Deno Cain

[freddrinkwine]

I saw the posts / questions regarding Deno Cain. Sadly, Mr. Cain was convicted of 3 counts of criminal sexual conduct with children in May of 2003. He is serving 3-15 years in prison. Authorities suspect that he had been molesting children since 1985 -dozens of people have come forward. Another black eye on the martial arts. Back when I was a student in a large school in the Detroit area - Mr. Cain came to our school and did a seminar. He was a long-time friend of my Sensei. Cain was friendly and motivating - but I could see he was similar to my own teacher - speaking to us all as if we are children. We need to open our eyes in the martial arts community. There are too many people who "have been around since the 70's" and thus anything they say goes. We need to recognize the unwarranted loyalty that is propogated in many a dojo / shame based environments where creepy molesters abuse the flock and everyone looks away. We need to start looking directly at these people who feel they are beyond question simply because they can kick the crap out of everyone in their school.

What happened with Mr. Cain is truly tragic (I'm glad he was stopped though - I'm glad he's no longer being made rich by the goup of people he was molesting freely). He became a molester most likely because HE was molested as a child and never got the help he needed.

MARTIAL ARTISTS: START SHINING THE LIGHT ON ALL THE CREEPS. STOP PROTECTING THEM - THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED; THEIR VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO NEED PROTECTION. STOP GIVING YOUR UNWARRANTED, UNQUESTIONING LOYALTIES TO THESE TWISTED EGOMANIACS.

I am currently being sued by my former teacher for violating a non-compete clause. I made him nearly a million dollars in a three-year period, and had to routinely swear that I would never leave, and that if I did, I would not teach anyone in the state for 25 years. I am now building a huge school in the area. I can help you do the same. Let's revolutionize this double - blackeyed industry and bring it a level of honor and positive societal contribution that it deserves but has been so often soiled by the few rotten and occasional toxic apples.

Fred Drinkwine

 

[Cruentus]

I have been in Detroit area for awhile, and paying attention to the Deno Cain issue for awhile as well. All I have to say is that I am glad he is in prison, and I hope that he never has the chance to work with kids again. I feel genuinly bad for not only his victims, but for his students and colleagues who looked up to him, not realizing his problem.

On a better note, if I am not mistaken, non-compete clauses as you describe are not legally binding in Michigan. What does your attorney say?

Also, congratulations on your new school. Where is it and when does it open? Could I maybe drop by to visit sometime, as it sounds like I may be in your area?

If you'd rather not publish your personal information here, please Private Message me, or even call me.

Sincerely,

Paul Janulis
248-722-1634

 

[hardheadjarhead]

He became a molester most likely because HE was molested as a child and never got the help he needed.

This isn't necessarily the case. Recent research in this area indicates that the majority of child molesters are not victims of molestation themselves. The notion that they are molested will continue to propogate itself, however. Gavin DeBecker wrote the introduction to Anna Salter's book "Predators" and presented this view. Salter herself doesn't seem to agree with it, though.

Some things to keep in mind insofar as the issue of child molestation goes:

Molesters that prefer adolescent children are considered by many psychologists to be hebephiles or ephebephiles. Contrast this to what many psychologists consider a pedophile...or a person attracted to a prepubescent child. Some, I suspect, go across that dividing line as well. This is a small point, and from a legal standpoint, matters not a bit.

Not all pedophiles are child molesters. Retired FBI profiler John Douglas and co-author Mark Olshaker pointed out in one of their many books that there might be thousands of "closeted" pedophiles who don't act on their impulses because they know it is wrong and harmful to children. They have a moral compass inspite of their emotional and sexual drives.

Not all child molesters are pedophiles. Again, recent research indicates that many serial rapists rape across a wide spectrum, and many have raped girls 12 and younger. Other molesters might be "state" molesters. They get drunk, molest, are repulsed by it, and perhaps never do it again. Many molesters might prefer adult women or men as partners, but molest because of opportunity. They would not fit the classic definitions of a pedophile or hebephile. For that definition, typically, an exclusive attraction is required.

I'm not familiar with this case, but it sounds like Cain is a preferred pedophile or hebephile, depending upon the age group he attacked.

I've suggested this elsewhere, but I think we should all pitch in, buy him a bar of soap, and suggest he drop it in the prison shower.

There are too many people who "have been around since the 70's" and thus anything they say goes.

As one of those instructors, I resent that. I'm not a child molester, and I neither physically or emotionally abuse my students regardless of their age. There are other instructors on this forum that are also products of the seventies, and I don't think they deserve to be lumped in with Cain, either.

We need to start looking directly at these people who feel they are beyond question simply because they can kick the crap out of everyone in their school.

I agree. But they too are not necessarily child molesters.


Regards,


Steve Scott

 

[freddrinkwine]

I enjoyed your response to my post regarding Cain. I can see that your response was well-thought out and sincere.

A couple of things: The research I have read on dysfunctional behavior of many kinds (alcoholism, physical / sexual abuse, abandonment, addiction of all kinds)- these behaviors all represent unresolved trauma previously inflicted upon the person now comitting the abuse. I'm sure that some people are hardwired in the brain as pedophiles or some other "phile" and so on. But so many pedophiles and / or molesters come from past sexual abuse situations where they are simply reenacting the trauma that they experienced. Check out John Bradshaw's work: FAMILY SECRETS, HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU, BRADSHAW ON THE FAMILY.

Next point, under no circumstances did I mean to imply that all instructors who have been around since the "70's" or whatever are molesters.

HOWEVER - armed with the right knowledge of healthy behavior vs unhealthy behavior, one cannot deny that the martial arts culture is a haven for dysfunctional kings to rule over their shame-based theifdoms. It is a relationship that is based upon someone having power over others - with supposed philosophical / spiritual underpinnings. The problem is that so many of the rulers don't know anything other than how to punch, kick, and shame their subordinates.

These exhalted teachers that try to highjack other people's dreams and spirits - control freaks - this is a form of molesting. It's not sexual molesting - it's mental / spiritual molesting.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE MARTIAL ARTS.

MAYBE YOU ARE A GREAT TEACHER - I DON'T KNOW. BUT THAT'S THE FACT - I DON'T KNOW.

And sadly when I hear that you have been around since when you have, it tells me that this man has done alot of practice, and likely has spent alot of time around soul-murdering black hole teachers - hmmm.

I hope you are one of the good ones.

But people like me represent a movement that is (OVER TIME) going to overtake the martial arts and you are going to see long-time, famously respected teachers - publicly laughed at and run out of town.

Good luck to you.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And sadly when I hear that you have been around since when you have, it tells me that this man has done alot of practice, and likely has spent alot of time around soul-murdering black hole teachers - hmmm.

Could you please clarify what you just wrote? It makes absolutely NO sense. "This man" being me? How does one soul-murder a "black hole teacher"? What IS a "black hole teacher"?

Insofar as me being around for that amount of time, you make it sound as if a person of my age is AUTOMATICALLY suspect of being less moral than a younger person. Do the older veterans of the sixties and fifties (there are a few on this forum) also fall into this category? Are younger people automatically free of suspicion and incapable of abuse?

Isn't this...what? Ageism? I've been reviled for being a man and for being white...I've never been maligned for being middle aged.

As far as your view of "exalted" teachers who hijack other people's dreams, etc...you're correct. There are a lot of those control freaks out there. They generally do not prosper. Some of them are in their twenties.

Bradshaw's book: Healing the Shame...written in 1988. Assuming he was using research of the day his material is likely over twenty years old. Note that I said "recent" research. The recent research indicates that a large number of molesters are not victims of molestation.

I quote Anna Salter from her book "Predators":

"In a series of three studies, the offenders who claimed they were abused as a child were 67 percent, 65 percent, and 61 percent without the threat of a polygraph. With polygraph (and conditional immunity), the offenders who claimed they were abused as children were 29 percent, 32 percent, and 30 percent, respectively. The polygraph groups reported approximately half the amount of victimization as children as the non polygraph groups did."

