Desperate Falcons - which way?

[michaeledward]

OK.... so we were working on Desperate Falcons and I have a question about which way we turn the body. Here is the basic breakdown of the technique as it was taught to me.

1.Front two hand wrist grab.
2.Lock attackers hands together by bringing right hand under left hand.
3.Step forward into a left neutral bow, as you pull attacker toward your right (hands still locked).
4.Double strike - Left backfist to the face / Right fist to mid-section
5.Grab attackers right shoulder with left hand while driving an uppercut to chin.
6.Follow upper cut with an upward elbow and then an inward elbow (driving attacker down and to his right)
7.Hammerfist strike to the attackers kidney as you move to a rear bow stance.
8.Rear - Crossover and spread the attackers left leg.
9. Knee the inside of the attackers right thigh and move out.

The question comes in step 6 above:
If I use an inward right elbow, driving the attacker over and to his right, he is now on my center line. One of our instructors suggested pushing the attacker to his left with the hand holding the attackers right shoulder, opening the kidney shot directly infront of me, eliminating the rear bow and the rear crossover. The body position is a bit more difficult to complete the inner thigh strike, but I keep my centerline closed off a bit more.

So, while not looking for a concensous, how do you work through this technique?

Thanks, - Mike

 

[Goldendragon7]

OK.... so we were working on Desperate Falcons and I have a question about which way we turn the body. Here is the basic breakdown of the technique as it was taught to me.

1.Front two hand wrist grab.
2.Lock attackers hands together by bringing right hand under left hand.
3.Step forward into a left neutral bow, as you pull attacker toward your right (hands still locked).
4.Double strike - Left backfist to the face / Right fist to mid-section
5.Grab attackers right shoulder with left hand while driving an uppercut to chin.
6.Follow upper cut with an upward elbow and then an inward elbow (driving attacker down and to his right)
7.Hammerfist strike to the attackers kidney as you move to a rear bow stance.
8.Rear - Crossover and spread the attackers left leg.
9. Knee the inside of the attackers right thigh and move out.

The question comes in step 6 above:
If I use an inward right elbow, driving the attacker over and to his right, he is now on my center line. One of our instructors suggested pushing the attacker to his left with the hand holding the attackers right shoulder, opening the kidney shot directly infront of me, eliminating the rear bow and the rear crossover. The body position is a bit more difficult to complete the inner thigh strike, but I keep my centerline closed off a bit more.

So, while not looking for a concensous, how do you work through this technique?

Thanks, - Mike

Here is how we do it.............

DESPERATE FALCONS (Front - Two Hand Direct Grabs To Both Wrists)

1. Standing naturally, step forward with your left foot into a left neutral bow (facing 12 o'clock). As you step forward circle both of your arms clockwise having them travel under, around, and over your opponent's right wrist. This explosive action should continue diagonally and down toward your right hip to loosen or release your opponent's grasps, bring his arms and head down, and cancel your opponent's height and width zones.

2. Immediately pivot into a left forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). Without totally disengaging from your opponent's arms execute a left outward back knuckle strike to your opponent's face. Simultaneously deliver a right thrusting vertical punch to his right ribcage. The action of both strikes is accomplished by needling an open-ended triangle along your opponent's right arm as they travel to their targets. (This should force your opponent back.)

3. Without hesitation step forward into a right 45 degree cat stance toward 12 o'clock and deliver a right vertical or diagonal back knuckle strike to your opponent's right temple. With this action have your left hand check and press down against your opponent's right arm. (This should cause intense pain.)

4. Without loss of forward momentum, step forward with your right foot into a right neutral bow (facing 12 o'clock). Your right leg should hug the inside of your opponent's right leg. While stepping forward execute a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's face. Your left hand continues to check and press down against your opponent's right arm. (Your elbow strike should drive your opponent's head back.)

5. Pivot into a right reverse wide kneel to buckle the inside of your opponent's right leg. While pivoting, deliver a right downward diagonal hammerfist to your opponent's right kidney. During these actions your left hand continues to press your opponent's right arm down and across his body. (The buckle should force your opponent's right knee out and help to expose his kidney. The kidney strike should cause your opponent to drop toward the ground.)

6. Execute a left rear crossover toward 1:30, and without loss of momentum plant your right leg into a right reverse bow in sync with a universal body check to buckle the inside of your opponent's left leg. (This should force your opponent's left leg to spread.)

7. Execute a right knee strike to the inside of your opponent's right thigh. The path of travel of your right knee strike and body is toward 7:30.

8. From the Point of Contact of your right knee strike, execute a right front crossover, and cover out twice toward 7:30.


:asian:

 

[pete]

pretty much the same as GD7, except we circle the attackers right wrist clockwise and strike it againt his own left wrist, thereby sandwiching the attackers wrists between our own... from that point, the attacker should release and we put more emphysis on controlling him with an arm bar, by grasping his right forearm with your left hand and simultaneously pulling the fingers of his right hand back with your left as you apply pressure under his right elbow with your left arm. his left hand is still trapped in the sandwich.

from there you'd pick up from #2's left backfist/right vertical punch...

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Uhhhh..... I have a question. I'm not trying to badmouth the technique as I think it has some good sequences in it, but when was the last time you ever saw someone grab someone else by the wrists like this (outside of the kenpo school). I have seen people people do a two handed wrist grab against an attacker in a boxing position (hands up in front of their face, not hands palm down out in front). Not that this is that much more common, but I've at least seen the attack happen.

In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left. This is essentially a Gripping talon like manuever just on the other side. However, now as you step through you can grab your opponents right arm and pull to your hip while performing a left hook punch or, more directly, a left backknuckle depending on whether you choose to orbit your left arm or track along your opponents. Next you would punch with the right arm and then begin moving through your cat and on into your RNB the strikes somewhat resemble Gathering clouds, except the backknuckle is going to the face. From here on out you could finish off the same as you normally would or you could change it up a little.

I personally have never liked all the twist stances and crossovers when you are on the inside of an opponent. I would go with just a simple leg sweep or knee to the inner thigh. If you feel you need more you could easily do a knife edge kick to the knee of the other leg without having to go through all those transitions. Just seems like alot of unnecessary footwork.

 

[kenpo_cory]

In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left.

That is exactly how we start this tech as I was shown it. After this initial move we just rotate to a forward bow with a left back knuckle to the face and right vertical punch to the chest. We then step through to a right neutral bow while executing a right knee to the inside of their right thigh and plant with a right inward elbow to the face. Then right back knuckle, right inward eyehook and right scoop kick to the groin. This is of course a very brief explanation of how we do this technique.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Uhhhh..... I have a question. I'm not trying to badmouth the technique as I think it has some good sequences in it, but when was the last time you ever saw someone grab someone else by the wrists like this (outside of the kenpo school). I have seen people people do a two handed wrist grab against an attacker in a boxing position (hands up in front of their face, not hands palm down out in front). Not that this is that much more common, but I've at least seen the attack happen.

In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left. This is essentially a Gripping talon like manuever just on the other side. However, now as you step through you can grab your opponents right arm and pull to your hip while performing a left hook punch or, more directly, a left backknuckle depending on whether you choose to orbit your left arm or track along your opponents. Next you would punch with the right arm and then begin moving through your cat and on into your RNB the strikes somewhat resemble Gathering clouds, except the backknuckle is going to the face. From here on out you could finish off the same as you normally would or you could change it up a little.

I personally have never liked all the twist stances and crossovers when you are on the inside of an opponent. I would go with just a simple leg sweep or knee to the inner thigh. If you feel you need more you could easily do a knife edge kick to the knee of the other leg without having to go through all those transitions. Just seems like alot of unnecessary footwork.

An understandable question for sure, Kenpo Yahoo!

Allow me to give my perspective on your thoughts. This or any of our techniques within our American Kenpo Curriculums (any of them), are merely exemplary descriptions which can and do have numerous possible variations (variable expansions) that will work. Each must be evaluated on the numerous lessons or skills that can be achieved through study of such movements. While all have "self defense" overcoats...... there is much more to learn from their practice and training.

We have 3 "Phases" ideal ~ what if ~ and formulation.

In the "Ideal" phase some of the objectives are to instruct and illustrate the basic elements of self defense: teach coordination, introduce targets, teach formation of natural weapons, learn various positions and their uses, how to maneuver your body (or any portion arms, legs, body), become aware of range, become acquainted with strategies, consider environmental issues, and conditioning, all through these sequential series.

Then, in the "What If" phase, we option the manure out of them and try to squeeze every drop of interpretation that can be a possibility without compromising the logic or integrity of the move. Bottom line is ~ there are many possibilities to get out of a particular hold or different ways of defending oneself in any of the curriculums techniques.

As Instructors and teachers we must realize however that there must be an organized method to our madness or a {{PROCESS}} to follow in which to introduce, drill, improve, expand, which finally ends with the internalization of those <beginning ideas> into extemporaneous action when triggered.

Advanced Individuals debate less on the specific techniques as a whole, but rather they examine the principles, merits or possible differing examples of reaching the same outcome with greater ease.

So, in conclusion, there could be numerous possibilities to any given scenario that all could be emeritus depending on how it fits into the rest of the syllabus it is positioned in.


:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

An understandable question for sure, Kenpo Yahoo!

Allow me to give my perspective on your thoughts. This or any of our techniques within our American Kenpo Curriculums (any of them), are merely exemplary descriptions which can and do have numerous possible variations (variable expansions) that will work. Each must be evaluated on the numerous lessons or skills that can be achieved through study of such movements. While all have "self defense" overcoats...... there is much more to learn from their practice and training.

We have 3 "Phases" ideal ~ what if ~ and formulation.

In the "Ideal" phase some of the objectives are to instruct and illustrate the basic elements of self defense: teach coordination, introduce targets, teach formation of natural weapons, learn various positions and their uses, how to maneuver your body (or any portion arms, legs, body), become aware of range, become acquainted with strategies, consider environmental issues, and conditioning, all through these sequential series.

Then, in the "What If" phase, we option the manure out of them and try to squeeze every drop of interpretation that can be a possibility without compromising the logic or integrity of the move. Bottom line is ~ there are many possibilities to get out of a particular hold or different ways of defending oneself in any of the curriculums techniques.

As Instructors and teachers we must realize however that there must be an organized method to our madness or a {{PROCESS}} to follow in which to introduce, drill, improve, expand, which finally ends with the internalization of those <beginning ideas> into extemporaneous action when triggered.

Advanced Individuals debate less on the specific techniques as a whole, but rather they examine the principles, merits or possible differing examples of reaching the same outcome with greater ease.

So, in conclusion, there could be numerous possibilities to any given scenario that all could be emeritus depending on how it fits into the rest of the syllabus it is positioned in.


:asian:

The force is strong with this one as well. I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. The idea of any technique is to engrain the motion so it becomes a natural movement, a trained response to given stimuli. Can everyone say Pavlov?http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1904/pavlov.jpg

Experiments carried out by Pavlov and his pupils showed that conditioned reflexes originate in the cerebral cortex, which acts as the «prime distributor and organizer of all activity of the organism» and which is responsible for the very delicate equilibrium of an animal with its environment. In 1905 it was established that any external agent could, by coinciding in time with an ordinary reflex, become the conditioned signal for the formation of a new conditioned reflex. In connection with the discovery of this general postulate Pavlov proceeded to investigate «artificial conditioned reflexes». Research in Pavlov's laboratories over a number of years revealed for the first time the basic laws governing the functioning of the cortex of the great hemispheres. Many physiologists were drawn to the problem of developing Pavlov's basic laws governing the activity of the cerebrum. As a result of all this research there emerged an integrated Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity.

Dark Lord

 

[kenpo_cory]

The force is strong with this one as well. I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. The idea of any technique is to engrain the motion so it becomes a natural movement, a trained response to given stimuli. Can everyone say Pavlov?http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1904/pavlov.jpg

Experiments carried out by Pavlov and his pupils showed that conditioned reflexes originate in the cerebral cortex, which acts as the «prime distributor and organizer of all activity of the organism» and which is responsible for the very delicate equilibrium of an animal with its environment. In 1905 it was established that any external agent could, by coinciding in time with an ordinary reflex, become the conditioned signal for the formation of a new conditioned reflex. In connection with the discovery of this general postulate Pavlov proceeded to investigate «artificial conditioned reflexes». Research in Pavlov's laboratories over a number of years revealed for the first time the basic laws governing the functioning of the cortex of the great hemispheres. Many physiologists were drawn to the problem of developing Pavlov's basic laws governing the activity of the cerebrum. As a result of all this research there emerged an integrated Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity.

Dark Lord

Was that the guy who experimented with the salivating dog?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Was that the guy who experimented with the salivating dog?

http://www.nobel.se/medicine/educational/pavlov/

Dark Lord

 

[Goldendragon7]

The force is strong with this one as well.

I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. ed Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity.
Dark Lord

:jedi1: I feel a great disturbance in the Force!!!!

Not to beat a :deadhorse but the techniques that are listed in the Insights of the 80's are no more valid than the 32 system of the '60's & or the so called 16 system that was being tailored for the 90's and beyond.

The Concepts ~ Theories ~ and Principles had no definite insert positions. The were to be taught of course, but there were no specific outlines as to what belt they should be required on only suggestions which could be adjusted for the student or studio. :asian:

If you have any documentation to the contrary I would like to see it. So I can update my files that Mr. Parker gave me.

:uhyeah: :asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I've actually read quite a bit about the Pavlov response, and I am aware of the three "phases" of kenpo (those being ideal, what if, and formulation). However, if we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?

