Death sentence on television?

[ballen0351]

The poor baby?
See, we are having this pro-life problem of definition here again: What does constitute life?
Too many people believe it's the first cluster of unrefined cells, in the olden days the Kelts believed a baby was not life until it had received it's first nourishment to be welcomed into the circle of the living.

Also, as your post proofs it, yet one more time, just the term 'abortion' has the negative ring to it that the acting mother-to-be is automatically guilty without anybody knowing the circumstance of her decision.

A friend of mine told me once about 12yo girls she had on the beds on the labor/maternity ward, delivering babies...I am sure that is a perfectly normal course to let babies have babies...

that's a good point when does life begin? Can a single cell be alive? Well science has proven that there are single cell life forms. So how can we say yes a single cell is alive but group of cells that are in the process of forning a body is not alive? So if we are honest and say well yes the cells are alive then we kill them when they are aborted.
If they are not alive then at what point do the become alive? Can we pin point that time? Is it 4 weeks 6 weeks 8 weeks?

 

[Blade96]

What about the baby's right to stay alive?

Lots of people in hospitals have 'the right to stay alive' but we dont force people to donate their body parts (kidneys for example) why should a woman be forced to give over her body for nine months if she says no?

I feel strongly about this topic for very personal reasons and I may let that cloud my judgment and resort to slightly nasty remarks. I was adopted. Had my Birth mother decided to take the easy road and abort me I would not be here. My children would not be here their children ( when they are older and have kids they are too young right now) will not be here. I finally met my birth mother when I was 22. We talked and she said she was actually on her way to a clinic got a block away and changed her mind. Put up the consequence of her actions of unprotected sex for 9 months and gave me up. I was adopted by a very great family who I love and they love me. So for me I feel I’m a voice for the babies that are killed at a rate of 40 million a year.
Even right this very second as I type this post I see my kids playing on the floor and I cant imagine aborting them. They are the love of my life and if I was not able to care for them I would at least like to know some place out there they were alive and being cared for if not by me then by someone.

I am glad your story had a happy ending. i really am. but what if the thousands of others who dont? One of my friends got adopted by a good family too. But most people do not get adopted, I've read the statistics.

nobodys forcing anyone to be a parent we have adoptions in this country remember.

if women are forced to give birth they are a parents they're a 'mother' biologically even if they give it up for adoption. That woman was forced to become a mother.

no matter how you want to rationalize it having an abortion is killing a life. Your friend had one and didn't tell anyone? Why? She ashamed of what she did because she knows it's wrong.

No, she didnt tell because of the judgemental statements such as this one here.

you cry about the poor girl who has sex because of the pressure. What about the poor baby that's dead.

the 'poor baby' dies in a couple of minutes, people who are born and live terrible lives suffer for a long time. I'm more upset by a child born into this world by parents who never wanted him, shunted through unstable foster home after unstable foster home, maybe suffering who knows quite what type of abuse along the way, developing behavior problems maybe become an addict because of it and renders him then unadoptable....you get the picture. I'm much more upset about that than I am about blastocysts or zygotes or fetuses/whatever that are killed in a couple of minutes. Their lives and deaths are easy by comparison to what goes on in the real world!

if your willing to risk your life and have unprotected sex because people were teasing you then you may need to see some professional help you seem to have self esteem issues.

I do. and i did. and i suffer from depression and take anti depressants. But it shows there are many people out there like me, its just so easy to sit back and say we should 'keep our legs closed' Most of us suffer problems and we arent likely to be thinking about that or fully able to do that, why do you just sit back and make these kinds of judgemental statements?

 

[Tez3]

that's a good point when does life begin? Can a single cell be alive? Well science has proven that there are single cell life forms. So how can we say yes a single cell is alive but group of cells that are in the process of forning a body is not alive? So if we are honest and say well yes the cells are alive then we kill them when they are aborted.
If they are not alive then at what point do the become alive? Can we pin point that time? Is it 4 weeks 6 weeks 8 weeks?

I think that's something people decide for themselves either with scientific proof or religious or moral belief. However there has to be a point in law which is very prosaic I'm afraid, where life is deemed to be a 'person' or not.