Note here the issue isn't how reliable the polygraph is...rather how reliable the offenders thought the polygraph was.

The study: Hindman, J., and J. Peters (2001). "Polygraph testing leads to better understanding adult and juvenile sex offenders." Federal probation 65(3): 8-15.

Salter points out that "Being victimized as a child has become a ready excuse for perpetrating child molestation. The offender who claims he himself was victimized gets seen as less of a "monster" than one who wasn't a victim, and he gains much more empathy and support. It is hard to trust self-reports of sex offenders about abuse in their past when such reports are in their best interest."

Here is a point, freddrinkwine, that I'd like you to consider...why frighten children and adults who are victims of molestation into believing THEY will grow up as molesters themselves? And this with dubious evidence? They have enough issues to deal with without an uneccessary load of anxiety about something that isn't necessarily going to happen.



Regards,

Steve

 

[freddrinkwine]

Steve, perhaps I should have placed a comma between soul-murdering and black hole as it referred not to one theoretically soul-murdering A black hole, but rather that the teacher in question IS a soul-murdering, black hole.

A black hole teacher is one that can be seen around in schools across the country. Look for the following:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

So, if I take it correctly, your point is that I (being a product of the seventies) have spent a lot of time around soul-murdering "black hole" teachers?

Is that what your saying?

If so, what is your point? Are you suggesting I don't have a soul? Or are you suggesting I have somehow been negatively influenced in other ways?

If not, please clarify.


Steve

 

[arnisador]

Perhaps it would be best to take this to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[freddrinkwine]

steve, i'm sorry - the email sent before i was done writing it. I agree with you that some of my statements were sweeping and innacurate. If you care to - please read the complete version. Further - I have no more need to discuss the negative aspects of martial arts (as the complete email states at the end). Thank you for being a long distance sounding board - it sounds like you have some real knowledge that i could learn from.

Fred Drinkwine

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by freddrinkwine

What happened with Mr. Cain is truly tragic (I'm glad he was stopped though - I'm glad he's no longer being made rich by the goup of people he was molesting freely).

He became a molester most likely because HE was molested as a child and never got the help he needed.

My first thought is only 3-15 years? There are choices me all make thoughout our lifetime and we are responsible for our decisions and actions. He made his decisions and carried out his actions and must take responsibility for them.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Fred,

I haven't received any e-mail.

You can PM me if you like.

For those interested, the book I referenced earlier is by Anna Salter. I do NOT recommend it for everyone. She starts off the book my metaphorically stomach punching the reader. Her interviews with pedophiles are extremely disturbing.

Still, for those who can handle it, it is an important book. She provides some very useful information that professionals and parents can use.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...1146046/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-4509598-3957504

My first thought is only 3-15 years?

Makes one wonder what the typical sentence is...and how much time is actually served. The recividism rate is incredibly high...you'd think they'd keep them in longer.



Steve

 

[Tapps]

I highly reccommend books by Gavin Debecker.

I use "The Gift of Fear" when I teach womens self defense courses. I also keep a copy in my counseling office at school.

He also has a book called "Protecting the gift" which deals with keeping children safe.

 

[progressivetactics]

We are in a society that does not punish molestors as it once did, or claimed to. If you are medium or above medium income, you are less of a threat or criminal in the populace eye. 3 years is hardly enough time to serve for all the things taken away from the kids/victims. Especially considering Time spent in jail is hardly "hard time". The prisoners have more rights now then ever, and I thought prison was for people who lost their rights becuase they couldn't deal with the laws of the people.

Roman Polanski, drugging and anally raping a youth, to R. Kelly influencing his young victims into the bed room... Our current mind set has been awarding these people with critical acclaim. Polanski just won a huge directoral award, and R Kelly just won 4 grammys.

