Deno Cain

[hardheadjarhead]

im not suggesting anything utopian, only that we currently celebrate molestors and abusers where once they were shamed.

Who is "we", Kemosabe?

I disagree. Strongly.

The mainstream of our society doesn't provide any laudations for the act of child molestation, as you suggest. The one reason the Michael Jackson case is so BIG is because society hates child molesters. If Jackson receives any support at all, its from people that truly believe he didn't do it.

I personally think he's a pedophile, and that he did it. But he, as weird as he is, also is entitled due process. I think his supporters are deluded fans...but he still should have his day in court.

Now, obviously NAMBLA "celebrates" child molestation. There are organizations for heterosexual pedophiles that do the same thing.

Note: They are the fringe. Please don't use "we" in referring to "them".

I think pain and humiliation are 2 of the best ways for anyone to learn a lesson.

Child molesters rarely "learn a lesson". The recividism rate for them is over 70%. Most of them are sociopathic and could give a rats *** for "rules". The only consequence of their actions they ever regret is that of getting caught. If they learn any lessons at all, it is NOT TO GET CAUGHT NEXT TIME.




Steve

 

[psi_radar]

I think that we need to take a serious look at the way we sexualize children in this society. I was horrified last summer when I saw racks of girl's half-shirts with sayings such as "bootylicious" emblazened on the front in sequins. We were in the kids' department of Kohl's looking for shorts for my 4-year old boy at the time. The shirts mentioned would have fit a 10-12 year old girl. My wife pointed out to me the other day that the ideal female form presented by the media and advertising most resembles a slightly post-pubescent girl--someone rail-thin with developed breasts but no hips or curves to speak of. This has certainly changed from the days of Ann Margret or even Farrah Fawcett as sex symbols.

I do believe that everyone is responsible for their own actions, but I think society, through fashion and the media, unfortunately provides some self-validation for people like R-Kelly.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I think that we need to take a serious look at the way we sexualize children in this society.

I can agree with that.

Go to a kid's dance recital and look at how the teachers and parents dress up their children. There are mainstream beauty pageants wherein the children do a bathing suit competition.

I don't think, however, this is going to create pedophiles. The worst thing I see from it is the blurring of sexual propriety for the kids themselves. Adolescents may become increasingly sexual with each other. They may be allready.

Parents are the gatekeepers for their children. They need to screen what their children see, read, wear...and most of all who they hang out with. If their kid's friends are dressing like that and going to the mall, they need to consider that. School dress codes need to be enforced...or changed. Pressure can be put on retailers to not sell that stuff.


Steve

 

[dearnis.com]

Interesting topic. It is easy to say "someone made this person act this way," but is a cop-out. Too many people do overcome the negative incidents of their youth. Mr. Cain is responsible for his actions, and has now been called upon to answer for them.
Hopefully his conviction will send a signal to his victims and lead them to seek the help they will need to get on with their lives.

Chad

And Steve, my book habit is bad enough; no more amazon links!

 

[freddrinkwine]

Regarding in particular what BB of Progressive Tactics had to say about society not punishing molesters as it once did:

BB - I understand your feelings about it but I'm afraid you're way off base. While there are examples today of molesters (especially famous people) not being punished, the overwhelming history of America has been one that supports and celebrates molesters.

Let's look at the facts: In the 40's and 50's - just as many kids were being molested (and wives beaten and raped) and so on, but the "system" and popular culture deemed all of that as private family matters...What a man does at home is HIS business, and so on. Frankly, if the police ever did become involved, if they did anything at all - it would usually involve placing the abused child in a reformatory and so on. This was always going on, and basically fully approved of by society based on the punishment meeted out to any victim that dared speak out.

Of course if a white woman was raped or often even looked at by a black man - ther'd be a hanging! This had noting to do with punishing rapists or molesters - this was simply another accepted outlet for the psychotic violent abyss that was the common male of the time.

Look at the sports figures of the day - the media wouldn't report all the misdeeds of the stupid idiot baseball heroes who by the way, often enjoyed sexual perversions with children of both sexes, and said victims would be provided by well-known business men and the like - you don't think the media knew? Please.

Look at the age difference between men and the women they married. It was completely acceptable - certainly envied - the greater the difference in age. Men in their forties marrying (I should say kidnapping) girls who were 13, 14, 15...years old. These people. This rapist and his victim were usually married in a church by a "holy man" who certainly knew about the difference in age.

Speaking of Holy men - do you really think that the pedo-priest stuff is in any way, shape or form something new? It's as old as the church. An organization dedicated to God - filled to the gills with raving pedophiles. When discovered, they are simply shuffled off to another church with fresh young faces to "minister to". That dope of of pope / though shielded by the denial of legions, presides over a smut hole of human tragedy.

It goes on and on. Look at our soldiers classically and traditionally raping women in foreign lands during war.


I don't mean to be excessively intense about this - but BB, you sound like a great guy with some real knowledge to share - BUT the problem of molesters / pedophiles, etc is not something new or something now being glorified. It is something that has subtely or overtly at times been regarded in our society as a man's (particularly white and wealthy) right to do. This is the illness we need to arrest to really understand the problem.

FD

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And Steve, my book habit is bad enough; no more amazon links!

Well, when you meet me next you can arrest me for being a pusher of an addictive substance. Or something.

Its an excellent book for somebody in your field. Or for any parent, for that matter.

FRED don't think I'm picking on you here, but once again I don't seem to understand what you mean. You quote "BB", and the attribution is indistinct because of a lack of quotation marks. You then disagree with him by essentially saying the very thing he is saying. You don't seem to disagree with him at all.

