Defense Against The Bearhug

[green meanie]

Well said!

 

[Brad Dunne]

I'd like to ask you this...why do we bother to train at all? I mean, if we stop and think about it, the same reasoning you're using for the bearhug, can be said of pretty much any attack and defense on our part. I could train until I'm blue in the face against a double leg takedown, but going up against someone like Randy Couture,

OK. we're compareing apples to oranges here. We're not in the ring with a so-called trained fighter, we're on the street in a real world situation.
For the life of me, I can't understand how folks can keep missing the point on this. A rear bearhug grab and slam is SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend.

We train so we can confront an aggressor if need be and hopefully come away safe. That dosen't mean that it's going to happen that way, but in training we at least give ourselves the "fighting chance" - pun intended. As for the TKD influence, we study old school TKD which has throws, takedown, jointlocks and so on. So we have gone thru all of the standard attack situations and grabs. Thru trial and error, we have found that this particular attack in question is real trouble. A sucker punch - no defense...why? because you don't know it's coming. Anyone disagree with this assessment? If you agree with this situation, then how in the world can you disagree with a come from behind, grab and slam all within a seconds time frame and you don't know it's coming. I fail to see the difference.

 

[MJS]

I'd like to ask you this...why do we bother to train at all? I mean, if we stop and think about it, the same reasoning you're using for the bearhug, can be said of pretty much any attack and defense on our part. I could train until I'm blue in the face against a double leg takedown, but going up against someone like Randy Couture,

OK. we're compareing apples to oranges here. We're not in the ring with a so-called trained fighter, we're on the street in a real world situation.
For the life of me, I can't understand how folks can keep missing the point on this. A rear bearhug grab and slam is SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend.

Actually, its not apples to oranges. I used the example of Randy as just that...an example. As I said, the same can be said of any attack, being thrown by anyone that just may happen to be more skilled than us.

We train so we can confront an aggressor if need be and hopefully come away safe. That dosen't mean that it's going to happen that way, but in training we at least give ourselves the "fighting chance" - pun intended. As for the TKD influence, we study old school TKD which has throws, takedown, jointlocks and so on. So we have gone thru all of the standard attack situations and grabs. Thru trial and error, we have found that this particular attack in question is real trouble. A sucker punch - no defense...why? because you don't know it's coming. Anyone disagree with this assessment? If you agree with this situation, then how in the world can you disagree with a come from behind, grab and slam all within a seconds time frame and you don't know it's coming. I fail to see the difference.

Again, you are basing this on what you have seen in your training. First off, we're not talking about punches here, but bearhugs. I do agree with you on that point. However, the difference is that with the punch, there is no contact, other than the actual hit. With the bearhug, the defense needs to begin as soon as contact is felt. If you look further in my post, you'll notice that I said that you're assuming that everyone that grabs us, is going to be capable of lifting us as well.

I'll be the first to admit, that I made assumptions about things that I thought were not in Kenpo. After talking to people, I came to realize that perhaps it was the way I was being taught, that led me to believe there was a void in the art, when in fact it was there all along. I learned not to 'assume' that we were all doing the same variation of Kenpo. The same can be said here, as I said above. Until you've seen how everyone out there trains, to say that the bearhug defense is impossible is wrong.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I agree there can be zero delay in reaction time on a bearhug or any grab for that matter. Punches you have a very slight playtime in it since you can move out of its range and then counter.

 

[still learning]

Hello, We are still at it? ....Lets take a count...only real situtions here?

As the time goes by..remember this forum. When the bearhug happen and a person try to slam you right away....please list your results.

