Disciplining Kids

[Lynne]

My time is coming. If I pass my spotlights and tests, I will become a 3rd gup, red belt, in November. At that time, it's a requirement that I "swat." SWAT stands for students working as teachers.

My daughter just began swatting. The first class went great. Mind you, there is a black belt instructor and swatters are there to assist, not take over the class. Basically, swatters are to correct students that the instructor cannot see. An instructor cannot see all 10 kids doing a form. Classes can range up to 45 students or more and there are usually 4 instructors.

The second class was wild. I think it's because the kids were having fun week. (That's hell week for adults though.) The kids get to do fun activities like tumbling, balancing, and jumping over obstacles (plyometrics). They were being terrors. One red belt kid kept taking his belt off but wasn't old enough to know how to tie it, so my daughter kept tying it back on. She'd told him to not take his belt off but he ignored her. The kids were taking the ends of their belts and slapping each other with them, trying to start fights. They began lying and saying so-and-so jumped ahead when so-and-so hadn't.

The instructor threatened to make several of the boys sit out. They became more boisterous because they wanted to sit out.

I suppose there isn't much you can do since the days of bamboo spankings are over. Not that I would want anyone touching my child, period.

Parents. Therein lies a problem, too. Parents have gotten into it with the instructors when an instructor was verbally admonishing a child for bad behavior.

My daughter hasn't swatted enough for us to know if the kids are like this on a regular basis or just special occasions where they are hyped up. I expect Christmas and Halloween and such would be crazy.

So, there isn't much you can do, I suppose. Is it mainly holidays and such that the kids act up?

What do you do to discipline children?

 

[terryl965]

Push ups, sit ups, crunches and running. Anything to keep them moving if it continues a sit down with the parent and then suspension after that they are ask to leave.
Period no room for dis behaving kids and parents that do not care.

 

[Steve]

At my school, the instructor keeps the kids busy, and that seems to do the trick. When they're tired or working hard, they don't tend to screw around.

Another option is to reduce the number of kids in the class. If the instructors are having too much trouble controlling the kids, there are too many kids.

Also, you mention that he "threatened to make several of the boys sit out." Make them sit out. Don't threaten. If it's what they want, great. Having kids in the class who don't want to be there diminishes the value for those kids who DO want to be there.

And invite them to leave the class on a particular day if they're being too disruptive. No sitting out; just ask them to leave.

Ultimately, as a junior instructor, you won't have any more control over the kids than your senior instructor. If he or she doesn't have control, no one does.

 

[DavidCC]

do you have those brass rings in the dojo? Put on of those on each wrist and have them hold their arms out in front or to the side for a few minutes.

 

[Lynne]

Push ups, sit ups, crunches and running. Anything to keep them moving if it continues a sit down with the parent and then suspension after that they are ask to leave.
Period no room for dis behaving kids and parents that do not care.

I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them. Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class. I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.

I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything. I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.

The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.

I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave. Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home. I would imagine that MA turns most of them around. Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes. I think I'm terrified of having to swat.

 

[Lynne]

At my school, the instructor keeps the kids busy, and that seems to do the trick. When they're tired or working hard, they don't tend to screw around.

Another option is to reduce the number of kids in the class. If the instructors are having too much trouble controlling the kids, there are too many kids.

Also, you mention that he "threatened to make several of the boys sit out." Make them sit out. Don't threaten. If it's what they want, great. Having kids in the class who don't want to be there diminishes the value for those kids who DO want to be there.

And invite them to leave the class on a particular day if they're being too disruptive. No sitting out; just ask them to leave.

Ultimately, as a junior instructor, you won't have any more control over the kids than your senior instructor. If he or she doesn't have control, no one does.

Funny you should mention class size. They just split the classes up - green and red are in one class; white, yellow and orange are in another instead of all in one.