Shouldn't the Ideal phase of our techniques represent the most probable scenarios that we will face and all other scenarios are left to the later phases of study? I realize that it is impossible to account for all possible attacks, as the combinations become endless. However, there are a number of techniques that I don't believe could ever be pulled off in the Ideal phase either because no one in their right mind would ever attack you in that manner, or because the techniques don't take into account the possible responses of your opponent to your numerous strikes. As for the unlikely attacks, sure it's as simple as slightly adjusting a few angles or strikes to compensate, but why not do this to begin with? Instead we spend years developing a "Pavlovian" response towards a stimuli that most people will only experience within the confines of their studio or learning environment. Yet we spend less time focusing on the more likely possibilities, thus developing a weaker sensitivity to the prescribed stimuli.

Just some thoughts. What are yours?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I've actually read quite a bit about the Pavlov response, and I am aware of the three "phases" of kenpo (those being ideal, what if, and formulation). However, if we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?

Shouldn't the Ideal phase of our techniques represent the most probable scenarios that we will face and all other scenarios are left to the later phases of study? I realize that it is impossible to account for all possible attacks, as the combinations become endless. However, there are a number of techniques that I don't believe could ever be pulled off in the Ideal phase either because no one in their right mind would ever attack you in that manner, or because the techniques don't take into account the possible responses of your opponent to your numerous strikes. As for the unlikely attacks, sure it's as simple as slightly adjusting a few angles or strikes to compensate, but why not do this to begin with? Instead we spend years developing a "Pavlovian" response towards a stimuli that most people will only experience within the confines of their studio or learning environment. Yet we spend less time focusing on the more likely possibilities, thus developing a weaker sensitivity to the prescribed stimuli.

Just some thoughts. What are yours?

No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh? So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible. In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?



Dark Lord

 

[Blindside]

No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh? So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible. In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it? Dark Lord

Do you know you come off as combative and rude? I can think of two reasons why these techniques would be included but not necessarily be "street" techniques

1) artifact from jujitsu techniques
2) category completion for grabs

There are a number of other techniques that also raise flags as not being probable attacks that are included in the system, their inclusion may be for similar reasons.

Lamont

 

[Goldendragon7]

If we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?

I guess a clearer definition of just what the "Ideal" means could be in order. I do/have heard and realize that many apply different meanings which certainly changes the focus of the term. If one determines and defines a particular self defense technique as "the ultimate scenario" response, or reaction for any given attack, then many of the traditional technique sequences could come under widespread scrutiny.

However, if the "ideal phase" of the curriculum is viewed as a training platform to introduce the basics of our self defense system to an individual (that in many cases has "zero" knowledge at this point) it can be a very useful stage or "phase" which like in the lower levels of grade school you introduce various scenarios to the students that they {at that stage of understanding} they can comprehend until such a time is that they can utilize much more sophisticated means. After all, we practice writing and mathematics to develop skills thru examples or problems to learn possibilities that will in some fashion later in life be useful to us yet, the exact examples taught may NEVER be experienced.... i.e., "Mary had 10 apples, she gave 7 to Jim and 2 to Bill, however, Jim gave 3 back to Mary, and ate 1. How many apples does Mary now have? Now will this actually happen.... it could but probably not.... but we do learn thru the example studied. I think you get my point. There is much more to learn from the Ideal phase other than ONLY the exact self defense application example.

Shouldn't the Ideal phase of our techniques represent the most probable scenarios that we will face and all other scenarios are left to the later phases of study?

Not necessarily

I realize that it is impossible to account for all possible attacks, as the combinations become endless. However, there are a number of techniques that I don't believe could ever be pulled off in the Ideal phase either because no one in their right mind would ever attack you in that manner, or because the techniques don't take into account the possible responses of your opponent to your numerous strikes.

Much like forms...... everything can be pulled off in the ideal phase, serendipity. However, the sun, moon, and planets must all be in proper alignment. It is, after all, our IDEAL PHASE, in which WE have determined and are in control of all aspects of said scenario and presume that all happens exactly as planned (which we All (or almost all) realize is not totally reality!). This in reality is only meant for example, study, coordination and practice to that when we need to draw upon our skills in an actual encounter we are prepared to react instinctively and with the necessary tools needed.

As for the unlikely attacks, sure it's as simple as slightly adjusting a few angles or strikes to compensate, but why not do this to begin with?

Why is there always time to do it OVER when there is NEVER time to do it right.. :asian: I agree!!!! And tell me ...... just what specific scenarios would you have us start with "TO BEGIN WITH" so as to be able to "slightly adjust or compensate for"? If you have a better curriculum ...... share it ....... I'd love to evaluate your works.

Instead we spend years developing a "Pavlovian" response towards a stimuli that most people will only experience within the confines of their studio or learning environment. Yet we spend less time focusing on the more likely possibilities, thus developing a weaker sensitivity to the prescribed stimuli.

Well, I think you will receive a lot of debate here as to whether the curriculum is truly limited (as you say) to the "confines of their studio or learning environment". I for one, have experienced on numerous occasions the reality of many of our techniques.... but that's just me {I realize}, however, I'm sure that others will say the same.

If you would be so kind..... Exactly What Are The More Likely Possibilities that you speak of that we all should focus MORE of our attention on..... Help us out... do you have a list?. This would be most helpful to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Excellent post Kenpo Yahoo... you are a thinker! Thanks for the exchange.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh? So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible. In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?
Dark Lord

Clyde, I have to agree with you here on this one. But I think I explained in the above post, we find many values in the techniques not just the surface or superficial meaning or execution of any of the material that Mr. Parker developed. He was way to intelligent to just put our BS for us...... I concur.

Hope you are doing fine!

%-}

 

[Goldendragon7]

No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh? So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible. In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?
Dark Lord

Do you know you come off as combative and rude? Lamont

Lamont, I think you misunderstood what the Dark Kenpo Lord was saying.

:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Do you know you come off as combative and rude? I can think of two reasons why these techniques would be included but not necessarily be "street" techniques

1) artifact from jujitsu techniques
2) category completion for grabs

There are a number of other techniques that also raise flags as not being probable attacks that are included in the system, their inclusion may be for similar reasons.

Lamont

Of course I'm combative and rude, I am the Dark Kenpo Lord.

I'm curious, which techniques would you say raise flags as not being probable attacks? Please be complete with an explanation for each.

Dark Lord

 

[Blindside]

Of course I'm combative and rude, I am the Dark Kenpo Lord.

I'm curious, which techniques would you say raise flags as not being probable attacks? Please be complete with an explanation for each.

Dark Lord

To name one, Twisted Twig.

I suspect that it is improbable that I will be attacked by a rabid jujitsuka in the near future, Are small joint manipulations common street attacks in your area? Perhaps you are faced with a group of Cobra Kai aikidoka running unchecked through the streets.

Please note that I am not skeptical about the validity of the technique or even its place in AK curriculum. Improbable techniques can teach fine examples of motion, just that there are some techniques that are less likely and others that are more likely.

Lamont

PS: If this is Clyde O'Briant, why are you anonymous in this board after ranting about "anonypussies" on other boards? If this is not the same Clyde, then please ignore this.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

To name one, Twisted Twig.

I suspect that it is improbable that I will be attacked by a rabid jujitsuka in the near future, Are small joint manipulations common street attacks in your area? Perhaps you are faced with a group of Cobra Kai aikidoka running unchecked through the streets.

Lamont

This all depends on the nature of the attack. When you dummy for this technique, do you stand there and give the attacker your arm? Is this a handshake you missed Gift of Destruction or a wrist grab you missed Crossing Talon on? You see, it's not the attack, it's the nature of the attack, and the circumstances leading up to it that put you in the probable position for the techniques, you just haven't seen them applied yet. I would venture to say very few people are going to give their head and neck to an opponent to allow them to do Locking Horns either but there the technique is in Orange.

Dark Lord

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

DKL
You see, it's not the attack, it's the nature of the attack, and the circumstances leading up to it that put you in the probable position for the techniques, you just haven't seen them applied yet.

Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab (hands palm down directly in front of you)? This is a 3rd brown technique, have your students not developed any degree of situational awareness at this point? Should this idea not be built into the technique or do we just assume that the student is still so unaware that they will have to begin from a natural stance?

In your expert opinion, what is the purpose of a grab or hug? Are these not merely precursors to further action? Hell don't we teach our students to grab a hold of their opponent and to pull them off balance in order to punch them in B1a and Darting Mace? Do we not grab our opponents with the intent to spin them around and throw them into some environmental object in Taming the mace or wrangle them down into an oncoming knee in backbreaker? So what exactly is the attackers intent in Desperate Falcons? How does this attack differ from oh say..... Begging Hands? Does it really differ enough to warrant a completely different technique?

I understand and even agree with, at least to some extent, Mr. C's explanation of the ideal phase.

DKL
So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.

Actually, I'm beginning to believe that Mr. Parker was indeed trying to create a system that he could easily market and sell (i.e. commercial kenpo). Not necessarily one that he would use himself, as many people have mentioned he had his own way of doing things. Otherwise why would there be a need for things like category completion, etc.? This is about the only reason I can come up with as to why certain things exist within the EPAK curriculum.