Hopefully...one day there will be enough real/truthful information...to decide if it is possible or impossible the defend this? (now if you die....from the slam...you do not need to answer this). So we may not get all the answers because of death, only those with no-injury and injury can apply here. Equal opportunity is provided

Lets wait and see? ........Aloha

 

[green meanie]

For the life of me, I can't understand how folks can keep missing the point on this. A rear bearhug grab and slam is SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend. I have been in this situation on more than a few occasions and I have defended myself against it exactly the way I described. That counter, and other counters that were suggested by experienced grapplers, were for your benefit and an opportunity to add a real defense to your arsenal. All it would've took was an open mind and a willingness to practice and train until you got the hang of it. But you have made up your mind on this one and have already decided that it cannot be done so, on this one, the learning stops here. That's unfortunate but maybe someday you'll come around. I'm going to leave you with a couple of quotes from people who express a few points much better than I can. Best of luck to you in your training.

"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." -Chinese Proverb

"Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours." -Richard Bach

"All receive advice. Only the wise profit from it." -Syrus

 

[Henderson]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK that there is just no time to react and defend. I have been in this situation on more than a few occasions and I have defended myself against it exactly the way I described. That counter, and other counters that were suggested by experienced grapplers, were for your benefit and an opportunity to add a real defense to your arsenal. All it would've took was an open mind and a willingness to practice and train until you got the hang of it. But you have made up your mind on this one and have already decided that it cannot be done so, on this one, the learning stops here. That's unfortunate but maybe someday you'll come around. I'm going to leave you with a couple of quotes from people who express a few points much better than I can. Best of luck to you in your training.

Very well said.

 

[Brad Dunne]

With the bearhug, the defense needs to begin as soon as contact is felt.

I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK.

Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position. I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick. Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened. For eveyone that we did this too and in return had it done to ourselves, not only from our school and discipline but others who were of different disciplines all came to the same conclusion. Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react. But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time. You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend. Just as there is no time to react/defend against a sucker punch, the bearhug slam will not take but a few milliseconds more than that punch. But apparently since we weren't talking about pinches, I can't use that as an example, only those that disagree with me can use any examples they wish.

Now a quote from our Eastern book of wisdom; Chinese saying - "Man who sit on tack, soon raise to great heights".

OK, the debate is finished. We will agree to disagree . :asian:

 

[still learning]

Hello, In our school we train, no matter what the attack is...react to it..don't spend time thinking about it...react...

Is it possible to defend against a rear bearhug and been lifted almost the same time....VERY POSSIBLE!!!!

The same for a rear grab to shoulder..false crack attack...turn-duck-block/hit same time...will it always work...possible/and can be not so lucky.

Jackie chan gets away with the rear bearhugs with lift and so does Jet Li...works in the movies. Why not the real world?

Can one defend against a rear bearhug and lifted? ....Yes and Yes..unless not so fast....then the slam and blam....thank-you man!

For those whose mind is made up (to believe it cannot be defended)...you must think many other things are impossible too....

an open mind...can create new wonders....one must believe it is possible to achieve the unachievable....to succeed.

The world was once known to be flat...today we have flat TV's. (Huh?)

Think of it this way...for every attack (strike) is it possible for it to make contact, yes!
!...at the same time..it is also possible to block it, yes!

There will always be exceptions: except for this one...Aloha

 

[JamesB]

I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.

agreed.

Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position. I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick.

which is it? a rear-bearhug or a slam? you can't have both at the same time, the bearhug attack must come first, the pickup second *after* the attacker has reset his feet and body from "frontal-assault" mode to "lift-up" mode. The slam will come after the lift, but the attacker should not even get this far. It is very easy to sense this shift in the attacker's body as his arms will be tight around you.

Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened.

This is what I understand to be is involved in a bearhug *attack*, and is how I have been taught by my instructor:

A bearhug isn't a sporting manouver taken out of wrestling, it is a full-on, aggressive, violent assault. In order for the attacker to surprise you he must utilize significant body momentum to take you 'off-guard'. So the first phase of the attack is actually a 'bump' forwards as the attacker makes contact with you. He isn't going to quietly sneak up behind you, gently put his arms around you and then begin the 'attack' from there.

Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react.

the attacker has 'bumped' you forwards and even with his arms around you, you easily have enough time to apply specific footwork + body postures to absorb the attacker's momentum, at the same time misaligning his body making it impossible to pick you off the ground once he finally gets to this stage. it works, even if the attacker is significantly bigger/stronger/heavier than you.

But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time.

If the hug is done 'right' as you say, then you must take into account the momentum of the attacker as he makes contact. For a realistic bearhug *attack*, the grab/hug and the lift *cannot* be executed at the same time. They are distinct phases of the attack in their own right.

You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend.

I don't agree with this statement, in my experience there is plenty of time to react due to the nature of the attack itself.

We will agree to disagree . :asian:

agreed

james

 

[MJS]

With the bearhug, the defense needs to begin as soon as contact is felt.

I really don't want to get mundane on this but, but reaction time to anything is predicated on several variables, of which awareness is number one. It is extremly doubtful that one will be aware of being attacked from the rear, otherwise the bearhug will not be successful. Again I refer to any attack that you don't know is coming, ie: sucker punch, kick or what have you.

You're still missing the point, but JamesB has pointed it out very well. The lift will not come before the arms are fully wrapped, and the body must be in proper position in order to lift.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I keep 'missing' the point is because a bearhug grab and slam is not SO QUICK.

Apparently you are speaking for everyone because you disagree with my position. I don't know how or with whom you train, but a rear bearhug and slam is very quick. Now there are some folks here who have seemed to gotten my point and are in quasi-agreement with the elements pertaining to this attack. As for you being in that situation many times and succeded in defending, good for you, I'm glad you were successful, but I question the intent and where this may have happened. For eveyone that we did this too and in return had it done to ourselves, not only from our school and discipline but others who were of different disciplines all came to the same conclusion. Now I will conceed that the grab must be effectively secured, but that dosen't take a whole heck of a lot to do, or then yes you will have a modicum of time to react. But if and when the grab/hug is done right and you are lifted at the same time - yes we're talking milliseconds here - you are being pulled backwards and sidewards and being lifted all at the same time. You can postulate that you can defend against this attack, but if it is done for real, there is NO TIME - repeat NO TIME to react/defend. Just as there is no time to react/defend against a sucker punch, the bearhug slam will not take but a few milliseconds more than that punch. But apparently since we weren't talking about pinches, I can't use that as an example, only those that disagree with me can use any examples they wish.

Apparently you are doing the same!

OK, the debate is finished. We will agree to disagree . :asian:

Apparently it is finished, because you fail to see any reasoning other than your own!

Mike

 

[Brad Dunne]

OK folks, this is my last posting on the subject - promise!

I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly. Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique. Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye. There is no grab then time to proceed to the lift and then time on to the slam, it's all done within a seconds time frame. If you feel that you can defend against this attack, more power to you, I just hope you never have to for real.

There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that? Because it happens so quickly, there's no time to react and there was no awareness that it was coming. The rear bearhug/slam falls into the same equation and within a fast enough time frame to be aligned with the sucker punch example. I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite. I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.

 

[JamesB]

I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly.

so you're basing your opinion on something you watched in UFC? a sport, comprising two competitors with a well defined set of rules? I'm not disputing that these guys can fight, but the nature of the attack is very different when competing.

Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique. Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye.

you are still failing to take into account the momentum of the attacker as he makes contact. This is not a sport, this is a violent, criminal assault. The *attacker* is not your opponent, he has a very different goal in mind when he attempts the bearhug.

There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that?

I dispute it. Self-defence begins with an awareness of one's environment.

I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite.

then learn a Martial Art that teaches you how to defend yourself. There are plently of people on this forum that can give advise on this subject.

I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.

It is an apparent problem for *you*, yet you assume that everyone else suffers the same limitations?

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Keep in mind the UFC does not allow groin strikes or grabs or tears. I have thrown a few people by reaction with being grabbed and them trying to take me down quickly. Did the throw look pretty no way but it worked.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly.

