Do Firearms Cause Murder...

Don Roley

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I just finished reading On Killing by Dave Grossman yesterday. I highly reccomend it to anyone involved in martial arts. In the early sections he goes through some interesting stuff about the parts of the brain and how they react in terms of learning and conditioning that is very relevant to anyone involved in teaching people to survive a violent attack.

But the bulk of the book is about how people can be conditioned to overcome their natural reluctance to take another's life. And the last part is devoted to the impact on society as a whole.

He points out that people are worried now about kids bringing guns to school. But kids have always lived around guns. There were more guns in the homes of kids in the past, and yet it is only now that we are so worried about the problem that we are putting metal detectors at the entrances to school.

He says the question is not where kids are getting the guns, but why now they are doing things prior generations would not.

I can't condense a 300+ page book here, so I really think people should get the book. But his co-author on his later book, Loren Christianson (who is registered here BTW) wrote the following piece that kind of deals with a lot of the same points.

http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/Kidskillarticle.html

Read the above article and ask yourself what we would need to do to change the situation. Some of what he writes about has a bearing on the first ammendment. Can you imagine the ruckus that would explode if any politician dared to try to take on some of these things in a meaningfull manner? I myself would have a huge problem with the idea.

Grossman also points out all the other factors that makes American society so prone to violence now as compared to in the past. We have increased the amount of people behind bars about four times since the 70s and that seems to be the only reason the figures are actually not that bad. The worst offenders are out of circulation for now.

People in this thread have tried to point to Japan as a country that does not have guns and has less murders by guns. They try to say that a lack of guns means less gun violence. But you don't have to worry about things like people trying to attack you with a knife in comparison to the US. How does a lack of guns explain the lower number across the board of violent crimes? It doesn't. There are a lot of factors involved in the problem. And any US politician that tries to even bring up some of them will get raped in the media and have to find a new job.

You want an example? I can tell you that in Japan the norm is that a woman stops working and stays at home after she has child. Contrast that with America. Do you think that people are going to sit still while someone even tries to raise the issue of there maybe being a link?

Oh, and the cultural thing with some sub cultures of America is just another death trap for anyone willing to touch it. You would be called a racist as if it were fact even if you are a member of that race.

And can a politician really show to the voters that he has done something against violence and school shootings by tackling all the various issues that really have an impact?

So instead of dealing with all the numerous factors that make up the situation, the best route for the politicians to do after yet another school shooting is to require having a trigger lock sold with firearms. Gee, I feel so safe. :rolleyes:
 

shesulsa

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I'm reading that book right now as well, Don. I'd love to discuss it more with you, but, I just started! :)

You cited a cultural difference between Japan and the US ... Am I correct in reading your post to say that acceptance of socially guided roles and social status in the Japanses culture (as opposed to the rejection of oppression of any sort including it's inflictor) is responsible, in your eyes, for a lower crime rate?
 

Phil Elmore

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just wanted to quickly comment that I believe that it is absurd to think that if every man or woman over 18 carry a firearm, that the world would be a safer place.

You can think it's absurd, but it's statistically supportable. When citizens are armed for self-defense, they are more safe, not less safe. Anyone who believes otherwise is evading reality and substituting his or her wishful thinking for reality. What's more, if you support gun control you are not a "martial" artist at all.

Guns, "Gun Control," and "Martial" Artists
 

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Don Roley said:
People in this thread have tried to point to Japan as a country that does not have guns and has less murders by guns. They try to say that a lack of guns means less gun violence. But you don't have to worry about things like people trying to attack you with a knife in comparison to the US. How does a lack of guns explain the lower number across the board of violent crimes? It doesn't. There are a lot of factors involved in the problem. And any US politician that tries to even bring up some of them will get raped in the media and have to find a new job.

You want an example? I can tell you that in Japan the norm is that a woman stops working and stays at home after she has child. Contrast that with America. Do you think that people are going to sit still while someone even tries to raise the issue of there maybe being a link?

First, I think I agree with you.

But you also have a situation in Japan where the police have greater rights to search and seizure than in the US. And if I am not mistaken it is a guilty until proven innocent country, unlike the US.