When the kids were goofing off, they were lined up waiting their turn for an activity, or they were sitting and waiting. I'm not an instructor so I will have no say-so, but having those waiting do jumping jacks or bouncing would be a good idea. As adults, we never stand idle in line...but that's to keep our heart rates up

 

[Lynne]

do you have those brass rings in the dojo? Put on of those on each wrist and have them hold their arms out in front or to the side for a few minutes.

Afraid not.

 

[terryl965]

I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them. Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class. I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.

I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything. I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.

The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.

I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave. Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home. I would imagine that MA turns most of them around. Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes. I think I'm terrified of having to swat.

your last statement is so true 98% of all the kids we have had a problem, but when they sign up we have sit down with each parent and explain we can help lay down the foundation here but you must keep it going at home when shopping and the rest of the time. No matter what we cannot make them do what the parents will not participate in.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

See, I'm sorry, this is a major reason I left one school when younger( it was a less than great school to start with, this was just "the last straw")

There is no....NO earthly reason anyone should be made to teach unless they make known their desire to become teachers/school owners themselves.

Far as I'm concerned this is just the school owners withholding rank to get free labor out of students, and it's bull****.

 

[Lynne]

your last statement is so true 98% of all the kids we have had a problem, but when they sign up we have sit down with each parent and explain we can help lay down the foundation here but you must keep it going at home when shopping and the rest of the time. No matter what we cannot make them do what the parents will not participate in.

Oh, you mean they still need to be a parent! I shouldn't make jokes really. Some kids are problems no matter how good the parenting is.

That's great you lay down a foundation and ask the parents to follow through. I feel blessed that I did not have a problem child.

 

[terryl965]

Oh, you mean they still need to be a parent! I shouldn't make jokes really. Some kids are problems no matter how good the parenting is.

That's great you lay down a foundation and ask the parents to follow through. I feel blessed that I did not have a problem child.

Me too!!!

 

[Lynne]

See, I'm sorry, this is a major reason I left one school when younger( it was a less than great school to start with, this was just "the last straw")

There is no....NO earthly reason anyone should be made to teach unless they make known their desire to become teachers/school owners themselves.

Far as I'm concerned this is just the school owners withholding rank to get free labor out of students, and it's bull****.

Well, it will certainly be a learning experience. I was good with kids when my daughter was in grade school. They just loved me. Kindergartners are allowed to scream and be a little crazy. And I could give them hugs, make jewelry for them, and put them on my lap. I was like a second mom or a bestfriend. But the MA atmosphere is going to be different.

I do wonder how some people will do swatting. Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. But we have to do it at least once EVERY week. That's at least one-and-a-half years or however long it takes to make black belt. Our GM wants black belts who are active. (My idea of active is coming to class regularly and teaching at higher rank but much more is required than that to make black belt.)

 

[Kacey]

Students who are disrupting class should either be given something repetitive to do (to keep them busy for a while, and tire them out at the same time) or should be removed from class. It is not fair to students who are there to learn that instruction is less available because there are students who aren't doing what they should.

In this particular example, if the boy kept taking off his belt when being told not to do so, then he should have, IMHO, been booted out of class. He was wasting other students' time. Being able to dress yourself (including tying your belt) is a requirement for yellow belt in my class - I cannot imagine why a red belt would not be able to do so.

As far as the group of boys who were goofing around and lying - that is totally unacceptable to me in a dojang situation. If they wanted out of class badly enough to disrupt class - then let them out. If they quit, or their parents take them out, because they were booted out because of their behavior, so be it. If I were a student in that class, or the parent of a student in that class, and saw myself or my child regularly not getting instruction because someone else's child(ren) would not behave, I would be extremely upset - and would probably hit the point rather rapidly of saying "either the disruptive kid(s) leave, or I/my child will". It may sound harsh - but if you're paying for instruction, and not getting it because of some other student - then you're getting gypped out of your money, and something needs to be done.

As far as requiring students to teach - I expect my students to help with their peers and juniors during the regular class time - but I have never, and would never, require them to come in during another time to help teach. If they want to do so - great! But requiring it outside of their regular class time falls under mandatory volunteer work - and even if I thought that was acceptable, there are laws against mandating unpaid work. If you get a discount on your dues, that's one thing - but otherwise, it's quite likely illegal.

 

[MJS]

My time is coming. If I pass my spotlights and tests, I will become a 3rd gup, red belt, in November. At that time, it's a requirement that I "swat." SWAT stands for students working as teachers.

My daughter just began swatting. The first class went great. Mind you, there is a black belt instructor and swatters are there to assist, not take over the class. Basically, swatters are to correct students that the instructor cannot see. An instructor cannot see all 10 kids doing a form. Classes can range up to 45 students or more and there are usually 4 instructors.

The second class was wild. I think it's because the kids were having fun week. (That's hell week for adults though.) The kids get to do fun activities like tumbling, balancing, and jumping over obstacles (plyometrics). They were being terrors. One red belt kid kept taking his belt off but wasn't old enough to know how to tie it, so my daughter kept tying it back on. She'd told him to not take his belt off but he ignored her. The kids were taking the ends of their belts and slapping each other with them, trying to start fights. They began lying and saying so-and-so jumped ahead when so-and-so hadn't.

The instructor threatened to make several of the boys sit out. They became more boisterous because they wanted to sit out.

I suppose there isn't much you can do since the days of bamboo spankings are over. Not that I would want anyone touching my child, period.

Parents. Therein lies a problem, too. Parents have gotten into it with the instructors when an instructor was verbally admonishing a child for bad behavior.

My daughter hasn't swatted enough for us to know if the kids are like this on a regular basis or just special occasions where they are hyped up. I expect Christmas and Halloween and such would be crazy.

So, there isn't much you can do, I suppose. Is it mainly holidays and such that the kids act up?

What do you do to discipline children?

The situps and pushups have worked for me in the past. Of course, if the kid can't do them properly, then theres really no sense in having them do them, because they're not going to be doing them right. An alternative for that was to hold the pushup position. Yes, they got tired and raised or lowered themselves, but I'd make them get right back to the proper position. If people are being that disruptive, remove them from the class altogether. I didn't put up with fooling around when I taught. It didn't matter if the kid was 5 or 12, if they were fooling around, they were taking away from not only my time, but from the others who are not fooling around.

At my last school, the head instructor pretty much backed the decisions of his instructors. So, if I removed someone from class, made them do 50 pushups, etc. we usually weren't questioned, and if a parent was getting to the point where they couldn't understand why we made their kid sit out, he had no problem with telling someone to leave.

IMO, we (the instructors) are there to teach. The students are there to learn. Like I said above, if someone is fooling around, I have to stop and take away from the people who are paying attn. and that isnt fair. If the parents can't understand this, then they have no business sending their kid for lessons, because they're obviously not ready. What happens in school? The kid would go to the principals office.

 

[Lynne]

Students who are disrupting class should either be given something repetitive to do (to keep them busy for a while, and tire them out at the same time) or should be removed from class. It is not fair to students who are there to learn that instruction is less available because there are students who aren't doing what they should.

In this particular example, if the boy kept taking off his belt when being told not to do so, then he should have, IMHO, been booted out of class. He was wasting other students' time. Being able to dress yourself (including tying your belt) is a requirement for yellow belt in my class - I cannot imagine why a red belt would not be able to do so.

As far as the group of boys who were goofing around and lying - that is totally unacceptable to me in a dojang situation. If they wanted out of class badly enough to disrupt class - then let them out. If they quit, or their parents take them out, because they were booted out because of their behavior, so be it. If I were a student in that class, or the parent of a student in that class, and saw myself or my child regularly not getting instruction because someone else's child(ren) would not behave, I would be extremely upset - and would probably hit the point rather rapidly of saying "either the disruptive kid(s) leave, or I/my child will". It may sound harsh - but if you're paying for instruction, and not getting it because of some other student - then you're getting gypped out of your money, and something needs to be done.