Umm .. yes, I've seen folks successfully caught with a rear bearhug-to-suplex attack in the UFC. I've also seen fighters successfully defend against that same technique on just as many occasions. Successful defenses have included grapevining the thrower's legs, moving the hips down and away from the attacker's hips, followed by breaking the attacker's grip and turning, and sinking the hips while simultaneously counterattacking with a kimura. Just because you've seen the attack sometimes be successful, doesn't mean that it's always effective.

Of course, a self-defense situation is somewhat different. If the attacker actually manages a complete surprise from behind, that is a huge advantage for the attacker, regardless of the attack. As the defender, your odds are much better if you at least detect the attacker a moment before contact, even if it's not in time to prevent the bearhug from starting. If you are caught completely by surprise ... well, you'd better hope that a) the attacker isn't a skilled wrestler or b) you yourself are a world-class grappler who will react in time despite the surprise. Fortunately, most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers, which gives you a moment's opportunity to counter the attack.

Since the original question covered all sorts of bearhugs, let's examine the permutations:

1) Front bearhug, over the arms. Thank you, you've just given me double underhooks. This gives me a choice of takedowns.

2) Front bearhug, under the arms. The biggest danger here is being bent over backwards and taken down. This can happpen very quickly if the attacker knows what he's doing. To prevent this, sag the hips backward and push the attacker's face back with both hands. Once you've broken his grip, you can transition to striking.

3) Rear bearhug, under the arms. If the attacker knows how to suplex, this is the most dangerous. You've only got a moment to get your hips away and fight for hand control to break his grip. If you are lifted, try to grapevine the legs. If the attacker doesn't know how to suplex, you've got lots of options, but try to establish a safe base with your hips low before you get crazy with the striking.

4) Rear bearhug, over the arms. This position makes it harder for the attacker to lift you, especially if you drop your hips low. I can generally get out of this position, but it usually involves playing games with my opponent's balance. Some backwards slaps or upward heel kicks to the groin can sometimes be usuful, depending on what is open.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Umm .. yes, I've seen folks successfully caught with a rear bearhug-to-suplex attack in the UFC. I've also seen fighters successfully defend against that same technique on just as many occasions. Successful defenses have included grapevining the thrower's legs, moving the hips down and away from the attacker's hips, followed by breaking the attacker's grip and turning, and sinking the hips while simultaneously counterattacking with a kimura. Just because you've seen the attack sometimes be successful, doesn't mean that it's always effective.

Of course, a self-defense situation is somewhat different. If the attacker actually manages a complete surprise from behind, that is a huge advantage for the attacker, regardless of the attack. As the defender, your odds are much better if you at least detect the attacker a moment before contact, even if it's not in time to prevent the bearhug from starting. If you are caught completely by surprise ... well, you'd better hope that a) the attacker isn't a skilled wrestler or b) you yourself are a world-class grappler who will react in time despite the surprise. Fortunately, most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers, which gives you a moment's opportunity to counter the attack.

Since the original question covered all sorts of bearhugs, let's examine the permutations:

1) Front bearhug, over the arms. Thank you, you've just given me double underhooks. This gives me a choice of takedowns.

2) Front bearhug, under the arms. The biggest danger here is being bent over backwards and taken down. This can happpen very quickly if the attacker knows what he's doing. To prevent this, sag the hips backward and push the attacker's face back with both hands. Once you've broken his grip, you can transition to striking.

3) Rear bearhug, under the arms. If the attacker knows how to suplex, this is the most dangerous. You've only got a moment to get your hips away and fight for hand control to break his grip. If you are lifted, try to grapevine the legs. If the attacker doesn't know how to suplex, you've got lots of options, but try to establish a safe base with your hips low before you get crazy with the striking.

4) Rear bearhug, over the arms. This position makes it harder for the attacker to lift you, especially if you drop your hips low. I can generally get out of this position, but it usually involves playing games with my opponent's balance. Some backwards slaps or upward heel kicks to the groin can sometimes be usuful, depending on what is open.