 

[billc]

I am for the death penalty for murderers but saving the life of a baby? Nine months and the expenses covered by the government if necassary by adoptive parents if not, is not a problem for me. It is a baby. I have held babies. I know what a baby is and I have to say, the ability to dehumanize a baby is a little amazing. One of the best things about a baby is that belly laugh you can get when you find some silly thing that catches their infant sense of humor. It is amazing. Another amazing thing is their fingers. I look at their tiny fingers, at how the joints are completely like an adults but so tiny. It amazes me when I look at their hands.

Granfire, I think we are a little more scientifically aware than the early Celts. I hope science and medical technology keeps advancing, which it won't with obama care. One day the artificial womb may be a reality and these unviable tissue masses will be viable from day one. What will the pro-abortion side say then?

 

[Tez3]

Lots of people in hospitals have 'the right to stay alive' but we dont force people to donate their body parts (kidneys for example) why should a woman be forced to give over her body for nine months if she says no?

We shouldn't force people to stay alive either which I believe these people will want as well, the right to die is as important as the right to live.



I am glad your story had a happy ending. i really am. but what if the thousands of others who dont? One of my friends got adopted by a good family too. But most people do not get adopted, I've read the statistics.

True, and this is just in affluent countries like the US and in most parts of Europe, how much worst is it in poor countries?



if women are forced to give birth they are a parents they're a 'mother' biologically even if they give it up for adoption. That woman was forced to become a mother.

I think they actually see it as a fitting 'punishment' after one shouldn't have sex outside marriage right?



No, she didnt tell because of the judgemental statements such as this one here.

No one has the right to judge another like this, it was her decision, her choice and good on her! I might not have made the decision I don't know, I've not been in her situation but I would support her all the way!



the 'poor baby' dies in a couple of minutes, people who are born and live terrible lives suffer for a long time. I'm more upset by a child born into this world by parents who never wanted him, shunted through unstable foster home after unstable foster home, maybe suffering who knows quite what type of abuse along the way, developing behavior problems maybe become an addict because of it and renders him then unadoptable....you get the picture. I'm much more upset about that than I am about blastocysts or zygotes or fetuses/whatever that are killed in a couple of minutes. Their lives and deaths are easy by comparison to what goes on in the real world!



I do. and i did. and i suffer from depression and take anti depressants. But it shows there are many people out there like me, its just so easy to sit back and say we should 'keep our legs closed' Most of us suffer problems and we arent likely to be thinking about that or fully able to do that, why do you just sit back and make these kinds of judgemental statements?

It seems forgivenees and understanding aren't always something people care about so much as judging and deriding others. It makes some feel superior to look down on others, Blade dear, don't get upset, live well instead that's always the best revenge on those who would bring you down.

 

[billc]

Well, you could make a law that asks the child at say 5 or 6 if they would rather have their life over or if they would like to be moved around foster homes. It would be allowing for choice. In the states we need to streamline the adoption process. It would save a lot of unborn lives. Also, this isn't the 19th century where woman have to hide unmarried pregnancies. With easier adoptions abortions would be seen as less necessary to young girls. I mean, come on, it is so open now a girl went through having an abortion on MTV. I think the time for adoption over abortion is here.

 

[Tez3]

I am for the death penalty for murderers but saving the life of a baby? Nine months and the expenses covered by the government if necassary by adoptive parents if not, is not a problem for me. It is a baby. I have held babies. I know what a baby is and I have to say, the ability to dehumanize a baby is a little amazing. One of the best things about a baby is that belly laugh you can get when you find some silly thing that catches their infant sense of humor. It is amazing. Another amazing thing is their fingers. I look at their tiny fingers, at how the joints are completely like an adults but so tiny. It amazes me when I look at their hands.

Granfire, I think we are a little more scientifically aware than the early Celts. I hope science and medical technology keeps advancing, which it won't with obama care. One day the artificial womb may be a reality and these unviable tissue masses will be viable from day one. What will the pro-abortion side say then?

Do you think then that women who have abortions hate babies? do you not think that perhaps they love them enough not to bring one into a life of hell, suffering and despair? You don't in all truth know why each woman who has had an abortion took that decision, until you do you will never have a true picture of what went into making that decision. You can believe all you like that it's careless women forgetting to take their pills or not use a condom (do ask how the IUD/coil works btw) but there's far more to it than that. I won't condemn people I don't know in circumstances I know nothing about who make decisions to have abortions.

