Desperate Falcons - which way?

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab (hands palm down directly in front of you)? This is a 3rd brown technique, have your students not developed any degree of situational awareness at this point? Should this idea not be built into the technique or do we just assume that the student is still so unaware that they will have to begin from a natural stance?

In your expert opinion, what is the purpose of a grab or hug? Are these not merely precursors to further action? Hell don't we teach our students to grab a hold of their opponent and to pull them off balance in order to punch them in B1a and Darting Mace? Do we not grab our opponents with the intent to spin them around and throw them into some environmental object in Taming the mace or wrangle them down into an oncoming knee in backbreaker? So what exactly is the attackers intent in Desperate Falcons? How does this attack differ from oh say..... Begging Hands? Does it really differ enough to warrant a completely different technique?

I understand and even agree with, at least to some extent, Mr. C's explanation of the ideal phase.



Actually, I'm beginning to believe that Mr. Parker was indeed trying to create a system that he could easily market and sell (i.e. commercial kenpo). Not necessarily one that he would use himself, as many people have mentioned he had his own way of doing things. Otherwise why would there be a need for things like category completion, etc.? This is about the only reason I can come up with as to why certain things exist within the EPAK curriculum.

Yes, there is enough of a difference in the nature of the attack from Begging Hands to Desperate Falcons to warrant a different technique, you just don't have the experience to tell the difference. Why are you bothering to do Kenpo if you don't believe it? Doesn't make sense to study an art you deem commercial does it? Maybe you should try TKD or TSD. Some people are just silly.

Dark Lord

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Yes, there is enough of a difference in the nature of the attack from Begging Hands to Desperate Falcons to warrant a different technique, you just don't have the experience to tell the difference.

Really??? And just what might that difference be?

Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab

You kind of ignored this? Also, in your opinion, what is the progression of hostility from a double wrist grab? Finally, isn't the need for this SPECIFIC technique overcome by the least bit of situational awareness (i.e. hands up,"hey buddy I don't want to fight")???

Why are you bothering to do Kenpo if you don't believe it? Doesn't make sense to study an art you deem commercial does it?

I began my MA training in the EPAK curriculum, but have sense moved on to another curriculum. It is a derivative that bears similiarities to EPAK, but in many aspects the two are as different as night and day.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Really??? And just what might that difference be?



You kind of ignored this? Also, in your opinion, what is the progression of hostility from a double wrist grab? Finally, isn't the need for this SPECIFIC technique overcome by the least bit of situational awareness (i.e. hands up,"hey buddy I don't want to fight")???



I began my MA training in the EPAK curriculum, but have sense moved on to another curriculum. It is a derivative that bears similiarities to EPAK, but in many aspects the two are as different as night and day.

I may or may not use the hands up, I may not have time nor inclination to do so. My best oppurtunity for strikes could be with my legs, my hands at my side. Perceptual speed is the key for any technique, whether they're grabbing you or striking at you. Visual and Physical perceptional skills are needed to internalize the art and unfortunately, most do not have or teach this aspect.

I ignored alot of your post because it was, well, in a word, stupid.

You began in the EPAK curriculum but now do one that bears similarities to it. What exactly are you doing then if not Kenpo? Why would you post here, specifically on the EPAK curriculum, if you're no long doing it? Do you not have a specific board for your curriculum here http://www.akki.com/indexs/indexpage.htm ?


BTW, if you're not doing EPAK, don't lecture me, or any others for that matter, on how to do it, I AM doing it, and I understand it.


Dark Lord

 

[michaeledward]

Wow ... this has degraded fast. Makes me sorry I started the post.

Let me say this ... I learned this technique, perhaps, 6 months ago. In an advanced class, recently, we discussed this technique and came up with a couple of things that didn't make sense. We discussed alterations to address those items but never really resolved the question. By posting here, I wanted to get others opinions about the technique to help my understanding of it. I really like the way GoldenDragon posted the technique, it explains several of the weak points in the way I run the technique, but it also has a move or two that I think is less effective. Oh, well. As I said, I don't think we will find a consensous.

As to the type of Attack ... I don't know if it is realistic, or not. And I don't think it really matters. I am learning a series of motions that, if needed, would be able to be applied in an act of self-defense. I could very easily see a situation where I could run a portion of this technique ... follow along, if you will.