Could you clarify?


Steve

 

[freddrinkwine]

Hey Steve, what I was referring to is BB's general message (at least as I say it) was that we (society in general) used to punish molesters more so than we do now.

And when I responded - I was pointing out that that is not true. We as a society used to condone molesting because we simply would not talk about it at all. And victims who came forward were overwhelmingly the ones who would be punished (not the perpetrator).

We come from a soceity of males molesting anyone they can. It's about power and rage. While there may be anecdotal instances where a current famous person seems celebrated despite suspicions or perhaps proven allegations of such behavior, in the past the press would aide and abet the famous abusers by never reporting anything like that.

Frankly Steve, to change the world we have to change ourselves. To Changer ourselves (for the better ) we need look at where we've been. The sad truth is that for all the talk we got in grade school about how even our country America was founded on freedom and equal rights, and so on, the truth is that America was founded on the rape, molestation, abuse, and buthering of people all in the pursuit of power. Man's hidden past is why the darkness seems to go on like business as usual. Molesting isn't anyting new.

Fred


Fred

 

[Nightingale]

I'm still trying to figure out who BB is.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Nightingale
I'm still trying to figure out who BB is.

Progressivetactics signs his posts BB.
:asian:

 

[dearnis.com]

For those interested, the book I referenced earlier is by Anna Salter. I do NOT recommend it for everyone. She starts off the book my metaphorically stomach punching the reader. Her interviews with pedophiles are extremely disturbing.

A good recommendation Steve! You had to hot link it to Amazon, didn't you....
In all seriousness I got a great deal out of this book; in fact it should have been a police academy requirement. BUT, as Steve said, not for everybody.
Chad

 

[TonyM.]

I agree with Fred. We as a society do very little to child molesters. It doesn't seem to provide enough jobs or spend enough taxpayers money to be a viable interest for the leeches that pass for public officials here. Example: The justice department kidnapped Timothy Leary overseas in a nation we have no extradition with and brought him back to the states to serve prison time for drug charges. Meanwhile Roman Polanski is still alive and well and living in france.

 

[freddrinkwine]

I agree with Fred. We as a society do very little to child molesters. It doesn't seem to provide enough jobs or spend enough taxpayers money to be a viable interest for the leeches that pass for public officials here. Example: The justice department kidnapped Timothy Leary overseas in a nation we have no extradition with and brought him back to the states to serve prison time for drug charges. Meanwhile Roman Polanski is still alive and well and living in france.

Let me make myself clear on this topic - there seems to be great confusion on what I stated regarding society and molesters.

An idea was expressed by someone on this site that we as a society don't punish molesters like we once did. I responded that this is NOT THE CASE.

What I was pointing out was that regardless of anecdotal evidence of this guy or that guy getting away with it now a days, the phenomenon of molesting used to remain entirely unexamined and unspoken about in our culture. We never used to punish molesters in the past (in general - unless of course they were financially poor or black). Molesting was condoned in nearly all "higher" levels of society:

Men marrying (more like kidnapping) CHILDREN and marrying them (in Churches ran by men of GOD mind you - there's approval).

Family abuse - no matter how heinous, was referred to as a private family matter not to be aired in public - "A man's home is his castle". This belief system was ratified by the police who would basically never even consider arresting a man for beating, molesting, raping, etc his wife or kids.

Does anyone care to refute these general claims I am making?

Further - why do you think Shirly Temple movies were so popular with MEN? Because she was an unspoken ideal fantasy for them.

Celebraties and pro-sports figures: How many children did those celebrated freaks RAPE with the utter complicity of VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE MEDIA ESTABLISHMENT who would never ever touch these well-known stories with a 10-foot pole?

This is OUR SOCIETY'S "glorious" past of dealing with child molesters. At least TODAY we openly state it as being wrong and sick. Back in the day - the only thing wrong with RAPING A CHILD was if the RAPIST was poor or BLACK.

Sincerely, Fred Drinkwine.

 

[freddrinkwine]

Oh and one more thing...Just it is known, I am only going through this exercise of writing this stuff down because I feel that there are some readers of this site are interested in making the world a better place.

One place we can start is by cleaning our own house and yard (including martial arts)

One commonly stated protocol in the martial arts that I would consider creepy and a tool that a molester uses to sift through the sheep and find the one most susceptible:

ALWAYS BE LOYAL TO YOUR TEACHER.

This is NOT inheirantly twisted - the person may have inheirited the axiom without ever really questioning it or pushing it. But look at it - it's a commandment (usually stuck in there next to be honest, respectful, disciplinned, and so on - as if UNQUESTIONING LOYALTY IS SOMEHOW AN ADMIRABLE TRAIT WHEN IN ACTUALITY IT IS THE TRAIT OF A FOOL.

Instructors that utilize this axiom are basically saying that a "good student" is one that would never turn me in (to the authorities, or parents, etc) regardless of the many ways I abuse him/her.

I could go on and on and on - illustrating the sheer perversity of many commlonly used dojo-adages. Anyone care to dispute this?

Fred Drinkwine

 

[Black Bear]

Fred Drinkwine's last post has caught the CORRECT.

 

[theletch1]

No dispute here. That axiom has been around since the days when teaching a martial art could get you imprisoned or killed. It may have served a purpose at one time but I really think that it has gone past the point of being needed. Most dojos are based on a market economy (good product = customer loyalty) so I believe that so long as a quality product is offered the the loyalty to the instructor will be there.