OP
- Thread Starter
- #141
Its been done. Just choose.
Sean
Disadvantages of Kenpo?
- Thread starter Touch Of Death
- Start date
Sean
I think it's Martin Wheeler.:asian:
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rmcrobertson
Guest
A WHOLE two years of study, eh?
One of the central disadvantages of kenpo is this: given its original design as a rapid, efficient means of self-defense, and given the history of money-making that is part of kenpo's tradition (not that that's all different from traditional arts), and given its approach to other arts, lots of students operate off a real disdain for the very things that they need to learn most.
Perhaps we could not rehash the whole silly "grappling argument," again?
One of the central disadvantages of kenpo is this: given its original design as a rapid, efficient means of self-defense, and given the history of money-making that is part of kenpo's tradition (not that that's all different from traditional arts), and given its approach to other arts, lots of students operate off a real disdain for the very things that they need to learn most.
Perhaps we could not rehash the whole silly "grappling argument," again?
Brother John
Senior Master
Pete-
Mr. Paul Mills, GM of the AKKI, has developed just such a system of 'Kenpo-based ground fighting training' as a part of our regular curriculum. There aren't any videos and I kinda doubt there will be. He does teach seminars, but you need to be an AKKI member to go to them generally.... so there's not money grabbin...
just goooood movin...
Robert: Just wondering, why do you feel that a discussion of grappling is silly? Maybe I'm just not clear on your reference.
Your Brother
John
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Pretty straightforward reasons, actually. Because it's always the same claims, and because it's not really a discussion.
Look at this thread. The guy who's brought it up?
He doesn't really want to discuss the issue, and he doesn't really want to learn what other people might think, or have experience with. He wants a validation of what he's already decided, whether this comes from a hearty yeah baby, you're absolutely right," or a disagreement that he can read in ways that agree with his biases.
The only interesting things, as far as I can see, would be discussions of how grappling got into style, the reasons it's so often seen now as absent from kenpo as a system, the ways that "grappling," represents one more example of the constant fascination with something new-n'-fancy rather than plain old training. As for the exposures of limitations--sure, they are there. In my training, in your training, in everybody's training. Sure. Learned that, in some part from these discussions. Got it. Really. Enough.
But I never expected to become the perfect warrior, or whatever the current dream is. Figured I'd learn self-defense, better physical skills, a more-reasonable attitude, better flexibility and conditioning, etc. etc. etc. And sorry, but grappling is simply not the only hole in my skills. Nor is it, I think, the main one or even close.
If folks wanna do this stuff, learn judo, whatever, I say more power to 'em. But I get a little tired of the arrogant missionary work, even if it is just on a forum.
Again--I think a FAR more serious limitation in kenpo comes out of these fantasies about shake-n'-bake martial arts. For a very small number of people, OK I guess--though I still say they'r missing out on the whole world.
Or to put it another way--anybody think that ANY of the grappling/MMA/compleat warrior guys who get on these forums could get into a serious fight with, say, Mike Tyson and survive for five minutes? I know I'd be lunchmeat, as far as he's lost it....
Look at this thread. The guy who's brought it up?
He doesn't really want to discuss the issue, and he doesn't really want to learn what other people might think, or have experience with. He wants a validation of what he's already decided, whether this comes from a hearty yeah baby, you're absolutely right," or a disagreement that he can read in ways that agree with his biases.
The only interesting things, as far as I can see, would be discussions of how grappling got into style, the reasons it's so often seen now as absent from kenpo as a system, the ways that "grappling," represents one more example of the constant fascination with something new-n'-fancy rather than plain old training. As for the exposures of limitations--sure, they are there. In my training, in your training, in everybody's training. Sure. Learned that, in some part from these discussions. Got it. Really. Enough.
But I never expected to become the perfect warrior, or whatever the current dream is. Figured I'd learn self-defense, better physical skills, a more-reasonable attitude, better flexibility and conditioning, etc. etc. etc. And sorry, but grappling is simply not the only hole in my skills. Nor is it, I think, the main one or even close.
If folks wanna do this stuff, learn judo, whatever, I say more power to 'em. But I get a little tired of the arrogant missionary work, even if it is just on a forum.
Again--I think a FAR more serious limitation in kenpo comes out of these fantasies about shake-n'-bake martial arts. For a very small number of people, OK I guess--though I still say they'r missing out on the whole world.
Or to put it another way--anybody think that ANY of the grappling/MMA/compleat warrior guys who get on these forums could get into a serious fight with, say, Mike Tyson and survive for five minutes? I know I'd be lunchmeat, as far as he's lost it....
cfr
Black Belt
You are correct. I cant beleive I was actually stupid enough to even consider having an opinion after only 2 years of study. Please accept my most humble guy of apologies. "If it pleases you, I would gladly lay down my life for you". :rofl: (paraphrase, The Last Samuri)
That silly grappling arguement was meant as an example. I wasnt trying to rehash anything but merely reply to the original post. This is why I dont normally reply to these forums. Because some Kenpo Elitist always gets waaaayyyy to serious about someone else having views different from his. Sorry I didnt post correctly. Apparently Im just not doing it right. I'll work on answering in a fashion that will be acceptable to you. :rofl:
Geez Mr. Robertson,
You rip anybody that has less time than you!!!
I have seen you consistently post about how you think 2 yrs is not much time. That it is not enough time to pose questions of meaning. I posted my time spent on another forum and was blasted by you with the same
attitude.
In this time I have never seen you state you experience, or rank. (It is actually irrelevant.) but as forum user who wants to know who they are talking too, and cannnot stand Anonymous, you drop a heavy hand on those that are forthcoming with their biographies.
I have agreed and disagreed with you on many topics. but to be condescending towards 2 years of study is less than positive. I believe you teach at your school as well, but in what atmosphere?
I do think you have a no nonsense type attitude, but a man of your education in both academia and martial arts just comes off pompous and anal.
I do apologize for the tone of this post, but it is sickening to see someone who is my senior destroy perception of the art he and I both hold dearly.
Salute,
JD
You rip anybody that has less time than you!!!
I have seen you consistently post about how you think 2 yrs is not much time. That it is not enough time to pose questions of meaning. I posted my time spent on another forum and was blasted by you with the same
attitude.
In this time I have never seen you state you experience, or rank. (It is actually irrelevant.) but as forum user who wants to know who they are talking too, and cannnot stand Anonymous, you drop a heavy hand on those that are forthcoming with their biographies.
I have agreed and disagreed with you on many topics. but to be condescending towards 2 years of study is less than positive. I believe you teach at your school as well, but in what atmosphere?
I do think you have a no nonsense type attitude, but a man of your education in both academia and martial arts just comes off pompous and anal.
I do apologize for the tone of this post, but it is sickening to see someone who is my senior destroy perception of the art he and I both hold dearly.
Salute,
JD
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Actually, what I think--as you'd know if you'd asked rather than just fantasizing--is that after about 12 years and a little more of study, I still know just enough to get into trouble and not nearly enough to get back out again. As for what I don't think, I don't think of myself as ahura-mazda's gift to martial arts, that's for sure. How 'bout you?
As for "destroying your perception," well, I don't see why anybody's perception would be built around what I think--especially the perception of people I wouldn't know from Adam.
Has it ever occurred to you that my--and other people's--"tone," might be brought on, just a little, by the fact that the considerable majority of these posts about grappling and kenpo start out with somebody telling everybody else that what they're doing in the art is a complete waste of time? That the techniques we worked hard to learn, the basics study, the mat time and most particularly the kata are just plain dopey?
Go back through and check. Were things posed as questions? As topics worth dicussing? Or was it, "Well, you guys tell me that learning the art (which I haven't, before somebody starts up again) takes years, but you don't know nothing. Why should I put in the time, the energy, the sweat, that other people did? Why should I even read what other people with more experience are saying?
Think I haven't got that right? Well, here's the relevant quote:
"I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:
1; The emphasis on forms..."
I realize that I should work harder on remaining polite when I write. So should we all. I see that nobody's arguing with my ideas, but attacking me personally. OK, fine. It's just a dopey forum discussion, filled with my dopiness as well as yours.
Maybe you guys are simply outta my league insofar as physical talent, and ability to learn go. You certainly wouldn't be the only ones: good for you. It's wonderful to see the truly gifted go. But--what do YOU think it means, when the biographies of the best there have ever been say over and over and over again how hard they trained, how long it took, how much they feel they have to learn?
As for "destroying your perception," well, I don't see why anybody's perception would be built around what I think--especially the perception of people I wouldn't know from Adam.
Has it ever occurred to you that my--and other people's--"tone," might be brought on, just a little, by the fact that the considerable majority of these posts about grappling and kenpo start out with somebody telling everybody else that what they're doing in the art is a complete waste of time? That the techniques we worked hard to learn, the basics study, the mat time and most particularly the kata are just plain dopey?
Go back through and check. Were things posed as questions? As topics worth dicussing? Or was it, "Well, you guys tell me that learning the art (which I haven't, before somebody starts up again) takes years, but you don't know nothing. Why should I put in the time, the energy, the sweat, that other people did? Why should I even read what other people with more experience are saying?
Think I haven't got that right? Well, here's the relevant quote:
"I only took Kenpo for 3 months. Ive also been in MA for only 2 yrs now. Im aware that because of this, my opinion doesnt count to alot of you and thats fine. In addition to that forgive me as Im sure some of this has already been covered. I tried to read all 10 pages of your replies, and I actually made it through the first 6. But I just couldnt do it any more. The problems I see with Kenpo are:
1; The emphasis on forms..."
I realize that I should work harder on remaining polite when I write. So should we all. I see that nobody's arguing with my ideas, but attacking me personally. OK, fine. It's just a dopey forum discussion, filled with my dopiness as well as yours.
Maybe you guys are simply outta my league insofar as physical talent, and ability to learn go. You certainly wouldn't be the only ones: good for you. It's wonderful to see the truly gifted go. But--what do YOU think it means, when the biographies of the best there have ever been say over and over and over again how hard they trained, how long it took, how much they feel they have to learn?
I ignore all arguments based on time-in-art.
I found much to agree with in cfr's post. Of course, I am not a Kenpoist--like him, these are some of the things I see as an outsider looking in.
I found much to agree with in cfr's post. Of course, I am not a Kenpoist--like him, these are some of the things I see as an outsider looking in.
cfr
Black Belt
Im sure you' re not referring to me, since I didnt write anything like that. That might be what you read, but thats not what I wrote. Again, I apologize for having an opinion.
S
Shiatsu
Guest
" Well if 90% of all fights end up on the ground, 100% of them start on your feet".
I thought of that myself:shrug:
I thought of that myself:shrug:
CFR- Welcome to the forum. Regardless of your experience with Kenpo, please continue to post and give your feedback. One thing that you'll realize, is that saying anything negative against this art, will usually result in a HUGE bashing from some people. I should know...I've been on the receiving end of it for a loooooooooong time now. It really is a shame how some people can be so close-minded to other arts and what they have to offer.
Again, thanks for your feedback!
Mike
cfr
Black Belt
Cool and thank you for the welcome.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
It's got nothing to do with merely having a differing opinion. It's got to do with expressing contempt for an art, and the people who study it.
"Cfr's" previous post, which I've already quoted, asserted that:
a) kenpo, like other traditional arts, simply has too many forms.
b) People in kenpo are too closed-minded.
c) There is far too much analysis in kenpo, and this analysis destroys useful self-defense.
d) The techniques are too complex, and require too much time to learn.
CFR's argument, as explicitly stated, was based on two years or less of training, and three months in kenpo.
Please tell me: what, precisely, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? I'll cheerfully concede: what, exactly, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? Did I get the three months wrong?
As for basing arguments on "time-in-grade," I am afraid that this is not even remotely what I argued. Nor, pace, "MJS," did I argue that either kenpo was perfect or that I was. I seem to recall--and I rechecked--saying precisely the opposite. Among other things, I've repeatedly noted that there are a very few who might not need extended training and practice of the sort I did, and do--though I must confess it is my argument that even the very, very best seem to train their asses off over years. May I ask that you, too, re-check?
And one last thing--I do not believe that ANY form of training will equip the vast majority of us to even begin to handle a real knock down drag out with a professional like Tyson, sunken as he is. If that asserts the perfection of kenpo, well, it's a reading that I find a little twisted.
All I'm requesting are a few manners, an attempt to understand BEFORE attacking.
"Cfr's" previous post, which I've already quoted, asserted that:
a) kenpo, like other traditional arts, simply has too many forms.
b) People in kenpo are too closed-minded.
c) There is far too much analysis in kenpo, and this analysis destroys useful self-defense.
d) The techniques are too complex, and require too much time to learn.
CFR's argument, as explicitly stated, was based on two years or less of training, and three months in kenpo.
Please tell me: what, precisely, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? I'll cheerfully concede: what, exactly, did I misrepresent, distort or misunderstand? Did I get the three months wrong?
As for basing arguments on "time-in-grade," I am afraid that this is not even remotely what I argued. Nor, pace, "MJS," did I argue that either kenpo was perfect or that I was. I seem to recall--and I rechecked--saying precisely the opposite. Among other things, I've repeatedly noted that there are a very few who might not need extended training and practice of the sort I did, and do--though I must confess it is my argument that even the very, very best seem to train their asses off over years. May I ask that you, too, re-check?
And one last thing--I do not believe that ANY form of training will equip the vast majority of us to even begin to handle a real knock down drag out with a professional like Tyson, sunken as he is. If that asserts the perfection of kenpo, well, it's a reading that I find a little twisted.
All I'm requesting are a few manners, an attempt to understand BEFORE attacking.
cfr
Black Belt
Heres the deal; Whatever. I just dont care.
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Lighten up and play nice.
As far as the rest of the discussion goes here's my input.
CFR, from a beginner's or an outsider's view point, I can see what you are saying. From an insider's view point, I have to disagree. Do I consider you or anyone else wrong, from time to time, yes. Does this negate your right to an opinion, no. The diasadvantages or wholes in Kenpo, do not remain with the system, but with individuals. The grappling issue remains hot. Some schools do it, others do not. To illustrate a point, a couple of months ago, we had a few visiting black belts from another system, when they realized that as stand up fighters, they were not going to best our upper belts, they tried grappling with us. One of their other black belts who is also a regular in our school told them, "I told you guys not to try that here, it wouldn't work with them." The reason being? As a student's knowledge and skills progress, I also bring in ground work. I start it about orange belt when they learn Dance of Death. That technique is the perfect segue into learning how to fall properly, and from there we progress further. I, too, had a serious disdain for forms, even after acheiving my third black. It took a very good instructor to show me the error of my thinking and to change my mind. They are still not my favorite aspect, but I understand much more now. The techniques are not difficult, the difficulty lies in how they are shown and explained. At one point a few years ago, when I started teaching Kenpo in WV, I was not looking to turn out well rounded, complete martial artists. I was looking to turn out people I could bang with. To that end, I focused strictly on fighting and self defense. As a result, I turned out some damned good fighters. What I also acheived was cheating my, then, students out of a majority of the system. This was an error on my part. I have had to rectify it, and now teach the whole system. The only real disadvantage I see in Kenpo is impatience.
As far as the rest of the discussion goes here's my input.
CFR, from a beginner's or an outsider's view point, I can see what you are saying. From an insider's view point, I have to disagree. Do I consider you or anyone else wrong, from time to time, yes. Does this negate your right to an opinion, no. The diasadvantages or wholes in Kenpo, do not remain with the system, but with individuals. The grappling issue remains hot. Some schools do it, others do not. To illustrate a point, a couple of months ago, we had a few visiting black belts from another system, when they realized that as stand up fighters, they were not going to best our upper belts, they tried grappling with us. One of their other black belts who is also a regular in our school told them, "I told you guys not to try that here, it wouldn't work with them." The reason being? As a student's knowledge and skills progress, I also bring in ground work. I start it about orange belt when they learn Dance of Death. That technique is the perfect segue into learning how to fall properly, and from there we progress further. I, too, had a serious disdain for forms, even after acheiving my third black. It took a very good instructor to show me the error of my thinking and to change my mind. They are still not my favorite aspect, but I understand much more now. The techniques are not difficult, the difficulty lies in how they are shown and explained. At one point a few years ago, when I started teaching Kenpo in WV, I was not looking to turn out well rounded, complete martial artists. I was looking to turn out people I could bang with. To that end, I focused strictly on fighting and self defense. As a result, I turned out some damned good fighters. What I also acheived was cheating my, then, students out of a majority of the system. This was an error on my part. I have had to rectify it, and now teach the whole system. The only real disadvantage I see in Kenpo is impatience.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I pretty much agree, Seig, and otherwise I guess it's two posts past time to give up on reasonable discussion.