Someone throws a right hook punch, hitting me in the jaw, following through, so now I am on the outside of his right-arm and turned a bit to 3 o'clock ... couldn't I start the technique from the that position .... with the left back fist to the face? And maybe I would only run the technique as far as the kidney strike.

Sure, if I was any good at this Martial Arts stuff, I wouldn't have been hit at all, or hell, I probably would have developed enough situational awareness to get the hell out of dodge before the shooting started ... but ... if I wasn't that quick on the uptake, by studying EPAK, I will have learned some of the ways I can move my body to defend myself, and inflict pain on an aggressor, and hopefully, live to brag about it another day. And then, hopefully, I will learn enough to prevent the next attack another day.

Thanks to all for their input - Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?

Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?

-Michael

 

[jeffkyle]

... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?

Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?

-Michael

I second that! Well Said. Also in my experience i have had women grab both of my wrists like that (in a playful manner not serious one). It surprises the heck out of them when next thing they know they are tied up and have been forced to let go of me.
It is all in fun though.

Speak for yourself on the Burly part Mr. Billings.

 

[dcence]

Also in my experience i have had women grab both of my wrists like that (in a playful manner not serious one). It surprises the heck out of them when next thing they know they are tied up and have been forced to let go of me.
It is all in fun though.

I would clap behind my back and pucker if this happened to me -- assuming she is good looking... at least before I got married....

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?

Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?

-Michael

This one has great potential in the force.

Dark Lord

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Billings
Big guys like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?

Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?

When did we begin to qualify self-defense techniques based on sex (no... not the verb, the noun :uhyeah: )?

I have no doubt that the initial move would release the grip, that was not in question. However, what was in question was the probability that anyone would ever be grabbed in this manner. Also, If anyone were ever to be grabbed in this fashion, what would be the attackers likely intent (i.e. reason for performing a double wrist grab, what does this accomplish) as well as the likely progression of events after this particular grab. We all know that certain holds or grabs are precursors to more aggressive action? So what is the progression?

Clyde.... excuse me "annonypuss", as you tend to call eveyone else who posts under pseudonyms, stated that my inquiries were stupid. That a possible reason his hands may be at his side.... well why don't I just let you hear it from him.

I may not have time nor inclination to do so. My best oppurtunity for strikes could be with my legs, my hands at my side.

If this is the case, then what is the point of this technique? Does the tech Begging Hands not lead off with a kick hands chambered at the side from breaking the hold which I might add is another two handed wrist grab.

My whole point is that as the student trains and hopefully becomes smarter they will respond differently then they would have at a previous level. So what is the purpose of treating the beginning of each and every technique the same as if the students were still responding to their environments as white or yellow belts? Why wouldn't their hands be up? Why wouldn't they be in a neutral bow? Shouldn't each belt level build not only on the mechanics but the strategies of the level that preceeded it?

Why doesn't it go like this,"When you are a purple belt you may get grabbed like this so you do technique x, but you should be looking for this. However, by putting your hands up you may expose yourself to this, so you will need to understand how to defend against y. Later on z may come into play."
This becomes the game you play for the situation you find yourself in.

BTW, if you're not doing EPAK, don't lecture me, or any others for that matter, on how to do it, I AM doing it, and I understand it.

I'm sorry that you feel as if I'm lecturing you Clyde this started out as a farely enjoyable discussion. Don't forget that you were the one who started in with the negative posting. I actually appreciated Mr. Conatser's reply and had intended to continue discussing the merits of the ideal phase, but instead you came in hair flying because someone "ATTACKED" your curriculum. All I did was ask a few questions regarding the reasons that a 3rd brown student would need another technique beginning from a natural stance two handed wrist grab. Geez, I mean come on aren't you like a 6th degree blackbelt? I thought you might know something about the nature of the attack? You said you did, it's the only reason I asked.

You obviously feel that I shouldn't post on EPAK because I don't "do it" anymore. My experience with EPAK may be limited to just a couple of years, but you still feel compelled to post on PMAK ( I kinda like this little abbreviation) and you have almost no experience in this system. This seems to be just another hypocritical statement.

 

[Goldendragon7]

I actually appreciated Mr. Conatser's reply.

thanks. :asian: