do you think being gay is a choice?

[MA-Caver]

Let me pose another question:

Do people choose to be pedophiles? Or is it just how they are "wired"?

Again, that is a choice. A child is far more vulnerable and less likely to say no when faced with intimidation and confusing psychological attacks by the perp.
Of all the ones that I've known while working at a Sexual Abuse Treatment Center dealing with sex offenders in group (and individual) therapy, it has been a choice to sexualize a child because of convenience, ease, opportunity and essentially talking themselves into it. It becomes exciting because of the extreme taboo associated with it and it makes their lives more "interesting" so they go into a repetitive cycle of low self-esteem, acting out, rationalizing, justifying, minimizing, denial and acting out and then guilt, remorse and abstience, then boredom and right back into low self esteem and it cycles all over again... time and again they CHOOSE to stay into that cycle instead of making the choices of breaking OUT of that cycle.
But that is applicable to sex offenders. Almost all of these guys were married or been married or in hetro/gay relationships prior to their offenses... they all sought something to enhance their "immediate gratification/satisfaction needs" when their partners didn't provide it for them... opportunity arose in a child that they found attractive and twisted that attraction into something sexual because they were being selfish at the time.

 

[arnisador]

Some men don't like oral sex.

What, receiving? Now you're just being preposterous.

The idea that I'm hetro because I haven't met the right man yet, is a good one.
The right person might cause those forces of attraction to reconnect.

You've met me, so that disproves this theory.

I have I suppose an un-orthodox thought on sexual orientation, being that it is neither inbred nor a 'choice'

My belief is that sexual orientation develops at a young age based on discover of sexual stimulation and the surrounding environment or inputs.

In other words, as a person is discovering their own sexuality, the outside stimulus and exposure that generates or is a part of that discovery will strongly influence the associations that go along with that stimulation, which will strongly influence what we desire to feed those still growing appetites, if you will.

Your theory seems to be a blend of this one and the one that immediately follows it. It seems clear that there is some level of biology involved but it also appears that there is an environmental influence too. But it appears to 'set' well before one could call it a choice made by the person.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You've met me, so that disproves this theory.

I'm just not into curly hair.


LOL!

 

[FearlessFreep]

Do you think that if you really wanted to, then you could become sexually excited by someone of your own gender?

Actually, yes I do. I have no interest in but I believe it could be done.

As humans, we *enjoy* being stimulated physically. At a lower level than I think we give conscious thought. Just as food is a more baser need than the taste of hamburger vs steak, and therefore the physical attraction to food is more base than are particular likes or dislikes in the type of food, so do our bodies respond to physical stimulation at a more base level than our particular emotional or intellectual attachment to the circumstances by which that stimulation is given.

The pre ponderous supply of various mechanical, electrical, and manual means by which we do that is evidence enough that we are not as physically picky as we might think. (emotionally picky is another matter)

So I certainly think it's possible to receive physical sexual pleasure from.. someone other than we personally accept as our "orientation" (either way)

Now, given what I said about that I think orientation is strongly a learned/developed attachment between the stimulation of pleasure and the origin of that stimulation I think one could develop a positive attachment other than the one they now accept.

I think, like learning to like different food, different culture, different music, etc... I think it would be much harder to develop that positive association the second time around.


---------
Interestingly, while typing all the above, my mental frame of reference was from that of a heterosexual person (myself) becoming homosexual, which I think would be theoretically possible given the right conditions. However, I suppose it sounds like I'm advocating the other way around...I was careful to try to avoid specifying much in terms of orientation or direction.

 

[FearlessFreep]

But it appears to 'set' well before one could call it a choice made by the person

Yes, that sums it up well and I almost said that, but I was trying to avoid saying the term "chosen for you" because that sounds a little more fatalistic than the tone I was going for

 

[jks9199]

First -- let's not confuse sexuality with love. They are not true synonyms. Love is an emotion felt between two people; sex may or may not figure into the equation. It's quite possible to love someone of the gender that would be the target of your sexual interest -- and feel no sexual attraction to that person.

Sexual orientation is a complex issue. Looking at the patterns of abuse victims becoming abusers themselves, it's clear that there is some sort of nurture (or malnurture in the case of abuse) aspect or effect -- but it's also clearly not that simple. Today, we've seen people raised in VERY homosexual households who were heterosexual, and vice versa. My personal best guess is that we are "wired" with proclivities or tendencies; environmental factors then influence those tendencies as we grow and mature, shaping the final expression.

One final note -- even the Catholic Church doesn't view homosexuality IN ITSELF as sinful or immoral. Instead, it recognizes that homosexual acts, LIKE ANY SEXUAL ACT, outside of the bonds of marriage is sinful. See the links HERE especially paragraph 2358:

The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

. And homosexuality is not the same as pedophilia or sexual abuse of any other children.

 

[Makalakumu]

A couple of thoughts...

1. What about prison love? Certainly close emotional sexual relationships develop in prison between members of the same sex.

2. Also, I remember reading a study on rats that showed that their was a marked increase in homosexual behavior as the population of rats rose. This study was used to show that homosexuality could very well be a population control mechanism.

I don't think its cut and dry either way. Some people decide. Some people are just wired that way. Regardless, its not something I consider immoral.

 

[Gordon Nore]

A couple of thoughts...

1. What about prison love? Certainly close emotional sexual relationships develop in prison between members of the same sex.

That issue is discussed in the same Wikipedia article posted on this thread:

Desire, behavior and identity

Some people distinguish between

1. opposite/same-sex desires
2. opposite/same-sex sexual activity/behavior
3. attraction to the other's sex (male/female) vs. attraction to the other's perceived gender-characteristics (masculine/feminine)
4. self-identifying as straight, lesbian, gay, etc.

Mainstream medical organizations have made clear that ”sexual behavior does not necessarily equate to sexual orientation.“[15]

My understanding, essentially, is that individuals, under circumstances of isolation, like prisons or work camps, may form physical and even emotional/romantic connections with others of the same gender, then abandon these relationships and return to heterosexual life. Even with these relationships in their history, they do not necessarily identify as homosexual or bisexual.

 

[DavidCC]

I don't think a homosexual man is choosing to be so, concisously. Are they that way becasue of some pre-natal biology, some post-natal biology, or some environmental factors 9learned behavior?) I don't know. But most gay guys I ahve ever known have been just as attracted to the male body as I am to the female; and conversly repulsed in the reverse.

I've known some guys who were bisexual, I'm not as sure that this is biological as much as psychological.

My wife and daughters make me sit through hour after hour of Project Runway. Quite a corss-section of male homosexuals on there; from the ridiculously flaming to the 'wouldn't know if he didn't tell you'. I think this is where the choice comes in... how you act, how you want people to perceive you, is all about what is going on in their head. Some people want to be special SOOO badly they will putup with a lot of derision from society at large.

I have a theory that if being gay was as mundane as having brown hair, many of these guys would find something else to build a personality around.

 

[Big Don]

I KNOW it is a choice in some cases, more than a few people have told me so.
Explain Anne Heche. Was she "born gay"? If so why is she now married to a man? It isn't the 1950's she never had the star status of Rock Hudson, even if she had, in this day and age homosexuality isn't a bar to employment in Hollywood the way it was.

 

[kaizasosei]

At some level i think there are choices made. However, i think that everyone is to a certain degree at mercy to the compulsiveness of their personal type of sexuality. Remember that Freud discovered that sexuality is a big part of our society as well as an individuals psychology.
Jung suggested that every person has a female aspect of an anima as well as a male aspect of animus. In a healthy individual, there is a sort of balance achieved-irrespective if someone is straight or gay.
Question is then, is it a choice to be goofy or a loudmouth. Is it a choice to be a criminal? Is it a choice to like a certain kind of music? Some would say yes, others would say no...
it's really hard to say. But i understand the logic, because you are saying that if it is a choice, then those that are straight or gay are only so because of a concious choice and not some deeper vocation.

Basically, i think that people are all capable of a much greater diversity of sexual experience than they typically partake in. So in essence sexuality is a type of luxury in itself in the typical society of today..especially in certain circles. In some circles it is shunned as something wrong.

I personally believe that the question of being gay or straight has much more to do with selfimage as well as deepseeded feelings towards a certain sex or type of person.
But as i see it, it is irrelevant if someone is straight or gay at many levels. The most important thing is that one is not exploiting others in any way whatsoever.

It's not about whether on not one can have sex with such or such a type of person or sex, what is way more important is if one can feel love for them and treat them accordingly and respectfully. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, takes on a whole new meaning here. That again takes for granted that what we have the same wishes and tastes, which is not always the case. In many places it is taboo to touch someones food for example, while in other places with different understandings of hygiene it may be natural

At some time in our life, we develop a kind of abstract image of our personal 'perfect someone'. If that happens to be the same sex, then it is most natural to be gay.

The question is, can or should in certain instances, something that strong be surpressed? If surpressed i believe it might be counter productive and harmful to self as well as surroundings. On the other hand, if someone has sortof malevolent sexual tendencies(which latently we can and do relate to albeit with repulsion, aggression or hatred) then it would be a service to those that they exploit or hurt to surpress the urges.

Another question is, can sexual orientation change? Chemically and hormonaly speaking it can, but under what conditions will the human being actively change their self image to such a degree that they feel more attracted to a certain sex over another or even become bisexual? In the black and white world we live in, bisexuality seems somewhat out of place, however, it is reported that many celebrities especialy women profess to being bisexual.

