Defending oneself (or others) in a holy place

[SamT]

As my instructor taught me:

"Only go as far as you need to go to control the situation." Most of the time, just a joint lock is enough to get someone under control. Under more serious circumstances, dropping them to the ground tends to get them pulled back into reality.

 

[Phoenix44]

I realize we're all martial artists, but doesn't anyone use discussion anymore?

 

[Jdokan]

kill'em all & let GOD sort it out....

 

[geezer]

kill'em all & let GOD sort it out....

How incredibly appropriate for this thread.

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."

These words, roughly translated as "Kill them all. God will know his own" were attributed to the Legate of Pope Innocent III, Arnaud Amaury, also known as the "Butcher of Beziers". Charged with the task of eliminating the Albigensian herecy in Occitan in 1209, (SE France) he cornered a few hundred suspects in the good Catholic city of Beziers. When the city-folk wouldn't or couldn't surrender the accused, he is said to have uttered these noble and inspiring words, ordering the murder of every man, woman and child in the town... a total population estimated at 20,000. A huge number took refuge in the city's cathedral where they were burned alive. The rest were hunted down like vermin and their bodies were playfully dragged through the streets behind horses.

A great way to respect life in a holy place, eh? You got any other cute mottos? How about some good Nazi slogans? "Work will make you free". That was over the gate of Auschwitz, I believe.

 

[nitflegal]

I guess I don't understand the distinction between a place of worship and anywhere else or through the use of minimum of technique. I would think the goal of a martial artist is to use the minimum force necessary to halt the situation. Assess the situation and threat potential of the participants, defuse the situation with words if possible while making sure that you and yours are protected, escalate to the minimum force needed to control the situation until safety is acheived, and respond as appropriate to changes in the situation/environment. I don't care if it's a banger or uncle John, if I can defuse with words or minimal physical restraint, I will. In the same vein, if the banger or Uncle John are trying to hurt/kill me or a loved one, they will end up hurt or killed. The only differences will be the damage I'll allow myself to accept (not a big differnce there, honestly) and the regret I feel at the end.

I believe God would want me to protect the innocent, in His house more than anywhere else.

Matt

 

[morph4me]

I realize we're all martial artists, but doesn't anyone use discussion anymore?

Good point, I just assume that we're being asked about a situation where discussion is no longer an option.

 

[KP.]

Let me address this a little differently. I generally carry a firearm. Including to church. And I know the places in the church that provide cover versus concealment. I've planned how I'd respond in the event of someone posing a threat to the congretation during Mass, up to and including lethal force.

I lived in a Catholic monastery for a few years after the first Gulf War. An amazingly large number of the monks were veterans, usually from the higher end of the training spectrum.

I can assure you that there wasn't one of them who would condone that answer.

They would rather die than resort to violence against another person ever again. The example and message of the many martyrs over the centuries, to them, is an example to emulate, not one to sacrifice for personal gain.

If a Church's message is peace and "turning the other cheek," and you enter that place with the willingness and intent to simply ignore that message, then frankly, you do not hold to that faith and do the community a disservice by remaining a member there.

 

[morph4me]

I lived in a Catholic monastery for a few years after the first Gulf War. An amazingly large number of the monks were veterans, usually from the higher end of the training spectrum.

I can assure you that there wasn't one of them who would condone that answer.

They would rather die than resort to violence against another person ever again. The example and message of the many martyrs over the centuries, to them, is an example to emulate, not one to sacrifice for personal gain.

If a Church's message is peace and "turning the other cheek," and you enter that place with the willingness and intent to simply ignore that message, then frankly, you do not hold to that faith and do the community a disservice by remaining a member there.

As opposed to doing the community a service and becoming a victim along with those who can't or won't protect themselves? Martyrdom is not for everyone, and if that's called for by any church, temple or any other institution I wouldn't belong there anyway.

 

[KP.]

As opposed to doing the community a service . . .

jks9199 used the word "mass," so I assume he's Catholic. In the Catholic faith, the Bishop is the ultimate authority over the parishes within the diocese.

Pretend you're in his shoes.

Now, go ask the Bishop if he wants you carry your weapon into his Church.

When he tells you "No," are you going to continue to do so? Against the direct, expressed wishes of the person who has both spiritual and physical authority over the community and building?

And he will tell you "No."

Will you continue to insist you're performing a service by disobeying your spiritual elder?

 

[morph4me]

jks9199 used the word "mass," so I assume he's Catholic. In the Catholic faith, the Bishop is the ultimate authority over the parishes within the diocese.

Pretend you're in his shoes.

Now, go ask the Bishop if he wants you carry your weapon into his Church.

When he tells you "No," are you going to continue to do so? Against the direct, expressed wishes of the person who has both spiritual and physical authority over the community and building?

And he will tell you "No."

Will you continue to insist you're performing a service by disobeying your spiritual elder?

jks9199 is a LEO and in some jurisdictions LEO's are required to be armed, even when off duty, I can't speak for him but it may be a job requirement for him, is he supposed to stop going to mass or quit his job?

I don't ask anyone's permission to defend myself or my family, nor will I. The bishop may not be around to protect someone who needs it, and I wouldn't want to bother him with the spiritual matter of presiding at a funeral. I wouldn't say disobeying a spirtual elder is performing a service any more than I would say

If a Church's message is peace and "turning the other cheek," and you enter that place with the willingness and intent to simply ignore that message, then frankly, you do not hold to that faith and do the community a disservice by remaining a member there.

We are all entitled to believe and worship as our heart dictates and our sensibilities allow, that's the only point that I was trying to make.

 

[jks9199]

jks9199 is a LEO and in some jurisdictions LEO's are required to be armed, even when off duty, I can't speak for him but it may be a job requirement for him, is he supposed to stop going to mass or quit his job?

I don't ask anyone's permission to defend myself or my family, nor will I. The bishop may not be around to protect someone who needs it, and I wouldn't want to bother him with the spiritual matter of presiding at a funeral. I wouldn't say disobeying a spirtual elder is performing a service any more than I would say

We are all entitled to believe and worship as our heart dictates and our sensibilities allow, that's the only point that I was trying to make.

I'm not required or urged by GOs to be armed where I attend church; I don't live in the jurisdiction that employs me. I have attended Mass with uniformed officers; should they secure their weapon before Mass starts?

There is a vast difference between being prepared to take action (including having already developed more than one plan for how I can do so) and looking for an opportunity. I hope and pray that I never fire my weapon outside of the range -- not even to put down a critter. But I have been entrusted with the authority to carry a firearm and to act. Were someone to enter the church intent on harming another, and I'm present, am I supposed to simply watch, and suggest that the victim "turn the other cheek?" Or, perhaps, am I there because I have the ability to prevent that harm? The Church and Scripture both recognize that there is a time and a place for defense of self or others (or why do you train in martial arts? Should you be willing to submit to a beating and turn the other cheek?); even Christ himself forcibly threw the money lenders from the temple, right? But note that I did not ever imply that my ONLY action would be to draw dawn and shoot someone. Depending on the exact circumstances, that is ONE action I might take. In slightly different circumstances, I may simply quietly dial 911, and update the dispatcher on what's happening. In yet another -- I may do nothing at all, or I may simply tackle the person. In the scenario posited by the original poster, I suppose I haven't been clear. My first effort would be to try to calm the situation down, or get the most worked up people out of the room (whether it's a conference room or a chapel or other santuary is immaterial), and only if other alternatives didn't work would I resort to using force. Even then, I would only use the minimum force necessary.

What this really is getting at is a fundamental difference in a cop's mindset from much of the public; it's the difference that Dave Grossman describes as being a "sheepdog." Another way to think of it is a "what when" mentality; instead of saying "what if" something bad happens, cops learn to think "what do I do WHEN it happens". It's our job to think about the bad things that can happen, and to be prepared for them. We have to think about the unthinkable... because when it happens, it's our job to run towards it. Just like sparring and kata are part of preparing to fight, thinking and planning is part of preparing for these sorts of situations.

 

[KP.]

jks9199 is a LEO and in some jurisdictions LEO's are required to be armed, even when off duty, I can't speak for him but it may be a job requirement for him, is he supposed to stop going to mass or quit his job?

He may be in a position where he needs to determine whom he serves and what he believes.

I don't ask anyone's permission to defend myself or my family, nor will I.

That's fine. But in a large number of cases, being contemptuous of one's spiritual elders and tradition, as well as possibly committing trespass by ignoring expressed wishes, is a good sign that a person isn't really a member of the community in the first place -- so why be there at all?

The bishop may not be around to protect someone who needs it,

Perhaps extolling his flock to abandon violence and to live the faith they profess is being far more protective than endorsing violence.

and I wouldn't want to bother him with the spiritual matter of presiding at a funeral.

And perhaps it would be his privilege to do so.

We are all entitled to believe and worship as our heart dictates and our sensibilities allow, that's the only point that I was trying to make.

Certainly. But if one chooses to be a member of a spiritual community without any intent of living by the communities precepts, then one is precisely not worshiping as their heart dictates.

 

[elder999]

This woman did a good job. She did her job, when a gunman showed up at the church where she was a security guard, and she shot him.

If jks1999 carries a firearm into church, and no one knows except his family and God, then it's between him and God. Not him and what the church says, not him and his bishop, and not him, his bishop and anyone else posting here-it's between him and God.

While the answers of law-enforcement should be welcome here, they're obviously going to be different. Don't think that's what the OP meant, anyway.

 

[KP.]

If jks1999 carries a firearm into church, and no one knows except his family and God, then it's between him and God. Not him and what the church says, not him and his bishop, and not him, his bishop and anyone else posting here-it's between him and God.

