneys on the latter.

But what I'm asking or suggesting is, are your preferences based on your decisions early in life rather than entirely on natural inclination? Isn't it possible that if early on in your life you had some positive experiences with a dog and chose to give 'em a chance that you might have ended up liking dogs better?

As for your questions regarding the Creator,

a) Freewill

b) Homosexuality is not what people were designed for. SOME species are designed to swing both ways and still reproduce. Not us. It is contrary to our design.

Even if you reject the idea of a Creator who cares about us, consider it in the light of Kant's Categorical imperative: If we ALL embraced homosexuality, it would mean the end of our species.

Having said all that, homesexuality really doesn't bother ME. Guys with guys means less competition for the gals. I've found most gay guys I've met are amusing/entertaining — full of personality and fun to be around. (shrug)

Gals with gals is either

a) Hot

or

b) Something that keeps manly looking women happy with no effect on me.

But the OP asked: "Do you think being gay is a choice?" And I guess, after hashing it out in discussion, my answer is:

YES. A choice made early enough in life that it becomes a hard-wired preference that would be difficult to re-wire.

 

[MA-Caver]

Yeah cuz only homosexuals get AIDS

/sarcasm

I get your sarcasm but it was the choice of otherwise hetros or bisexuals having relations with gays that caused it to spread to non-gays... but initially it was primarily gays who gotten the disease... male gays by the way... lesbians were virtually untouched... that says something I think... :idunno:

 

[jarrod]

but initially it was primarily gays who gotten the disease... male gays by the way... lesbians were virtually untouched... that says something I think... :idunno:

what, that god likes lesbians?

god is a man!

jf

 

[MA-Caver]

what, that god likes lesbians?

god is a man!

jf

What man DOESN'T like lesbians? :lol:

 

[elder999]

What man DOESN'T like lesbians? :lol:

I used to be a card-carrying "lesbian deprogrammer." :lfao:

 

[Gordon Nore]

I get your sarcasm but it was the choice of otherwise hetros or bisexuals having relations with gays that caused it to spread to non-gays... but initially it was primarily gays who gotten the disease... male gays by the way... lesbians were virtually untouched... that says something I think... :idunno:

God doesn't HATE homosexuals... he just hates what they DO. He just wants them to stop.

The disease also spread quite widely through intravenous blood transfusions. Agencies responsible for donor blood ignored warnings from the health community and failed to adequately screen donated blood. Did God have something to do with that? Or was the essentially human ***-dragging over a virus that was associated with gays and IV drug users.