Living in a society, we are in many ways connected and one and the same species.
Basically though, to try and solve this mystery i would focus on the aspect of love or partnership, because in all healthy relationships, that is more important than the physicaly sexual aspects.

Taken to a further level, sexuality is a simply a state of mind having much to do with a certain type of harmony, privacy as well as intrusion. That is why respect and deep understanding of the human being is a crucial ingredient to ALL social interaction.





j

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

You are born with it.

Freud like to say:

theorized that every person has the ability to become bisexual at some time in his or her life.[24][10] He based this on the idea that enjoyable experiences of sexuality with the same sex, whether sought or unsought, acting on it or being fantasized, become an attachment to his or her needs and desires in social upbringing

You can try the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

I have friends who consider themselves gay but who have had sex with woman and told me sex is just sex unless you have emotional attachment to that person.

I have heard of guys using sex on another guy not because they are gay but as an act of humilation in prison. Though we could say on some level that they are gay.

If we follow the Kinsey scale and Freuds logic we can see that Human sexuality has the capacity to go either way and is not always in such extremes.

Noone chooses their sexual orientation. An innate drive will draw you into that direction. We can however choose to explore our sexuality which can result in engaging with the same sex but how we identify ourselves within our own sexuality is not a choice it is a need fullfilled by our stimuli.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I think sexual oreintation and fetishes are (read the WHOLE statement before passing judgement) personnal subconscious decisions made based heavily on elements ingrained in our DNA and/or based on pyschological responses from our expreinces. Now, stay with me here...

Take your sex of choice. What is your favorite part of that sex (ie, what gets you off). In Women your probably going to say things like big boobs, round butt, long legs, what ever. In Men it's probably what ever involving the butt, and ripped thighs. Guys, I'll be the one to break the news to you, few women are actually turned on by your arms or abs.
Those things probably have genetic reasons to them. What are boobs for? Breast feeding babys. Maybe there's something to your/your husbands interest in big boobs. And you can kinda figure out the rest.
As for being gay/straight. There are quite a few animals that will change there sex is a population is too heavily one sex. Maybe our species is evolving to that point, and homosexuality/bisexuality is just the first part of that evolutionary process.
But, there are 'ghosts in the process' of evolution (ie, your tonsils and appendix). But, I don't think that sexual orientation is something that is simply an anomoly.

Now, with everything I have said above, I would like to say that I do recognise that there are members of the GLBT community who are not completly GLBT. I figure that probably about 20% of the population (at most) is simply having phase/trying to tick of mommy and daddy.

 

[Gordon Nore]

If we follow the Kinsey scale and Freuds logic we can see that Human sexuality has the capacity to go either way and is not always in such extremes.

I suspect as the stigma associated with homosexuality retreats, sexuality will be seen more on a continuum than in polarizing terms.

The term, heterosexual, which originated in the late 1800s, only came into popular use in the 1960s. I remember seeing an old clip of Steve Allen asking people on the street, "Are you a heterosexual?" The reactions he got were priceless. Tried to find it on YouTube, but it didn't come up.

 

[Twin Fist]

I dont know


For some, they lead a life style by choice

for some, they dont.

so I dont know.

 

[shesulsa]

I dont know


For some, they lead a life style by choice

for some, they dont.

so I dont know.

I would agree.

There appear to be people leading gay lives who have been damaged in some way at some point; there are people who appear to be gay who are trying to lead hetero lives because they can't stand the thought of the difficulties in facing the truth.

I've met many GBLT people of varying persuasions-of-origin but most people I've known who appear (to me, at least) to be happy with their lives insist that this is something they've always known from their earliest possible memories.

I'm sure the topic question, in it's origin, was intended to be a simple yes-or-no, so in that context ... when we're talking about a gay person who was not damaged/raped and we're talking about their sexual orientation alone ... no, I don't think it's a choice in that context.

I'll refrain from further expansion because I don't want to throw the thread off.

 

[Nomad]

I don't know.

Unfortunately, I have a very limited pool from which to draw my conclusions. Me. I don't believe that I made a conscious choice somewhere along the way to be a heterosexual; I just knew that somewhere around 13-15 I started really noticing some of the girls in the short skirts at school.

For that matter, I don't think I ever made the conscious choice of who I found physically attractive; it was something fairly innate to me, although I could certainly analyze it and say what I liked best about them and what I didn't.

If I didn't make those choices, I wouldn't presume that anyone else did either, especially given the social stigma, threats of violence, and other difficulty that comes with the "wrong" "choice".