After reading your posts here and on the CanAm I don't think it is the 12 yrs of trainingthat gets you into trouble. I think it is your condescending to anyone that doesn't kiss your ***.
CFR has the right to voice his opinion and he should stand behind it. He doesn't need to be belittled by you. Time in an art is meaningless it is teh time at the art that is important.
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Gee, thanks, Rob. I realize this won't have the slightest effect on your ideas, but I couldn't care less about anybody, "kissing my ***." In the first place, why would anybody bother? In the second, I have to tell you that I'd be revolted if anybody bothered....and in the third, the only reason I mentioned what I consider to be my somewhat meager time in kenpo was because I got asked.
Let's go back. I got annoyed--not that much, but a little-- because I get tired of people announcing after their 3 months (!) in kenpo that it's all just a waste of time. Could I have written more politely in response? Sure. Never claimed to be perfect, and a good thing too. And, so could you write more politely--if you're adopting the position that your greater experience (and from your logs, it would appear that you have almost exactly as much more experience than me as I have over this guy), then why don't you exercise exactly what you're telling me to exercise?
As for the issues involved, well, I basically agree with Seig. An enormous problem in kenpo these days is impatience. Of course, people don't describe it as their impatience. They describe it as "flaws," in kenpo--and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that their description of these flaws always takes exactly the same form: worthless kata, no grappling, too much technical knowledge, takes too long to learn...
There's a literary critic, Stanley Fish, who has taken to saying that college students should leave their opinions at home. I can't say that I completely agree--it's a little too much like telling people to just shaddup, and it would ceertainly make problems if applied to a field like martial arts in which there are so many phonies. But there's a point worth taking in his comment, I think--and it has to do with confusing freedom of speech and belief with knowing what you're talking about.
What I don't know, and perhaps you do, is the extent to which this is particular to kenpo. It strikes me that it's just a replay of the basic criticism that Mr. Parker brought to bear on, "traditional," martial arts, but I don't know. What do you think?
I am sorry to have offended you, Mr. Broad. But I also found your post offensive; I realize that I don't write like a lot of other people on these forums, but well, whatever it is, it ain't what you seem to be thinking it is.
Let's go back. I got annoyed--not that much, but a little-- because I get tired of people announcing after their 3 months (!) in kenpo that it's all just a waste of time. Could I have written more politely in response? Sure. Never claimed to be perfect, and a good thing too. And, so could you write more politely--if you're adopting the position that your greater experience (and from your logs, it would appear that you have almost exactly as much more experience than me as I have over this guy), then why don't you exercise exactly what you're telling me to exercise?
As for the issues involved, well, I basically agree with Seig. An enormous problem in kenpo these days is impatience. Of course, people don't describe it as their impatience. They describe it as "flaws," in kenpo--and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that their description of these flaws always takes exactly the same form: worthless kata, no grappling, too much technical knowledge, takes too long to learn...
There's a literary critic, Stanley Fish, who has taken to saying that college students should leave their opinions at home. I can't say that I completely agree--it's a little too much like telling people to just shaddup, and it would ceertainly make problems if applied to a field like martial arts in which there are so many phonies. But there's a point worth taking in his comment, I think--and it has to do with confusing freedom of speech and belief with knowing what you're talking about.
What I don't know, and perhaps you do, is the extent to which this is particular to kenpo. It strikes me that it's just a replay of the basic criticism that Mr. Parker brought to bear on, "traditional," martial arts, but I don't know. What do you think?
I am sorry to have offended you, Mr. Broad. But I also found your post offensive; I realize that I don't write like a lot of other people on these forums, but well, whatever it is, it ain't what you seem to be thinking it is.