All good points Tony. Just remember everyone that there are no absolutes, what one person does the next person might not. Some people can probably lift and slam almost immediately with little or no time to defend. In this situation you need to be aware and if that breaks down then grapevine his legs to try and prevent the slam. (tough to do) However, not everyone can bump, wrap, lift and slam almost immediately, so you might have a chance to apply multiple options at this point. There are just no absolutes. Good thread by the way, filled with good posts!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[still learning]

Hello, "OK' let say it is not possible to escape this bearhug lift and slam. Later on you found out it someone had escape from being slam. Does this still make it impossible to defend against?

Lots of people think certain thing in life is not possible like the 4 minute mile...swim across the English Channel, dive to hundred plus feet down on one breath....(.many divers here do this regularly here).

Just because you cannot defend against it...doesn't mean it is impossible to escape this bearhug lift and slam. I'am positive some people are able to escape this?

No to reactions will be the same....Aloha

Kinda like which came first? the chicken or the turkey? oops egg?

 

[Hand Sword]

Maybe, but, hard to think of. The grab, pick up, and slam is kind of done in one quick move.

 

[MJS]

OK folks, this is my last posting on the subject - promise!

I will leave you with this observation. I, as I'm sure other's have also, have seen the rear bearhug done in the UFC and the person was slamed to the ground, there was no defense offered or allowed because it happens very quickly. Trained fighters, in the throws of a combatant mindset, were not able to protect themselves from this technique.

So let me ask you this. Why are you talking about the UFC when you said this:

OK. we're compareing apples to oranges here. We're not in the ring with a so-called trained fighter, we're on the street in a real world situation.

You're basing your decision as to what works/does not work based on the UFC?? My God, this is starting to sound like a thread that was recently locked.

Now put this on a different level, someone grabs you from behind and your were unaware it was coming, and note* - they don't have to rush into you and push you forward off balance either. You get wraped, lifted and pulled backwards all in the blink of eye. There is no grab then time to proceed to the lift and then time on to the slam, it's all done within a seconds time frame. If you feel that you can defend against this attack, more power to you, I just hope you never have to for real.

So the attacker is going to tip-toe up behind you and just wrap his arms around you??? Again, you're missing the point! If the attack is going to be violent, like others have said, then yes, there will be forward or backward momentum, based on what JamesB has said. The arms need to be wrapped and the attackers body needs to be in a proper position...his hips close to yours...in order for a lift to happen. Reaction needs to happen right away.

There are some absolutes in this world and this includes the martial arts. I see no one disputes the ability to not defend against the sucker punch. Why is that? Because it happens so quickly, there's no time to react and there was no awareness that it was coming. The rear bearhug/slam falls into the same equation and within a fast enough time frame to be aligned with the sucker punch example. I'm not closed minded to learning, just the opposite. I look for things that will give folks trouble and attempt to see if there is/are better ways to defend. This particular attack stands out as a major problem.

Please go back and read what I posted before. The punch is going to be harder due to the fact that there is no contact other than the punch hitting your head! The bearhug will involve contact before a lift and or dump happens. As I said before, why are we putting ourselves in a situation in which we're not being aware???

 

[still learning]

Hello, It is possible to defend against the sucker punch(yes)....practice and keeping practice for it.

Next when someone yells "duck" or bomb!, what do you do before thinking about it? ...you move quickly. ..instincts base on past history.

someone toss a ball, you turn to look...some of us will stop and catch the ball...others will get hit.

you are walking and trip ...some of us will catch ourselves..other times ...oops.

There will always be a chance for survival...a chance to defend against it....Nothing can be written in stone here....paper yea? ..but it will not be forever.

We must believe all attacks can be defended and prevented from going futher. Is there any other way here? maybe ......Aloha

PS: Great posting guys..your passion shows ....