 

[MJS]

I'm not against abortion, but I do feel that there should be a good reason for having one, before its done. For example...if someone was the victim of a rape, sure, in that case, I could see the woman wanting to have one. Perhaps she doesnt want to carry this memory with her for 9mos.

OTOH, the 15yo that has sex, gets pregnant, but suddenly the light goes off, and she thinks, "Oh, what am I going to do now? How am I going to raise this baby??" should not be able to run to the nearest clinic and get an abortion, because she had sex, and didn't understand the consequences. Of course, this goes back to the education, which the majority of it should fall on the parents.

 

[Blade96]

In the states we need to streamline the adoption process. It would save a lot of unborn lives. Also, this isn't the 19th century where woman have to hide unmarried pregnancies. With easier adoptions abortions would be seen as less necessary to young girls. I mean, come on, it is so open now a girl went through having an abortion on MTV. I think the time for adoption over abortion is here.

This, I agree with. If birth control were more accessible, if the adoption process was much better than it is, if health care were better, if the minimum wage was higher, all those factors would help to reduce the number of abortions. The problem is that a lot of pro lifers dont wanna talk about sex ed, more accessible BC, and the like. They only wanna talk about abstinenceand forcing women to stay pregnant and give birth by making abortion illegal.

 

[billc]

I am not condemning people, but there are alternatives to abortion that are better than killing the child. Adoption is one of the biggest answers out there. You say that we can't know what is going through the woman's decision, but we cannot know where the life of that child will lead either. They could wind up in a great home with loving parents, especially when people are actively seeking out babies to adopt. The government doesn't do anything well, but I have to go with the decision to let a baby live and have a chance at life.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not against abortion, but I do feel that there should be a good reason for having one, before its done. For example...if someone was the victim of a rape, sure, in that case, I could see the woman wanting to have one. Perhaps she doesnt want to carry this memory with her for 9mos.

OTOH, the 15yo that has sex, gets pregnant, but suddenly the light goes off, and she thinks, "Oh, what am I going to do now? How am I going to raise this baby??" should not be able to run to the nearest clinic and get an abortion, because she had sex, and didn't understand the consequences. Of course, this goes back to the education, which the majority of it should fall on the parents.

If the girl is younger than 15, at 12 or 13 for example, there is a good medical reason to have an abortion, a child's body is rarely equipped to carry a baby at that age, neither the foetus or the girl is unlikely to be unharmed by the pregnancy.

I think a good many 15/16 year olds do actually have their babies which are either adopted or the parents help bring it up, we certainly have many teen mothers here. Abortion didn't seem to be their choice, I think it rarely is to be honest. The sheer amount of young unmarried mothers seems to disprove that abortion is the first choice of these girls. I totally agree though that the parents are responsible but then again there seems to be a lot of them who were very young when their children were born so I guess the girls certainly learn from their parents or mother at least.

 

[billc]

Sex ed. isn't going to solve this problem. We've had sex ed. all over the states and we will always have kids having babies, especially kids with bad or no parents. It still doesn't justify killing a baby. Especiallly when many on the pro-abortion side will not execute murderers like jeffery Dhamer or John Wayne Gacy. They will spend all the money it takes to keep these guys alive, but immediatly want to adopt the abortion route for the innocent baby.

 

[billc]

What if instead of calling it the death penalty or capital punishment we called it societally unwanted mature foetus's. Or unviable adult tissure cells. Would that make it easier to execute someone with the bodies of over 30 teenage boys and men in their basement floor?

 

[Tez3]

I am not condemning people, but there are alternatives to abortion that are better than killing the child. Adoption is one of the biggest answers out there. You say that we can't know what is going through the woman's decision, but we cannot know where the life of that child will lead either. They could wind up in a great home with loving parents, especially when people are actively seeking out babies to adopt. The government doesn't do anything well, but I have to go with the decision to let a baby live and have a chance at life.