As far as requiring students to teach - I expect my students to help with their peers and juniors during the regular class time - but I have never, and would never, require them to come in during another time to help teach. If they want to do so - great! But requiring it outside of their regular class time falls under mandatory volunteer work - and even if I thought that was acceptable, there are laws against mandating unpaid work. If you get a discount on your dues, that's one thing - but otherwise, it's quite likely illegal.

It is definitely outside of our class time. We swat children in children's class; we go to adult class. I never thought of it as being illegal. No discount on the dues. If you don't do it, you will never test for black belt. (There may be exceptions for people with learning disabilities. I wouldn't expect that they could teach necessarily.)

 

[Kacey]

It is definitely outside of our class time. We swat children in children's class; we go to adult class. I never thought of it as being illegal. No discount on the dues. If you don't do it, you will never test for black belt. (There may be exceptions for people with learning disabilities. I wouldn't expect that they could teach necessarily.)

As an aside - learning disabilities generally affect the ability to learn to read, write, or do math; I cannot see it being relevant to teaching a physical activity - any person so impacted as to be unable to teach a physical ability is unlikely to be able to learn it in the first place, and that goes well beyond a learning disability.

My students help me in class; I expect it, and none of them have ever complained, because they have all benefited from the extra help themselves at some point. Requiring someone to work for free is illegal; I don't know how making it a testing requirement affects that, but I suspect it's still illegal - what about people whose schedules/responsibilities preclude their attending the kids' class? What about students with transportation problems? When I started TKD, I didn't have a car - I took a bus - there's no way I could have gotten there any earlier due to the bus schedule, and I had to leave class exactly on time or I missed the last bus, and there was no way I was going to walk home 8 miles, starting in downtown Denver after dark. What about single parents with children who are not in the class? There are a lot of issues I could think of that would prevent a motivated student from being able to assist at the kids' class - should those people all be denied a black belt solely because their lives prevent them from "volunteering" for a mandatory requirement? That does not seem appropriate to me.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

As I said--bovine fecal matter.

But we did it to ourselves the moment we decided back whenever it was that it was OK to teach MA's to persons under 18.

 

[jks9199]

I wondered about having them do something that would just tire the devil out of them. Master R was teaching the other day and I saw that he had the red belt kids doing squat thrusts AFTER class. I don't know if that was punishment or endurance training for red belts.

I can't imagine Master R letting the kids get away with anything. I remember not too long go when he lectured them and he was not happy.

The day the kids were acting up with my daughter, Master R was not there.

I agree that there is no room for kids who misbehave. Some parents bring their kids to class because they are discipline problems at home. I would imagine that MA turns most of them around. Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes. I think I'm terrified of having to swat.

That's a tactic I've used with distracted or unenergized kids... If they can't pay attention, it must be time for some exercise. The front leaning rest (up position of a push-up) can be a good punishment; rather than simply sitting on the sideline, have them hold the front leaning rest for several minutes.

 

[DavidCC]

2 inch leg raises, flat in their back, hands at sides, heels 2 inches off the floor. And put another (well behaved) kid in charge of them to make sure they don't cheat.

 

[Lynne]

It has been said that parents have interfered when their kids were being lectured or punished. They've actually leaned over the half-wall that goes around the training area or have attempted to enter the training area.

I had to laugh at what my daughter said. She was pretty steamed the night the kids were so bad and she had a pounding headache after (she also attended adult class after the kid's class and we were having hell week - rough class). She feels the parents aren't doing their jobs in disciplining but the instructor's hand are basically tied because parents complain if their kids are disciplined. I asked her what she would do if she was telling a child to behave and the parent came over and fussed at her. She said she would tell the parent, "I'm disciplining them because obviously they aren't receiving discipline at home." I couldn't help but laugh. That's pretty wise for an 18 year old. I told her, "Don't you dare say something like that." :jediduel: