Disadvantages of Kenpo?

[Rob Broad]

My reply was designed to show what I have been reading on the boards everywhere these days. People jump on very newbie out there for voicing an opinion. The only way they will change their is if they are shown the differnece. We can tell people the stove is hot til we are blue in the face but until they touch it they don't know. The same goes for martial arts, we can tell newbies everythiug but they have to feel it to believe it.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Fair enough, this time, and pretty much the point that I thought Seig was making. I agree with you in principle.

 

[Seig]

Thank you for bringing it back to the realm of the polite.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
An enormous problem in kenpo these days is impatience. Of course, people don't describe it as their impatience. They describe it as "flaws," in kenpo--and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that their description of these flaws always takes exactly the same form: worthless kata, no grappling, too much technical knowledge, takes too long to learn...

I think that the reason that impatience is prevalent is because our art....as with most any other martial art, is filled with novices at best. (NO offense CFR, hear me out) Just as there are more 'privates' in the army than officers. Patience is a learned virtue... I learned it through studying martial arts. Lord knows I didn't have any early-on. That's why it's up to those who've been "at it" longer to explain and instruct, enlighten and be examples. The best way to help a younger martial artist learn patience is by being patient yourself, even with their mistakes, assumptions and presumptuous assertions. They are supposed to do each of these.... gives us a chance to teach and to lead.
Sermon over....

It might be profitable to look into WHY these are such common claims.
Worthless Kata?
I'd chalk this one up to inexperience. I think many people feel this way as a beginner, the benefits aren't obvious to us.....yet.
Thank God for insistant and understanding instructors!

No grappling?
Combination of reasons for this one I think.
#1: It's not a grappling art. Simple. Many of it's principles can be adapted/adopted and used in grappling situations...but in practical application 98% of the base curriculi of Kenpo Karate is a stand-up balistic style...period. No grappling? Wrong, there is grappling and many a fine Kenpoist can grapple.... but don't go to a butcher's looking for dry-wall.

#2: again...lack of experience. Assimilating the concepts and principles of Kenpo is a long cultivation process, adapting them for a grappling situation can be done and is done...but the base curriculum doesn't explicity teach it as such (in Most curriculi). Therefore some interpretation is done. Well, a person doesn't interpret a language (well) until they are fluent in that language. Arts like Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, Chin-Na.... there it's not implicit, it's explicit... no interpretation needed. That's what they do, but don't go to a Judo or Jujutsu school and expect good stand-up balistic striking lessons.....
Do people call "Jujutsu" flawed??? No...they know what it does and don't expect it to do otherwise.
I don't blame the newer guys for this confusion. There's lots of talk about the "Universality of Kenpo". I understand what that implies, I'd bet you do too Robert, but to a new guy? That sounds like there should be EVERYTHING you could want or need in a martial art. It sounds like a blanket art.

I personally think that Kenpo does have Everything "I" need or want....but that's me.

Too much technical knowledge?
Could be, if you want things exceedingly simple. Kenpo has a lot to it, choc-full O' goodness if you ask me. Sure there's lots to learn. That's part of what draws me to it. Does "analysis-peralysis" exist? HE11 Yeah it does. But the "Technical stuff" is a tool, and a tool can be misused to the detriment of the art and the artist. But if used well, it greatly enhances it.
IF it's still an issue for the artist? Let them go do boxing. It's a good way to fight and is very simple by comparison.

Takes too long to learn?
No... it's not an overnight accomplishment. It's not for the dabbler nor the dojo-whore. If you want something that's FAST to learn and appy.... again....boxing. It's rather 2 dimensional, but it's simlicity is it's strength.
Kenpo isn't for everyone, nor should it be. If someone posed that we change to suit everyone.... I'd kick sand in their face. (figuratively) If it's not for you, it's not a shortcoming of the art, it's a reason to move on to the next dojo down the street and find something that IS for you.

Food for thought?
Hope so....
Your Brother
John

 

[Michael Billings]

Great Post.

I myself concur that it does not take decades to learn to defend yourself ... if that is your sole objective.