It is a sad time we are in, and need to change the current trend. I feel bad for the victims of Deno Cain, and all like them.

bb

 

[Tapps]

I feel bad for the victims of Deno Cain, and all like them.

amen

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by freddrinkwine
I saw the posts / questions regarding Deno Cain. Sadly, Mr. Cain was convicted of 3 counts of criminal sexual conduct with children in May of 2003. He is serving 3-15 years in prison. Authorities suspect that he had been molesting children since 1985 -dozens of people have come forward. Another black eye on the martial arts. Back when I was a student in a large school in the Detroit area - Mr. Cain came to our school and did a seminar. He was a long-time friend of my Sensei. Cain was friendly and motivating - but I could see he was similar to my own teacher - speaking to us all as if we are children. We need to open our eyes in the martial arts community. There are too many people who "have been around since the 70's" and thus anything they say goes. We need to recognize the unwarranted loyalty that is propogated in many a dojo / shame based environments where creepy molesters abuse the flock and everyone looks away. We need to start looking directly at these people who feel they are beyond question simply because they can kick the crap out of everyone in their school.

What happened with Mr. Cain is truly tragic (I'm glad he was stopped though - I'm glad he's no longer being made rich by the goup of people he was molesting freely). He became a molester most likely because HE was molested as a child and never got the help he needed.

MARTIAL ARTISTS: START SHINING THE LIGHT ON ALL THE CREEPS. STOP PROTECTING THEM - THEY DON'T DESERVE TO BE PROTECTED; THEIR VICTIMS ARE THE ONES WHO NEED PROTECTION. STOP GIVING YOUR UNWARRANTED, UNQUESTIONING LOYALTIES TO THESE TWISTED EGOMANIACS.

I am currently being sued by my former teacher for violating a non-compete clause. I made him nearly a million dollars in a three-year period, and had to routinely swear that I would never leave, and that if I did, I would not teach anyone in the state for 25 years. I am now building a huge school in the area. I can help you do the same. Let's revolutionize this double - blackeyed industry and bring it a level of honor and positive societal contribution that it deserves but has been so often soiled by the few rotten and occasional toxic apples.

Fred Drinkwine

25 years? I don't think so. That is creative law.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by progressivetactics
We are in a society that does not punish molestors as it once did, or claimed to. If you are medium or above medium income, you are less of a threat or criminal in the populace eye. 3 years is hardly enough time to serve for all the things taken away from the kids/victims. Especially considering Time spent in jail is hardly "hard time". The prisoners have more rights now then ever, and I thought prison was for people who lost their rights becuase they couldn't deal with the laws of the people.

Roman Polanski, drugging and anally raping a youth, to R. Kelly influencing his young victims into the bed room... Our current mind set has been awarding these people with critical acclaim. Polanski just won a huge directoral award, and R Kelly just won 4 grammys.

It is a sad time we are in, and need to change the current trend. I feel bad for the victims of Deno Cain, and all like them.

bb

Your wording suggests we are moving farther and farther from the utopian society we once were. Child molestation has always been alive and well in any era you choose to name;so, what era are you talking about?

 

[progressivetactics]

im not suggesting anything utopian, only that we currently celebrate molestors and abusers where once they were shamed.

I mentioned nothing of an era without molestors, but a much more accepting society now.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by progressivetactics
im not suggesting anything utopian, only that we currently celebrate molestors and abusers where once they were shamed.

I mentioned nothing of an era without molestors, but a much more accepting society now.

I don't know if I'd agree that society is more accepting, but I think that we've all become desensitized to hearing about rape and child molestation. Just about every day on the news there's a story that somehow involves a sexually abused child. The positive side of this is that no one sweeps this kind of the thing under the rug anymore, and we're better able to educate children about protecting themselves.

 

[Nightingale]

In the past, molesters weren't shamed, VICTIMS WERE!

In the past, everyone looked the other way, because discussing abuse wasn't "polite conversation".

 

[progressivetactics]

Nightingale,

I agree Victims were sometimes shamed and sometimes ashamed. So were molestors. Even tortured. I'm not against more physical punishment for these acts. I think pain and humiliation are 2 of the best ways for anyone to learn a lesson.