what is black dot focus? what is it not?

[Touch Of Death]

Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
Sean

 

[kenpo12]

I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.

 

[kenpoangel]

I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.

I'm with Matt,

I don't see no stinkin' dots but apparently the guys say they do after I ball kick 'em in the cup.

No wait a sec...that's little yellow birdies circlin' round their 'head'...nevermind.

What?

:btg:

 

[8253]

Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
Sean

the only dots i see are their eyes, right before i swell them shut. :flammad:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Maybe your talking that thing with the black concentration dots of some sort? like when you look between a bunch of back patterned squares on a white sheet of paper?...I'm not sure I've ever heard of that...

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.

I suspected as much. :asian:
Sean

 

[kenpo_cory]

Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
Sean

Not sure if your just wanting opinions or what. Personally, I think it's a very valuable tool for focusing on the whole picture and not just hitting someone randomly.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not sure if your just wanting opinions or what. Personally, I think it's a very valuable tool for focusing on the whole picture and not just hitting someone randomly.

I feel that is only one aspect of the cocept, but I'm glad someone seems to have heard of it.
Sean :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK. This one, however, is just plain nonsense. Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".

 

[Touch Of Death]

There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK. This one, however, is just plain nonsense. Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".

Spoken like a true Tracy's man. The Concept of Black dot focus is better described through metaphore but it is not a metaphore. It all has to do with attention and intention. A fifteen year old pays attention to his or her driving only. That person's parent can drive, change the radio station, eat french fries, and yell at their kids in the back seat all at the same time. That is because they have the intention of driving while they pay attention to other pressing matters; they hate that song and her kids won't stop[ singing along!
Another metaphore is the militarty. The Specialists are your white dot focus. The Officers and upper enlisted are your Black dot focus.
Declaring an Ed Parker concept nonsense just proves you never understood it in the first place.
Sean
Ps I studied Tracy's in Denver so I'm qualified to make that first statement. :uhyeah:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sorry, I'm not a Tracy's man either.

And, no matter how many ways you find to apply the BD/WD theory, it is still nonsense. But, feel free to prove me otherwise: provide one example where it made a significant difference in a self-defense situation outside the dojo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, I'm not a Tracy's man either.

And, no matter how many ways you find to apply the BD/WD theory, it is still nonsense. But, feel free to prove me otherwise: provide one example where it made a significant difference in a self-defense situation outside the dojo.

No problem, you pay attention to what part of the foot you kick with when you are first learning the knife edge in the studio, and you don't think about it on the street in a real situation. You have the developed the neuromuscular memory to black dot focus caliber. Do I need to tell you about the fights I was in where I used a proper weapon, or are you starting to get the idea?
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sean: I understand the basics of the concept. My skepticism is really about the value add of the vocabulary surrounding the concept. Most Kenpo vocabulary adds value by providing a better way to understand and apply Kenpo concepts. I believe that the vocabulary of Black Dot/White Dot adds no value.

For instance, using your example...you are able to use proper foot position because you practiced it and committed the proper position to muscle memory--not because you applied Black Dot / White Dot concept to your training or chose to apply it in a street situation.

When the vocabulary around the concept adds no value, it simply becomes jargon -- or "mumbo jumbo"

 

[psi_radar]

I think the analogy that I've heard that best described the concept to me was the "train tunnel." If you're in a train tunnel, your attention focuses on just one point--the white dot of light at the end that is your escape. The lesson being, don't target fixate rather than using your peripherals or expanded senses. A good to know but rather obvious concept.

This is also a lesson they teach at the motorcycle safety course. Target fixation is the leading cause of most newbie accidents.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean: I understand the basics of the concept. My skepticism is really about the value add of the vocabulary surrounding the concept. Most Kenpo vocabulary adds value by providing a better way to understand and apply Kenpo concepts. I believe that the vocabulary of Black Dot/White Dot adds no value.

For instance, using your example...you are able to use proper foot position because you practiced it and committed the proper position to muscle memory--not because you applied Black Dot / White Dot concept to your training or chose to apply it in a street situation.

When the vocabulary around the concept adds no value, it simply becomes jargon -- or "mumbo jumbo"

No, Mr. Wortman,
BDF and WDF are the main concept and commiting moves to neuro muscular memory is one apect of a broader concept. Forms are black dot focus and sets are white dot focus. Both have value. Kenpo is a black dot focus art. You train with the attitude of not having to pay attention to anything but what is happening at this exact moment. You can't focus on your memory for what to do, you can't think about what you should have done. Your only focus is on the now. Ignoring the broader generalized principles is what I jokingly call "caveman Kenpo"(my pet name for Tracy's) The Tracy's Iv'e talked to continualy say you can't be thinking about principles. Which is ironic because that is black dot focus. The mistake is to dismiss principles all toguether to acheive it. I could have sworn you said you came from a Tracy's school, Sorry for the mix up.
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sean: my instructor left the Tracy's in 1964. The Kenpo system he taught is similar in many ways to Tracy's, but is not Tracy's.

Again, no argument about the importance of proper mental focus. My only argument is about the value of calling it Black Dot / White Dot. You have eloquently explained the concept using terms everyone can understand. What is the value add of the BD WD jargon when plain language can explain the concept just as easily. One of the criticisms of many Oriental martial arts is that you have to learn Japanese, Korean, or Chinese names for the moves. One of the benefits of American Kenpo (for Americans at least) is that it is in English. Yet, American Kenpo has a term like BD WD that is just as obscure to an outsider as a Japanese term would be.

 

[Rainman]

Do a SEARCH for BLACK DOT FOCUS- This topic has been covered- And for you OLD FAT JUJITSUKA- How is it you have so much knowledge of a system you have never studied? :rtfm: O you tried to do that and you did not understand- imagine that. The II's are reference material, you cannot learn the art from a book. Do you think you can read a states tort law and be qualified to represent someone in a court of law?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean: my instructor left the Tracy's in 1964. The Kenpo system he taught is similar in many ways to Tracy's, but is not Tracy's.

Again, no argument about the importance of proper mental focus. My only argument is about the value of calling it Black Dot / White Dot. You have eloquently explained the concept using terms everyone can understand. What is the value add of the BD WD jargon when plain language can explain the concept just as easily. One of the criticisms of many Oriental martial arts is that you have to learn Japanese, Korean, or Chinese names for the moves. One of the benefits of American Kenpo (for Americans at least) is that it is in English. Yet, American Kenpo has a term like BD WD that is just as obscure to an outsider as a Japanese term would be.

Well I think the value is to understand where all these random things you are doing fit. Its the yin and yang I was provided with when I joined Kenpo. You can spar in the intention state or the attention state. You don't learn a whole hell of a lot in the intention state unless of course you get tagged. For me these are old words. They are in plain old english. However, if you haven't had this drilled in your head since you were a kid, I can understand why you might reject the metaphore. Thank you for dicussing this with me; a freind recently asked me what my overall philosophy of Kenpo was, and I thought for a while and said, "Black Dot Focus".
Sean :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK. This one, however, is just plain nonsense. Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".

Now your over on the KN calling the universal patern a spirograph drawing(ha ha ha). Have your cornflakes recently been tampered with? :flammad:
sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.

And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.

As for the terms being silly, well, no sillier than anything else in the martial arts. Pretty much everything we say about them is some sort of metaphor or tool, anyway...

Then there's the essential silliness of the whole gi-and-belt deal, or of practice, or of all our pretenses...