Most, if not all, of the people that I know who are homosexual have stated similar things to me; they believe that it was almost purely biological and that they didn't make choices in their sexual orientation along the way (although they have made the harder choice of letting others know that they were gay, risking the loss of friendships, social stigma, violence, etc).

Who am I to say that they're wrong?

 

[JBrainard]

I haven't read this thread yet (I've got a meeting to go to), but I posted something on this subject a while ago on a different thread:

Sit right back and I'll tell you a tale...
My wife's best friend. She was raised fundamentalist Christian and remains one to this day. I have had many discussions / debates with her about Christianity over the years and I want to point out that she is strong in her convictions and faith, does not follow the "sheep" mentality of some churches, and is not a hypocrit when it comes to the teachings of Christ.
That's the set-up. The twist is that she is a lesbian. She has always been a lesbian. Being a very strong believer in her Church's views on homosexuals, she has gone through so much heartache over the years that it depresses me as I type this. This is not something she chose. She has always hated this part of her. So, a few years ago, she started to go to one of those "we'll turn you strait" Christian groups. She proclaims that she is now cured. The problem is that she isn't attracted to men, which makes it very hard to have a relationship with one. She will not admit to herself or to us that she is still, deep down, a lesbian. But it is so sadly obvious to anyone who knows her well. She has not had a relationship of any kind now for two years, and she is becoming suicidaly depressed. If anyone doesn't want to be a homosexual, it's her. After seeing all the pain and self hatred she has gone through, and the sad failure of her "turning strait," I find the opinion that homosexuals can "turn strait" offensive, insulting, and mean-hearted.
I'm sure there are people out there who are experimenting with their sexuality, calling themselves gay, and then, what do you know, being "turned strait" through Christ works. If that's what makes them happy, more power to them.
But, sorry folks, I've seen it with my own teary eyes, a true homosexual can't be unmade.

 

[MA-Caver]

I haven't read this thread yet (I've got a meeting to go to), but I posted something on this subject a while ago on a different thread:

Originally Posted by JBrainard
Sit right back and I'll tell you a tale...
My wife's best friend. She was raised fundamentalist Christian and remains one to this day. I have had many discussions / debates with her about Christianity over the years and I want to point out that she is strong in her convictions and faith, does not follow the "sheep" mentality of some churches, and is not a hypocrit when it comes to the teachings of Christ.
That's the set-up. The twist is that she is a lesbian. She has always been a lesbian. Being a very strong believer in her Church's views on homosexuals, she has gone through so much heartache over the years that it depresses me as I type this. This is not something she chose. She has always hated this part of her. So, a few years ago, she started to go to one of those "we'll turn you strait" Christian groups. She proclaims that she is now cured. The problem is that she isn't attracted to men, which makes it very hard to have a relationship with one. She will not admit to herself or to us that she is still, deep down, a lesbian. But it is so sadly obvious to anyone who knows her well. She has not had a relationship of any kind now for two years, and she is becoming suicidaly depressed. If anyone doesn't want to be a homosexual, it's her. After seeing all the pain and self hatred she has gone through, and the sad failure of her "turning strait," I find the opinion that homosexuals can "turn strait" offensive, insulting, and mean-hearted.
I'm sure there are people out there who are experimenting with their sexuality, calling themselves gay, and then, what do you know, being "turned strait" through Christ works. If that's what makes them happy, more power to them.
But, sorry folks, I've seen it with my own teary eyes, a true homosexual can't be unmade.

Well she might want to look into WHY she finds men unattractive.... that might be a start.

 

[kaizasosei]

Really, being a guy and all, i can definately understand not being attracted to men.
Maybe your friend just hasn't found the right man. Hey, being alone is never easy no matter if you're strait or gay. ****, i was alone for two years and it sucked. If it wasnt for my code of spirituality i would have probably been suicidal too. Thing is though, one must believe that as sure as night turns to day, there are chances and there does come a time when love is reborn in a new relationship. Also, if one really truly makes it a priority, one can speed up the process and go out and find something.

Sounds to me like a problem of not knowing what one wants, or worse still what one needs. Shouldn't be alone for too long. Dunno about those weird Priests and Nuns...i mean how they do it and abstain all that time. It's probably mostly ********... i bet they be either strange or secretly exercising as masturbating machines. But for most mortal people, being lonely or alone for too long does suck. I can testify to that.

Many times, it is spirituality, that is supposed to set the person free, that is responsible for guilt, freakish vegitarianism or veganism, anti substance and anti whatever demonising cultish ****....pisses me right off.

It's not that being vegie or vegan is bad at all, ****it, everyone should go to and eat or not eat whatever the **** they want. It just pisses me off when they think that their code is the one and only or ultimate truth and that they are better than everyone else. What abnoxiously audacious and disrespectful.


j