There is more to Kenpo than just self-defense. Although we are a relatively "modern" Art, ala SGM Parker, or any of the other Hawaiin's who brought their Arts to the mainland, specifically Professor Wally Jay and Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, all were founded, or had their roots in much earlier traditional systems or Arts.

You can learn Krav Maga, BJJ (the basic holds and moves, not a high level of expertise), TKD, etc., in a fraction of the time it takes to become a Black Belt in Kenpo, so why do it? If you can answer that question for yourself, then you know why we continue the training in Kenpo, and why their is more to the system than appears on the surface.

Mastery comes to mind, the challenge to oneself, especially if you are coming from another art as I did, the difference in HOW you learn, not just WHAT you learn, provided the impetus for me to continue my own journey.

These are not reasons for everyone, as I state, they are just my reasons. When it is a year between each brown belt, and about the same time to get to brown ... it begins to look like the old Japanese 3 belt system - White/Brown/Black, only to start over again at 2nd or 3rd Black, when you relize what you don't know exceeds what you do know. It is always a challenge, and I need that.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I can only agree--mostly. However, you might want to go back and look at, "cfr's" first comment. It was not anything like, "Well, I just got started and here's what I don't understand." It was, "Well, I did kenpo for three months and here's what's wrong with the whole system." It was, "Well, I was going to read what people had to say, but I got bored and only read a little over half of it."

I was talking to a friend about this last night--and I guess it's just us, but when we started not so long ago, our basic approach was to shut up and try to learn, on the grounds that our teachers knew something we didn't. Fortunately, we were lucky in our teachers: I can certainly understand that some folks might not be. But there is another level to the often mentioned, "paralysis of analysis:" the kind of analysis that we use as a defense mechanism, to avoid learning.

I suppose, too, that I wrote strongly because I teach quite a lot in and out of kenpo, and I see and I hear what I take to be the same sort of attitude quite a lot. Why do I have to think about this for myself? That takes a lot of time and energy, and I'm busy: just tell me what to say, and I'll say it. Why do I have to do any research? I already know what the truth is, and I'm busy. Why should I check my spelling, fix the grammar, do the notes properly? Isn't that your job, to do this sofr me? Why would I take notes? Just tell me what's going to be on the exam....personally, I blame capitalism. And Dan Quayle.

Anyway, I mostly agree. Will work--as I mentioned--on the patience thingie. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Well, I can only agree--mostly. However, you might want to go back and look at, "cfr's" first comment. It was not anything like, "Well, I just got started and here's what I don't understand." It was, "Well, I did kenpo for three months and here's what's wrong with the whole system." It was, "Well, I was going to read what people had to say, but I got bored and only read a little over half of it."

I understand your frustration, I'm sure it wears on a guy meeting with this sort of attitude on different fronts...
But it doesn't excuse berating and belittling a newbie does it?
Isn't this sort of sentiment and approach expected of the new, the uninformed....the impatient? Berating and venting your accumulated frustration won't change his attitude, except as Mr. Parker said "attitude breeds attitude"...now he may have closed his mind to what you have to offer in the future; and that's a shame.

More is expected of those who lead, and maybe you aren't HIS 'leader', but you have stated that you are a Kenpo instructor... therefore that's what you represent to him and others.

I don't have to tell YOU that "tolerance" is a term that has been bandied about our culture so much as of late that it's all but lost it's meaning in the common vernacular...but alow me please.
Tolerance, to be tolerant....must even be tolerant of intolerance.

MAN....that's a convoluted statement. sorry...

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

OK, now I disagree.

In the first place, "berating," is kinda much. I think the guy can take it, and it's just Internet yak anyway. I'd also suggest, if you don't mind my suggesting, that you might want to look at a couple of the posts I received in return in this context. Including "cfr's" "whatever," in response to my own fairly-mild opposition.

More importantly, it's not as though the guy presently studies kenpo--or was ever going to. From the profile, he attends the ASEAN school in Santa Clarita--looks like a good school, from what I could see, incidentally--and, as his post noted, just stopped in to express an opinion.

I certainly agree (as I've noted more than once here) that, like all of us, I have a lot to learn about teaching. However, I do not think that it is always the function of teachers to be perky and to tell students that they are right.