In the Catholic church (and again I'm making an assumption based on jks1999's use of the work 'mass') it is very much between him and his Bishop in several ways.

The ecclesial office, headed by the Bishop, owns the property. If nothing else, it may well be an act of trespass.

Under canon law, to the extent that the Bishop deems his instruction to be a spiritual matter, it is the church member's duty to respond appropriately.

As a spiritual matter, Catholic theology does not allow for the faithful to merely ignore spiritual commands.

Now, in less formally codified religious structures, "between him and God" may well be true. Catholic theology however clearly makes the Bishop the arbiter of that relationship.

 

[elder999]

In the Catholic church (and again I'm making an assumption based on jks1999's use of the work 'mass')

Episcopalians, Greek and Russian Orthodox, and the Ethiopian Coptic Church also call the eucharist "mass."

it is very much between him and his Bishop in several ways


The ecclesial office, headed by the Bishop, owns the property. If nothing else, it may well be an act of trespass.

Not if they haven't said as much,haven't posted a sign, and don't know that he's carrying.

Under canon law, to the extent that the Bishop deems his instruction to be a spiritual matter, it is the church member's duty to respond appropriately.

Not if he hasn't received the instruction, and the bishop doesn't know he's carrying

As a spiritual matter, Catholic theology does not allow for the faithful to merely ignore spiritual commands.

Not if he hasn't received that command, and the bishop doesn't know he's carrying

Now, in less formally codified religious structures, "between him and God" may well be true. Catholic theology however clearly makes the Bishop the arbiter of that relationship.

Not if the bishop doesn't know he's carrying

Pretty certain there's nothing specific in Catholic doctrine about carrying any weapon-including firearms-into church. Heck, swords have been carried into the churches since Constantine. :lfao:

 

[celtic_crippler]

That's kind of a trick question......

I don't want to hurt anybody.

If I use self-defense it's because I feel threatened and the only consideration environment brings to the situation are things like: where's the nearest exit, is there anything nearby I can use as a weapon, and things like that that always apply.

Other than that, place has little else to do with it. I'm going to do whatever is necessary to defend myself.

 

[Deaf Smith]

All I can say about the Catholic Church and packing heat is this. Here in Texas I know of no bishop nor priest to prohibit carrying in church. There is no 30.06 signs anywhere (which would be needed as the state law is kind of clear on this, even for churches as they have to give 'effective notice'.)

And even more, the bishop would find out real quick how fast donations would go down if they pulled such a stunt here.

And yes, I pack heat in church (and also yes, I'm Catholic and we do give quite a bit to the church in $$$.)

Deaf

 

[Tez3]

How incredibly appropriate for this thread.

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet."

These words, roughly translated as "Kill them all. God will know his own" were attributed to the Legate of Pope Innocent III, Arnaud Amaury, also known as the "Butcher of Beziers". Charged with the task of eliminating the Albigensian herecy in Occitan in 1209, (SE France) he cornered a few hundred suspects in the good Catholic city of Beziers. When the city-folk wouldn't or couldn't surrender the accused, he is said to have uttered these noble and inspiring words, ordering the murder of every man, woman and child in the town... a total population estimated at 20,000. A huge number took refuge in the city's cathedral where they were burned alive. The rest were hunted down like vermin and their bodies were playfully dragged through the streets behind horses.

A great way to respect life in a holy place, eh? You got any other cute mottos? How about some good Nazi slogans? "Work will make you free". That was over the gate of Auschwitz, I believe.

The saying 'kill them all and let G-d sort them out' is actually a well known saying. it's not a saying made up by Jdokan who I imagine probably knows it's origins as do you and I.

It's a saying well known among US military personnel who've been seen wearing Tshirts with the slogan on, surprising at least one British Army padre in Afghanistan. It's been heard alot in Iraq and Afghanistan when american soldiers have been involved in engagements.

The quote is only attributed to Amaury, no sources at the time quote him as saying this. The first time the quote is attributed to him is decades later by the German Cistercian monk Cesar d'Heisterbach in his Dialogus Miraculorum.

 

[KP.]

Not if the bishop doesn't know he's carrying

Not necessarily true. if the Bishop has issued any sort of formal pronouncement, letter, or sermon on the topic, then he has been told.

 

[elder999]

Not necessarily true. if the Bishop has issued any sort of formal pronouncement, letter, or sermon on the topic, then he has been told.

Yeah, but you said to ask him, on some assumption of what the bishop might say.

Fact is, there is no formal doctrine in the Catholic church for bearing arms within church.

Fact also is, several diocese and other authorities are examining the utility of having armed people in church, in light of events like those I posted in Colorado Springs. In fact, I'd be surprised if more than few Catholic priests weren't going armed, in light of some of the more sordid history of some of their membership-had a Catholic priest killed around this way, allegedly for something like that a few years back.....

Fact is, if he hasn't been told, and he hasn't asked, and he isn't telling, then it's between him and God, like I said..