Also in China you have fewer gun crimes, but you generally have both parents working. The police in China do not carry guns, but once again they have greater powers. And you have a guilty until proven innocent legal system.

I cannot speak for Japan, but in China the punishments tend to be harsher and more certain for all crimes and for gun crimes, depending on the governments feeling, the punishments may vary; several years in prison to death penalty.

And I know Chinese people that are absolutely terrified of hand guns, but an AK-47 does not bother them in the least. This also may be in part due to the fact that the majority of college students are required to go through military training at some point.
 

Phil Elmore

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The fundamental flaw in the reasoning of all people pointing to nations with strict "gun control" as having lower levels of violent crime miss one very important fact:

These nations had much lower levels of violent crime, compared the US, BEFORE they enacted their strict laws.

Violence is cultural. It is not determined by the availability of weapons.
 

shesulsa

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Phil Elmore said:
What's more, if you support gun control you are not a "martial" artist at all.

That is to say ... in your opinion.
 

Phil Elmore

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No, it's objectively correct. You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition any more than you can be an animal rights activist who works in a lab experimenting on chimps. The concepts are mutually philosohpically exclusive -- a logical contradiction. Unless one is willing to embrace logical contradiction and paradox, the two cannot coexist.
 

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Phil Elmore said:
No, it's objectively correct.

I am not saying I am for or against arms control here, I am just curios, but where does your data originates from? Where do you get these statistics?

Although I will agree that most countries level of violent crime is lower than the US, but why is that? The luck of the draw, stricter laws, it certainly is not lower population. And is it really lower in a country such as (this is only for example) India where you have a very large population with very little ability to report a crime? Basically if you shoot everyone around you and there is no one left to report it, is it a violent crime?

Is ethnic cleansing considered a crime or something else?

Can you be guiltily of a violent crime in a war zone?

Phil Elmore said:
You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition any more than you can be an animal rights activist who works in a lab experimenting on chimps. The concepts are mutually philosohpically exclusive -- a logical contradiction. Unless one is willing to embrace logical contradiction and paradox, the two cannot coexist.


I should also ask you define what you mean by arms prohibition before I make my next statement, but I am basing it on the possibility you are staying within the post and talking guns in general.

But I think you would have a lot of disagreement in and with martial artist from China, Japan, Singapore, etc. with your statement.

"You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition"
 

Flatlander

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Phil Elmore said:
No, it's objectively correct. You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition any more than you can be an animal rights activist who works in a lab experimenting on chimps. The concepts are mutually philosohpically exclusive -- a logical contradiction. Unless one is willing to embrace logical contradiction and paradox, the two cannot coexist.
I'd be interested to see you justify your position with logic. How are they philosophically exclusive?

According to Wikipedia,

A martial art, often referred to as a fighting system, is a system of codified practices and traditions of training for combat, usually (but not always) without the use of guns and other modern weapons. Today, people study martial arts for various reasons including sport, fitness, self-defense, self-cultivation (meditation), mental discipline and character development, and self-confidence.
The term "martial arts" is slightly anomalous in its English usage. Its strict meaning should be "arts for military use" (flying fighter aircraft, sniper training, and so forth) but in normal usage it is used to refer to formalized systems of training to fight without modern technology.

Note the the discrepancy between the "strict" usage and the "normal" usage of the term "martial art".

Regarding the philosophical "exclusivity" you wrongfully declare, it seems to me that I can have an interest in defending my person physically, while still pushing for restrictions on gun ownership.

BTW, you may note that you seem to have changed your position somewhat. Note that you said: "if you support gun control you are not a "martial" artist at all", and then subsequently proclaimed, "You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition".

As I'm sure you can agree, there is a noteworthy difference between the concepts of control and prohibition.

Either way, I can support both quite fine as a martial artist. So, how can you logically lay out your argument, Phil?
 

Phil Elmore

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The Wikipedia is hardly what I'd call a definitive source on anything. It's an international graffiti board and does not determine the working definition of "martial art."

I justify my position with logic in this article and touch on some of the same concepts here. The first article I cited earlier in this thread. (Weren't you the one who got angry before when I didn't read something you cited before responding to your post?)

Martial arts and self-defense are mutually exclusive to civilian disarmament. If you support disarming the citizenry you support making it more difficult for them to defend themselves. You cannot them claim to be a self-defense exponent.

Oh, and no, there is no difference between "gun control" and arms prohibition. "Gun control" is a euphemism for the prohibition of arms to free citizens. Those who claim to be for "reasonable gun control" are either philosophically naive or outright lying. Those seeking to "control" privately owned "small arms" will not be satisfied with "reasonable" regulations. Historically they never have been.
 

shesulsa

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Phil Elmore said:
Oh, and no, there is no difference between "gun control" and arms prohibition. "Gun control" is a euphemism for the prohibition of arms to free citizens. Those who claim to be for "reasonable gun control" are either philosophically naive or outright lying. Those seeking to "control" privately owned "small arms" will not be satisfied with "reasonable" regulations. Historically they never have been.

I'd say that what you stated here applies more to government officials and lobbyists rather than individual or groups of private citizens. I just told a friend of mine today, "Give me access to assault weapons, but keep them out of the hands of the whacko down the street who spent 3 years in Bellview."
 

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Xue Sheng said:
I am not saying I am for or against arms control here, I am just curios, but where does your data originates from? Where do you get these statistics?

Although I will agree that most countries level of violent crime is lower than the US, but why is that? The luck of the draw, stricter laws, it certainly is not lower population. And is it really lower in a country such as (this is only for example) India where you have a very large population with very little ability to report a crime? Basically if you shoot everyone around you and there is no one left to report it, is it a violent crime?

Is ethnic cleansing considered a crime or something else?

Can you be guiltily of a violent crime in a war zone?

I should also ask you define what you mean by arms prohibition before I make my next statement, but I am basing it on the possibility you are staying within the post and talking guns in general.

But I think you would have a lot of disagreement in and with martial artist from China, Japan, Singapore, etc. with your statement.

"You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition"

Phil

It's not like you not to answer questions. See above.

Also I feel I should point out a bit of a flaw, in my opinion, of your justifacation. First although you do mention statistics and other publications in your justifications you say you are quoting from memory, which is very much like saying "because I say so" in an academic setting.

Also you have a definition of "Martial" and it appears to be from Dictionary.com. If it isn't it looks exactly like the definition of martial in dictionary.com which is

mar•tial
adj.
Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

However if you go to the same site and enter "Martial Art" you get the following definitions.

martial art
n.
Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.

martial art
n: any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport; "he had a black belt in the martial arts"

Key thing to note here "Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense"

Although I do believe this definition is a bit flawed since many CMAs that I do or have seen use spears, swords, staff, etc. But never a gun.

Either way it shows that the definition of martial does not necessarily equal the definition of martial art.

None I have ever seen, practiced or studied have ever discussed the application of guns, unless it was an application as to how to take a gun from someone.

As for gun control. I choose not to voice my opinion here. As for the statement "You can't be a martial artist while supporting arms prohibition any more than you can be an animal rights activist who works in a lab experimenting on chimps.” First I do not think the second example is proof or you’re first, second I feel you are way off base with this statement and show an incredible lack of understanding of the martial arts from east Asia.
 

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Phil Elmore said:
The Wikipedia is hardly what I'd call a definitive source on anything. It's an international graffiti board and does not determine the working definition of "martial art."
Thank you Xue Sheng for answering this point exactly as I was about to.
1. I justify my position with logic in this article and touch on some of the same concepts here. The first article I cited earlier in this thread. 2. (Weren't you the one who got angry before when I didn't read something you cited before responding to your post?)
1. It seems as though your article relies quite heavily one fallacious supposition. That is, that regulating gun ownership (my definition of gun control) equates to civilian disarmament. Phil, they are not the same thing. In my perfect world, guns would only be legally owned by civilians who had passed rigorous qualification standards, which you acknowledge is not the current status quo. I don't think society is well served by allowing any regular city boy, untrained in safe firearm handling and shooting technique, to run around with a lethal sidearm. This would be quite contrary to an acceptably safe community, IMO. I don't, however, think that it's prudent to take away everyone's firearms. Equating control with disarmament undermines your logical platform. So, try again.

2. Yes, and that's due to the fact that adding a comment in when you are unfamiliar with the premise of the topic is trolling by most definitions. I don't care much for trolls. Hence, a negative response to you. Aside from that, I asked you for your logical argument. Your article doesn't meet that standard, and thus doesn't answer the question.
Martial arts and self-defense are mutually exclusive to civilian disarmament. If you support disarming the citizenry you support making it more difficult for them to defend themselves. You cannot them claim to be a self-defense exponent.
This is fuzzy logic at best. You discount the role of law enforcement in your proposition: perhaps with more resources, law enforcement would be able to eliminate illegal gun ownership. If law enforcement can eliminate illegal gun ownership, why again do you need to carry? Please, set aside your fears that you may need to rise up against your government one day, and let's deal with the everyday occurrences of robbery, home invasions, carjackings, and the like. Self defence scenarios. If you needn't defend against a sidearm, why would you need to carry one?

Now, I realize that this isn't realistic in terms of what's going on today. But, that doesn't preclude society's ability to start making some intelligent choices. Has law enforcement been successful in reducing illegal gun ownership? Certainly not so far. However, do they have all the necessary resources to do the job? Not by a long stretch. Give them the resources they need, and perhaps we'll see some positive changes.

So, I'll ask you now, which postition would you guess would be more likely to be that of a real martial artist: one that espouses more gun violence, or one that espouses less? You advocate unrestricted access, I advocate responsible access coupled with a genuine focus on reducing the illegal guns on the street. I think my suggestions are worth considering.
Oh, and no, there is no difference between "gun control" and arms prohibition. "Gun control" is a euphemism for the prohibition of arms to free citizens. Those who claim to be for "reasonable gun control" are either philosophically naive or outright lying. Those seeking to "control" privately owned "small arms" will not be satisfied with "reasonable" regulations. Historically they never have been.
This is fear mongering and projectionism. You're saying, "oh, you say you want responsible control, but you really mean you want to take away my guns!" No, don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying if you aren't going to be safe according to a reasonably high standard, on the street carrying your sidearm, you shouldn't have it.

Advocacy of public and personal safety is, in fact, concordant with the philosophical reference frame of a martial artist. To prevent war, a peace loving society must be fostered. Any real martial artist will tell you that the best defense is to prevent the altercation in the first place.
 

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Whenever this stuff comes up, I always think that Guns do not kill people.
People kill people, so outlaw people. Where's the cries for people control?
 

Xue Sheng

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Mr.Rooster said:
Whenever this stuff comes up, I always think that Guns do not kill people.
People kill people, so outlaw people. Where's the cries for people control?

I am all for people control, if they use a gun to kill someone, or attempt to kill someone or harass someone, arrest them and put them in prison. As for gun control, I could go either way; the jury is still out on that one.

As for "do guns kill people?"...of course they do, but it is not alone.

The gun cannot do any killing on its own, it takes someone to load it and pull the trigger.

It isn't likely that a person throwing bullets at you will do much damage, and unless someone throws an unloaded gun at you it isn't too much problem either. As for the bullets, if they are sitting in a box on the shelf, they are not all that dangerous either. And a person sitting all by himself sans gun isn't likely to shoot some one. But put the 3 together and you can have problems.

A very good friend of mine that works for a local PD once said, he has no problem with guns, just drunks with guns, whether that gun is a hand gun or a shotgun in the hands of a drunk its a real problem.
 

Phil Elmore

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So many people have "no problem" with guns -- as long as they get to decide who gets them and who does not.

In a free society, we either see our fellow citizens' freedom of action as a benefit, or as a threat. Those who see that freedom of action as a threat will never be comfortable in a free society.

That is, that regulating gun ownership (my definition of gun control) equates to civilian disarmament. Phil, they are not the same thing.

Yes, they absolutely are the same thing. You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. Historically, all attempts to regulate gun ownership invariably become attempts to register and then confiscate privately owned firearms. It has happened again and again. It happened in the UK, for example, and it is being attempted in Canada right now (as well as in parts of the United States).

This is fuzzy logic at best. You discount the role of law enforcement in your proposition: perhaps with more resources, law enforcement would be able to eliminate illegal gun ownership. If law enforcement can eliminate illegal gun ownership, why again do you need to carry?

It is not "fuzzy logic;" it is the immediate and logical outcome of such a philosophy. Even if it was possible to guarantee that no illegal firearms existed, this would not negate the efficacy of the firearm as a tool of perosnal protection. You seem to wrongly and foolishly believe that the only time a firearm is necessary is when one faces another firearm. Multiple opponent scenarios or scenarios in which the opponent is bigger, stronger, faster, or more trained are all scenarios in which a citizen would require a force multiplier for legitimate self-defense.

Please, set aside your fears that you may need to rise up against your government one day, and let's deal with the everyday occurrences of robbery, home invasions, carjackings, and the like. Self defence scenarios. If you needn't defend against a sidearm, why would you need to carry one?

Please do not waste my time with intellectually dishonest attempts to mischaracterize the topic. Arms in the hands of law-abiding citizens are a necessity for any free society, for reasons ranging from self-defense to resistance to tyranny. This is a fact no matter how much you plead to have it dismissed in order to strengthen your own ill-conceived argument.

Now, I realize that this isn't realistic in terms of what's going on today.

No, it isn't -- it's wishful thinking, which is the foundation of all pleas for gun control by people who do not own guns, who are not familiar with guns, and who presume to speak of what should and should not be allowed concerning devices of which they have almost no knowledge.

Has law enforcement been successful in reducing illegal gun ownership? Certainly not so far. However, do they have all the necessary resources to do the job? Not by a long stretch. Give them the resources they need, and perhaps we'll see some positive changes.

That is nonsense. More resources are now devoted to this than ever before; more laws are in effect now than ever before; there is a reason alcohol prohibition was a dismal failure.

So, I'll ask you now, which postition would you guess would be more likely to be that of a real martial artist: one that espouses more gun violence, or one that espouses less? You advocate unrestricted access, I advocate responsible access coupled with a genuine focus on reducing the illegal guns on the street. I think my suggestions are worth considering.

A hoplophobe cannot be a martial artist, as I argued in my essay. If you fear guns, if you wish to dictate who may own them and who may not, you are not furthering the cause of self-defense; you are harming it in order to pursue your wishful thinking. "Gun control" is a proven failure, whereas access to firearms make citizens safer. This is statistically supported by the work of Kleck and Lott, whose studies are the most comprehensive to date and whose methodologies have not been successfully pr credibly criticized.

This is fear mongering and projectionism.

No, it is a historical fact.

Advocacy of public and personal safety is, in fact, concordant with the philosophical reference frame of a martial artist.

Advocating tying others' hands in order to make one feel safer is not the act of a martial artist. A martila artist empowers his or her fellow citizens for self-defense.

To prevent war, a peace loving society must be fostered. Any real martial artist will tell you that the best defense is to prevent the altercation in the first place.

No, to prevent war, a strong ability to wage war must be maintained. Only the ability to fight frees one from the necessity to do so.
 

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Phil Elmore said:
So many people have "no problem" with guns -- as long as they get to decide who gets them and who does not.

In a free society, we either see our fellow citizens' freedom of action as a benefit, or as a threat. Those who see that freedom of action as a threat will never be comfortable in a free society.
In your own words:
There can be no self-defense – there can be no martial art – where reality is not recognized and where fantasy is substituted for fact.
so let's deal with reality for a minute.

You refer to this ideal of a free society - ostensibly alluding to gun regulation as undermining that free society. Here's an interesting question - is driving a motorized vehicle regulated? Face it, everything is regulated. This is reality. Guns are already regulated. I don't understand the objection to the idea of restricting gun ownership to those that meet a higher standard of ability.
 

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