You are talking though of the healthy children who are born without problems, will people be so keen to adopt the very disabled children or the alcohol or drug damaged babies? It sounds ideal all babies being wanted ones and in happy homes but you know it's not going to work out like that. Will a family adopt a child knowing it will die in a year, and die in pain at that? will they adopt the baby with a condition that means they get worse and worse and end up deaf, blind and unable to do anything? Especially with the cost of medical care?
Would you allow a child to be born knowing it was going to suffer horrendously for it's short life? If a kitten or puppy were born so badly disabled it was going to be suffering piteously before it succumbed to inevitable death you would humanely put it down as indeed the old midwives used to do in the past when a baby that was so badly disabled it would only live a short life in pain, fear and suffering.

We don't live in an ideal world and hard decisions have to be made, they aren't made lightly nor with smiles on faces but with long, hard thought and sadness. it's a horrendous place to find yourself in, lets not make it worse by pretending all would be well if only they had the babies.

 

[billc]

A 12 or 13 year old who's life is in danger because of the pregnancy would fit my belief. the mother doesn't have to end her life to save the infants. Just about every other reason though is somewhat weak.

 

[billc]

Tez, you would be amazed at what people will do to adopt children. I see stories all the time of people who adopt children with horrible disabilities and help them to make lives for themeselves. It is one of the good things I see out of humanity. If they cannot be placed in these loving homes, then the state would need to take care of them or help the families that need the help. I saw a program with a woman who had 3 or 4 daughters, who because of medical mistakes, yes, here in the U. S., the girls lost the abilitly to see or hear. they were three helen kellers. I think that first, private charities should step in(Bill and Melinda Gates, Oprah, and Warren Buffet, I hope you do a lot of this stuff) and if not, I would be more than happy for tax dollars to help these families. I think we could shave the money out of the budget by getting rid of a few tiny wasteful programs. These girls needed 70,000 dollars a year each for the trained teachers to help them learn how to just live. Not to mention everything else that would go into their lives. Let's spend the money for the people who really need it.

 

[MJS]

I am not condemning people, but there are alternatives to abortion that are better than killing the child. Adoption is one of the biggest answers out there. You say that we can't know what is going through the woman's decision, but we cannot know where the life of that child will lead either. They could wind up in a great home with loving parents, especially when people are actively seeking out babies to adopt. The government doesn't do anything well, but I have to go with the decision to let a baby live and have a chance at life.

Yes, I understand that, however, as I said, in the end, like it or not, its the womans choice, as to what she wants to do, nobody elses. Perhaps she may not want to carry the child that was conceived via a rape, and again, that is her choice. Could that baby, should she decide to carry it, make someone, perhaps someone who can't have kids of their own, happy? Yes, its very possible, but again, its the womans choice.

 

[billc]

One example of many:

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=123280&catid=3

a couple fostered over 60 children.

 

[Tez3]

A 12 or 13 year old who's life is in danger because of the pregnancy would fit my belief. the mother doesn't have to end her life to save the infants. Just about every other reason though is somewhat weak.

so if you know at a few weeks into the pregnancy that the child if born is going to have a short life full of pain and misery you would still make the mother go through with the pregnancy, so she can spend nine months knowing the baby is going to be born with a condition that will make it's short life a living hell.

You'd make a woman who stupidly got pregnant because she didn't insist her rapist wore a condom has to give birth to a child which may well have AIDs for example, she has to feel the rapists child put there by force and pain grow inside her? hasn't she been violated enough with having to endure this? and if the woman kills herself rather than be forced to carry this baby?

That's just two thoughts I had, I can think of hundreds of other reasons a woman would need an abortion, not just for 'convenience'.

From what I've read of sex education in the States it doesn't seem very informative, at least not in the way Europeans approach it. The age it starts seems too old as well. the age they start with sex education in the Netherlands is at about 5, they have the lowest rate of unmarried teenage pregnancies in Europe as well as the highest average age for losing their virginity which is 19. they must be doing something right.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes, I understand that, however, as I said, in the end, like it or not, its the womans choice, as to what she wants to do, nobody elses. Perhaps she may not want to carry the child that was conceived via a rape, and again, that is her choice. Could that baby, should she decide to carry it, make someone, perhaps someone who can't have kids of their own, happy? Yes, its very possible, but again, its the womans choice.

Rape victims account fopr 1% of the 40 million abortions that are done a year.

Sad fact is this will never change until people decide that a human life is valuable and we should not be able to walk into a clinic have a baby sucked out of us and walk next door to the gas station and grab a soda and a bag of chips and head home.