Try it this way. What do you think his response would be if I got on their website and announced that I'd tried what you do for a coupla months, and here's your problems?

The other thing is this: doesn't it seem to you that--barring complete lunacy on the parts of instructors and schools, of course--that it might behoove the average student to shut off some of their own yadayada and try to learn what's being taught? Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that pretty much all my own limitations in kenpo--of which there are many and many--come from me, and not the art.

One last thing: it strikes me as interesting that I've been reading the same, repeated kvetches about the limitations of kenpo for some time now. At least they've laid off that, "slap art," business...

I think I will shut up, finally, on this matter...having left a beaten dead horse well carpet-bombed...

 

[Michael Billings]

I get tired of people making what I consider, snap judgments, in the real world. It is novel to the internet, and news reporters, how they say things they would never say in person, but are invulnerable, invincible, omnipotent, and omnipresent, when behind a keyboard ... whether they are trolling or not. It is one of my pet peeves.

Yes, I too was in a school that was basically a "Shut up and train" kinda school. But that did not mean I did not have an opinion, and sometimes ended up doing lots of pushups when I expressed my opinion. Oh Well ... that was then, this is now. It is a new medium, and people have at their fingertips infinitly more knowledge or information than I ever did. So they are learning to express thier opinions and ask questions. Sometimes well meaning, sometimes not. I still think the only stupid question is the one you do not ask. So we may get tired of repeating things to newbies, shouldn't that challenge us to come up with new ways of expressing it? Can we, as instructors, learn from this exercise?

Gee, I hope so.

-Michael
"Patience is not passive, it is active concentrated strength." -unknown

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I pretty much agree, Seig, and otherwise I guess it's two posts past time to give up on reasonable discussion.

Robert,
Your not even taking these comments at face value anymore. I've read your antics on the Kenponet these days and beside Clyde threatening to beat eveyone up (Ed Parker JR included), you insist on lambasting everyone for crap they personaly had nothing to do with. Ed Parker gave us tastes of grappling or whatever with the tactics found in the techniques. He never said it was the end all be all, he wanted us to study and find out what works for ourselves. Rather than taking every common sense comment as a personal attack against you and yours, perhaps you should sit back content that you understand what we do not, and let us wallow in our ignorant bliss.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Michael, again, I see your point--but again, please go back and check. Was it a real set of questions that I responded to, or a blanket statement?

By the way, the school I ended up at is anything but, "shut up and train." I was trying to say that that was my attitude, as near as I can recall--mainly because Scott (walked slow, ate burrritos a lot, moved like light when he wanted) and Manny (the Elbow King) and Rick ("what are you doing, handing your dummy a club to swing at you just because you're in line? at least make HIM pick it up!") scared the bejeebers out of me...

As for TOD's....remarks, well, it's odd that you would find the little I've posted there over the past two months on KenpoNet so objectionable, in light of the fact that most of their space these days is taken up by some obsessed weirdo. (OK, some OTHER obsessed weirdo.)

I am, again, sorry that you don't care for the way I write, and equally sorry that you would choose to make personal attacks. Problem is, I don't feel justified in responding in kind.

Please note, I am not Clyde's mom--though I did see an episode of "Angel," the other night? The one set on Lorne's planet? And his mom seemed a lot like what I'd imagine Clyde's mom to be like...

 

[Michael Billings]

I assume your latter comments were to TOD. I have no problem with your writing style or generally what you say ... in fact I usually agree, lately you have just been a bit more on the cutting edge. I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANYONE ELSE'S COMMENTS RE: ROBERT'S writing style or anything else. I understood the context but just want the thread to move on now.

Maybe the Locker Room would be the place to take the controversy that is happening on the other forums and what is slipping over to here, attitude-wise ... if anything. Touch'O'Death, maybe you should start a new thread in the Locker Room and we can bat this one around a while, but we are definitly sliding off topic here and need to get back on. << an attempt at casual redirection (one of the Principles of moderation) >>

-Michael

 

[rmcrobertson]

Whoops, Michael, they certainly were. Apologies. I'd go back and edit, but I don't like changing the record on my own behalf...and I'd rather just drop this whole thing.

