Difference between Jodan Uke, and Jodan Age Uke?

[Mujician]

Pretty straight forward question - can anyone tell me the difference between these two blocks, or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Pretty straight forward question - can anyone tell me the difference between these two blocks, or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?

Might not be as straightforward as you think. Every style of Japanese / Okinawan karate uses similar words but sometimes use them in a different manner.

Personally, I do not know the term 'jodan age uke'. We use the term 'jodan uke' but even then, the way we do an upper body block is very different than the way others who use the same term do it. We also do a slightly different upper body block that we call jodan tegata uke.

For me, 'jodan' means 'upper body / head' and 'uke' means 'to receive'. 'Tegata' means open hand (for us).

From my interaction with other schools of karate, they mean different things than we do when they call an exercise 'jodan uke' and they apply it with a different emphasis.

Sorry to make a seemingly simple topic difficult!

 

[Mujician]

Age (pron: AG-ay) means rising.

 

[Sojobo]

Jodan uke - is more or less a generic term for any block / parry that is done at head height.

Jodan age uke - means upper rising block so refers to a head block the travels upwards to parry (compared to a block that parries an attack sideways).

Styles and groups tend to use variants in terminology.

What most Wado groups refer to as a Jodan uke - Shotokan folk would describe as Jodan age uke - although there are subtle differences between the two.

 

[Paul_D]

or are they pretty much interchangeable names for the same block?

They are the interchangeable names for the same technique, but it's not a block.

Jodan age uke - means upper rising block

Uke doesn't mean block.

 

[Hyoho]

The verb Ukeru is usually used as: to receive or catch. The verb ageru (e as in pet) is to lift or raise. Jodan as mentioned is higher or above. A block is not a parry. Different words again such as uke barai.

 

[Sojobo]

Ah,... That's made things a lot clearer!

 

[Mujician]

So, could someone tell me the difference between a block and a parry?

 

[Sojobo]

I would say that a block is something that literally stops a technique in its tracks – effectively acting a crash barrier.

A parry on the other hand is more of a redirection of force.

I try not to get too hung up on the use of words like ‘block’ and ‘parry’ and how they translate between Japanese and English - I see them as nothing more than colloquialisms.

In the end, a technique is what it is.

 

[Hyoho]

I would say that a block is something that literally stops a technique in its tracks – effectively acting a crash barrier.

A parry on the other hand is more of a redirection of force.

I try not to get too hung up on the use of words like ‘block’ and ‘parry’ and how they translate between Japanese and English - I see them as nothing more than colloquialisms.

In the end, a technique is what it is.

The two words become very important if you use a weapon especially a sword. Again in Japanese they are different The verb harau-to ward off or drive away is used. We have terminology such as ukebarai (catch and drive off). The 'h' changes to a 'b' as its within a word. For example hashi would become Ishibashi as in Stonebridge.

Transposed to become Bridgestone Tyres by the owner Ishibashi Sojiro.

I often have the similar conversatation of the Japanese word Kiru (to cut). There is little we cut with a sword that is not extremly defined such as specific arteries. So in english the correct usage is better if we say 'slice'.

 

[Sojobo]

I often have the similar conversatation of the Japanese word Kiru (to cut). There is little we cut with a sword that is not extremly defined such as specific arteries. So in english the correct usage is better if we say 'slice'.

Indeed, I also practice sword and my instructors will call it a 'cut' when really that's the wrong way to describe it.

Here in the UK at least, the use of the phrase 'block' in karate is almost certainly a legacy of the early Japanese instructors using the word (probably because if it's visual simplicity).

Train with the likes of Ohgami sensei today and he still uses the term 'block' as a label for the movement.

 

[Sojobo]

On the subject of blocks in karate (or any other martial art for that matter)...

Not sure whether I have posted this here before (apologies if I have), but the following is an excerpt from a Chinese manuscript called 'Rikuto' (c. 11th century BC)

来たれば即ち迎え、去れば即ち送り、
対すれば即ち和す。
五五の十
二八の十
一九の十
是を以て和すべし。
虚実を察し、陰伏を知り、
大は方処を絶ち、細は微塵に入る。
殺活機にあり、変化時に応ず。
事に臨んで心を動ずること莫(なかれ)や。

If it comes, then meet it, if it leaves, then send it away.
If it resists, than harmonize it.
5 and 5 are 10.
2 and 8 are 10.
1 and 9 are 10.
You should harmonize like this.
Intuit true and false, know what is hidden,
The large suppresses all, the small enters the microscopic.
There are chances for life and death, without reacting to changes.
Approach things without moving your heart (without being disturbed)

 

[Hyoho]

But kanji has onyomi and kunyomi. There are both Confucianism and Buddhist derivation to meanings.

 

[punisher73]

In karate, I have not come across a separate term for "parry" in many styles. Although, I believe that "barai" in some styles is used for that. Even though most still translate "godan barai" as "lower block".

Based on the concept of "uke" meaning "to receive" and not "to block". A block and parry are both in the concept of receiving. In fact, the chambering of blocks and crossing of the hands as you execute the block with one hand as you re-chamber the other hand as taught in many styles kihon is specifically done that way to teach the parrying aspects of the "blocking" motion. Mawashi Uke is another movement found in many, if not most, karate styles and teaches all of the various parries within it's motions to use parts of the circle as needed to redirect the incoming punch before counterattacking.

As to other uses of the motion, "yes" the jodan uke can be used to "block" and incoming punch or overhand type attack. It can also be used for many other applications as well. Always remember that originally the motions of a kata did not have a name or label to it. So, that jodan uke, could be a rising forearm strike into the throat or it could be used to attack into an overhand right punch. When books started to be published showing karate techniques, they had to put a label on the pictures as to what the motion was. At this point, because of the label those techniques became "frozen" into what their application was supposed to be.

 

[Paul_D]

A block and parry are both in the concept of receiving.

Block s the concept of stopping something, which is pretty much the opposite of receiving.

 

[Hyoho]

The Japanese word ukeru can also mean to receive something (a thing) but I would not think that applied in this context. It can also mean to catch a ball or stop a blow. The application of what I do in parrying is more or less to ward off an attack as in uke barai. This come from the the verb harau meaning to brush off or sweep away.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Block s the concept of stopping something, which is pretty much the opposite of receiving.

My understanding of "uke" is that it refers to being on the receiving end, rather than the concept of accepting. So, "ukemi waza" is the group of techniques used when receiving a technique (in many arts, this is primarily falls and rolls). If (and that's a big "if") that's an accurate usage, then anything used on the receiving end could use the term "uke" - including blocks.

 

[Hyoho]

Yes. That meaning of uke would be as in submissive. To have, take or receive. Ukemi translates as defensive, passive. To be on the defense but lose initiative.

 

[Paul_D]

My understanding of "uke" is that it refers to being on the receiving end, rather than the concept of accepting. So, "ukemi waza" is the group of techniques used when receiving a technique (in many arts, this is primarily falls and rolls). If (and that's a big "if") that's an accurate usage, then anything used on the receiving end could use the term "uke" - including blocks.

But then you haven't received anything as you've stopped it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But then you haven't received anything as you've stopped it.

I think it's more a positional reference than a conceptual one. You're either giving the punch or receiving it. The person blocking is the receiver.