 

[pete]

where as far as the American cultural influence on eastern martial arts removes "shaddup and train" from the equation. Anybody coming of age in the '60s and 70s knows better, and hopefully our children have been taught to question everything.

hey, there are plenty of options here in this great land of ours, and you know what, after 3 months there are a lot of questions that require straight answers or a guy is going to walk over to another option... be it another art or another instructor, and get the answers or maybe satisfaction. after 6months, 1year, 18 months: same thing. the thing is, the more time one invests, the more he's got to loose by movin on. sometimes movin on ain't a bad thing. but... you have to understand, this is feudal Japan or the Chen village, or Wudang Mountain... its NYC, LA, Boston, Miami, Des Moines, Altoona, and Hicksville USA.

You see, this thread is the "disadvantages of kenpo", but the ability to question, to tailor, and to do so without criticism of some armchair quarterbacks, well that is one of our greatest advantages.

american kenpo, love it or leave it... just ain't good enough.

 

[Brother John]

I can't believe the dead horses you do beat.
Or that I do
Like trying to communicate to you that much of your good solid ideology is lost in the fog of your rudeness and down the nose stairing.
Shame...
But you know what else Robert, it's not my job to help you see that. I just would rather hear some of the positive insights you seem to have on Kenpo... rather than all of your ad nauseum rebuttals and more consistant complaints of "what really irritates me is..." posts.
I'm still convinced that once you dig through all the ivory tower 'daddy knows best' academia facade you are probably a great person to hold a conversation with...shame we don't get to see that real often. (And before you REstate it, no... this isn't a REAL "conversation"...it's just internet yak. Tell me Robert, next time you complain about 'what bothers you' can we tell you to get over it, it's just 'internet yak'....you can take it?)
1. He complained of Kenpo.
So what. Doesn't make my hammers thunder less or stop my crane from leaping.
2. He did so without a good basis for comparison or enough first hand knowledge to really base it on....
So what. Still doesn't warant rudeness from a senior in our art. Doesn't mean he can't state his case and we help him see where WE believe he's wrong.
3. NOBODY said anything about being either "Perky" or a student's yes-man. Far from it.
Again...doesn't mean you should demean a newbie who's making presumptions.
4. Posing a rhetorical "What would happen if we went to their web-site..." doesn't mean that we have to assume THEY would be rude and beat them to the rhetorical punch cuz what they would have done makes it OK. Neither does the presumption that they would be rude excuse our rudeness, even IF that presumption is correct.

I like you Robert. Stated it before, I'll probably keep beating my head against the wall and still say it later....
doesn't mean you don't infuriate me at times.
Too bad you can't just keep things positive.
You've got lots to offer.


Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

I've said my peace...
lets move on.
I think there actually was a SUBJECT to this thread that had nil to do with me or my Brother Robert or our subjective styles of writing.
If anyone recalls what that subject was, here's a good place to pick it up again.



Your Bro.
John

 

[Seig]

American Kenpo is a process

By Professor Dennis Conatser.


The real issue I see cropping up in my studio and on the internet is the fast food mentality. Everyone wants everything right now, and Super Size it. It just doesn't work that way. Good martial arts are like a fine meal, they take time to prepare and should be savored......

 

[Brother John]

DISADVANTAGES of KENPO:
Check out the last couple-dozen posts (w/a few clear exceptions).....


THERE IT IS
the disadvantage.



Your Brother
John

 

[Rich Parsons]

Everyone,

This is not directed directly at anyone in particular.

I know that many people here read and post all over the internet. I would appriciate it, if everyone would try to limit the discussions and arguements to those discussions and arguements here on Martial Talk. This helps everyone, who was not directly involved in the other conversations, to only know about what is in this conversation at hand.

Martial Talk is for Friendly and Polite discussion (question) and answer of martial arts.

Thank You
:asian:

 

[pete]

The real issue I see cropping up in my studio and on the internet is the fast food mentality - Seig

yep. as i said before "American" kenpo at work! you deserve a break today, so have it your way... or have it somewhere else.
we have to operate within the rules of our culture, for better or worse.